Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

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This was 1996, before CSI, and similar shows. But even then, anyone would know that you need to hide, or dispose of, the tape and cord. Those were used in the crime. But plain legal pad paper and plain old sharpie? I think is is more than feasable that in 1996 the average person would not even realize those could be traced.

Heyya chlban,

pre-CSI, did Law and Order cover forensics?

http://www.mysterynet.com/tv/profiles/90s/
1990s Mystery Detective TV Shows
So far, three of the finest crime series of all time have been the linchpins of the Nineties: Law & Order (1990-), NYPD Blue (1993-), Homicide: Life on the Streets (1993-).
Murder One (1995-1997)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Justice
American Justice
A&E Network
September 15, 1992 – Final episode was made in 2005; currently being rerun under the title Notorious on The Biography Channel


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Detectives
The New Detectives
The Discovery Channel
October 1, 1996[SUP][4][/SUP] – May 2005



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_Files
Forensic Files

Original run April 21, 1996 - June 17, 2011

******************************
Columbo: Ransom For A Dead Man
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r-a-dead-man-1971/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
 
Yes, I would still maintain it is absurd. So now he/she/it (I will just go with he from here on, to keep it simple) breaks into the house, without leaving a trace of having done so, not once but twice? And if the plan is to frame the R's why not leave the cord and tape in the house as well? Wouldn't that be a lot better "proof" than a legal pad?

Sorry, I just cannot. Not even a little. Breaking in while they were gone and waiting? If they knew the R's plans, that is, IMO, plausable, if not likely. But again, why not leave the cord and tape when he is finished? If he left the notepad and Sharpie, why was he so tidy about the other items?

See, this is one of the really the big sticking points for me with IDI. The RN. Even if I can rationalize the behavior of the R's after the crime, I really don't see how we get past the RN. Even if I accept, in theory, that Patsy did not write it. There is still the fact that it was written on their notepad, with their sharpie, it "sounds" like Patsy. It is a lot.

What it really looks like is that whether it was only one of them or both of them, and I have always leaned toward John not being involved in the actual crime or early cover up, but either way it looks like people who are not criminals or forensic experts. This was 1996, before CSI, and similar shows. But even then, anyone would know that you need to hide, or dispose of, the tape and cord. Those were used in the crime. But plain legal pad paper and plain old sharpie? I think is is more than feasable that in 1996 the average person would not even realize those could be traced.

I wouldn't have known it back then.

I just don't know. I think I would have to see a plausable explanation for the RN to really ever tip over into IDI.

If it was the Ramsey's, one or both, that was their huge, glaring error. The RN. Perhaps that is why I have always had trouble believing John was involved at that point. I just cannot imagine two relatively intelligent people agreeing that the RN was a good idea. But I can TOTALLY see Patsy thinking it was.

I also cannot help but notice that in several other cases since then, where the child has mysteriously "disappeared" never to be found, and the parents never to be charged, there was never a Ransom Note.
I do think it likely that the killer entered the home prior to the night of the crime and had a look around, but I don’t necessarily think that he removed the notepad in advance; but, he could have.

I don’t think the killer was necessarily trying to frame anyone, although he may have been trying to direct investigators in (and hence, away from) a certain direction. See here: http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh <1>

I do think this killer had a plan and that he brought with him only those items he could not do without; for example: cord and tape.

Perhaps, the cord was used in its entirety. Perhaps, the roll of tape was removed out of forensic concern (sticky sides of the roll collect fibers, prints, dust, filings, hairs, etc).

Some have speculated that he brought only a single piece of tape (stuck to a flashlight, or inside of his coat, etc) and that it, too, like the cord, was used in its entirety.

I don’t have an opinion on that, but, in such a case the roll and remainder of the cord were not removed from the house because they were never in the house to begin with.

If RDI, the Ramseys disposed of the roll of tape and the remainder of the cord. This would have been done out of forensic concern. In such a case, it would be reasonable to say that they didn’t want the cord and tape used in the crime to be connected to them. This seems a reasonable thing to deduce, but it is essentially disproved by the paint brush handle tied to the garrote and the brush end in the paint tote. It is disproved by the so-called practice note, it is disproved by the notepad itself, it is disproved by the pen in the cup and the 2 ½ pages of handwriting. Which brings us back to the note...

IMO, the ransom note is evidence of IDI. Yes, it seems to have been written in the house, but if an intruder was in the house, than an intruder could have written it.
.

<1> http://tinyurl.com/l5j7787 http://tinyurl.com/mxr5xf5 http://tinyurl.com/lvgzfx5
...

AK
 
IMHO - I suspect that the perp was in the house for some period of time beforehand. The reason for the length of the note and much of what he writes? Frankly, I think it's as simple as saying because he had that much time and for lack of a better word was "bored". The ransom note may have even been an afterthought after roaming the house a bit. Saw pad, saw paper, started writing. I think, whether consciously or subconsciously, it served 2 purposes for the perp. It terrified and toyed with the Ramsey's when the perp knew there was nothing to the note. It also potentially bought more time to distance himself from the scene. If, on the off chance the Ramsey's didn't contact LE until after no call came, it gave the perp that many more hours to distance himself and establish an alibi.

Can anyone point me to experts who state the letter was written by a female? I am far from any kind of expert, but that looks nothing like any woman's writing I have ever seen, whether they were trying to alter their writing or not. TIA.
 
IMHO - I suspect that the perp was in the house for some period of time beforehand. The reason for the length of the note and much of what he writes? Frankly, I think it's as simple as saying because he had that much time and for lack of a better word was "bored".

If he was bored, he can leave the house and come back.
The Ramsy's did have a TV, Cable, & VCR. What's stopping him from catching "It's a Wonderful Life"? It's not like there is anyone in the house? Or he can read a book too, if he's that inclined.

The fact that he was bored enough to leave 3 pages of his own handwriting would lead to him being an amateur criminal.

Plus why the hell would he choose a sharpie of all things? Even if it is the closest thing, it isn't the choice of written implement most people would choose. He does have plenty of time to find a good ball point pen among the Ramseys things.

Why write a Ransom note, why not write a nasty little story about how John Ramsey likes to molest baby ducks ins his spare time. If it's for fun, why does it need to be left for the Ramsey's?

Saw pad, saw paper, started writing

Of which the first thing that comes to his mind is a ransom note asking for coincidentally for $118,000. And coincidentally he happened to brought himself rope and tape. The tools of kidnapping.

If he wrote the note he did so not out of boredom, but out of necessity. It was vital to his plans. So vital that it needed to be the first thing found!

Can anyone point me to experts who state the letter was written by a female?
You really don't need to be an expert to tell the age, gender, social background and occupation of the writer. Use your own common sense. Use yourself and your family as a guide. The answer will be obvious.
 
Personally, if I was that bored in the midst of a crime, I would be using the pad to draw and write out my strategy for getting away with the murder. or trying to brainstorm some ideas for how I'm going to go through with this murder/kidnapping/molestation.
 
Personally, if I was that bored in the midst of a crime, I would be using the pad to draw and write out my strategy for getting away with the murder. or trying to brainstorm some ideas for how I'm going to go through with this murder/kidnapping/molestation.
Not a bad idea, IMO. (Type A, here. ;))

I do wonder if the missing pages have any significance to the crime or to the perp. If he tore them out, what purpose did they serve?...

Just a curiosity I have.
 
Back to endless source of mysteries- ransom.
It advised that Mr. Ramsey takes adequate size attaché to the bank. But…“when you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag”. It said “will put”, it`s perp `s choice, it`s an order. What if Ramseys did not have it handy? No worry, there it was, brown paper bag, waiting, in the quest bed room. A rope was inside.
Isn`t it scary?
It`s not a coincidence. One more riddle for us.
 
I feel that the killer was at the party they had a few days before, took a few pages of paper from the notepad, but used only 3 of them. Took one of their pens to write the 3 page letter all done the same night of the party. Remember that 911 call that was made from the home the night of that party ? I believe it was made by the killer, to see just how fast the police could get there and also a sick warning to the Ramsey's that they will be calling 911 soon. I believe he wrote the note before he went back and broke into the basement. But I do believe he was bold enough to wait for them to come home and fall asleep before grabbing their daughter. This was not the first time this killer has broken into someones home, he was too comfortable for this to be his first time. I aslo believe he had killed before and after and was a much older person who was not worried about being caught. He could have known John from the San Francisco office of Access Graphics, perhaps worked for him ? I think the killer was from California and traveled to Boulder for work there, maybe he was fired from the SF Office ?
 
Can anyone point me to experts who state the letter was written by a female? I am far from any kind of expert, but that looks nothing like any woman's writing I have ever seen, whether they were trying to alter their writing or not. TIA.

FBI: woman or "genteel" man @ http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/08/ramsey.ransom.note/index.html?_s=PM:US

FBI profiler Van Zandt: well educated female 29-40 yrs old @ http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?7898-Intruder-Theory&p=127316#post127316
 
An excerpt from the 09.08.97 CNN article, DA releases JonBenet ransom note:

"Clinton Van Zandt, a former investigator with the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit, said that although the writer threatened violence if his or her demands were not met, the tone of the note suggests that the author was a woman or "genteel" man who is an acquaintance of John Ramsey's."


Source: http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/08/ramsey.ransom.note/index.html?_s=PM:US
 
"Clinton Van Zandt, a former investigator with the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit, said that although the writer threatened violence if his or her demands were not met, the tone of the note suggests that the author was a woman or "genteel" man who is an acquaintance of John Ramsey's.

"Genteel"-- I assume that was a polite way of saying an effeminate man.
 
I feel that the killer was at the party they had a few days before, took a few pages of paper from the notepad, but used only 3 of them. Took one of their pens to write the 3 page letter all done the same night of the party. Remember that 911 call that was made from the home the night of that party ? I believe it was made by the killer, to see just how fast the police could get there and also a sick warning to the Ramsey's that they will be calling 911 soon. I believe he wrote the note before he went back and broke into the basement. But I do believe he was bold enough to wait for them to come home and fall asleep before grabbing their daughter. This was not the first time this killer has broken into someones home, he was too comfortable for this to be his first time. I aslo believe he had killed before and after and was a much older person who was not worried about being caught. He could have known John from the San Francisco office of Access Graphics, perhaps worked for him ? I think the killer was from California and traveled to Boulder for work there, maybe he was fired from the SF Office ?

Sandy. Good to see you over from Zodiackiller.com. :). Been a while.

I feel that the killer was at the party they had a few days before, took a few pages of paper from the notepad, but used only 3 of them. Took one of their pens to write the 3 page letter all done the same night of the party

But for what benefit? The only use would be to frame the Patsy Ramsey. What benefit does taking the paper do?. And why just take the paper instead of the whole pad? They'll notice the pen missing as much as they would the pad or care about neither.

Remember that 911 call that was made from the home the night of that party ? I believe it was made by the killer, to see just how fast the police could get there and also a sick warning to the Ramsey's that they will be calling 911 soon.

That theory would make more sense if there were was a fellow conspirator that was actually going to do the act. The caller would then have an alibi.

This would also work better in a kidnapping scenario.

This was not the first time this killer has broken into someones home, he was too comfortable for this to be his first time. I aslo believe he had killed before and after and was a much older person who was not worried about being caught.

He's not in the house that long if he stole the pad and pen earlier. Nor is he in the house that long if he's at the party. He only has to enter the house after the ramseys have fallen asleep. The only extra time spent is the time taken to "prepare" JonBenet's body.


I believe he wrote the note before he went back and broke into the basement. But I do believe he was bold enough to wait for them to come home and fall asleep before grabbing their daughter.

He could have known John from the San Francisco office of Access Graphics, perhaps worked for him ? I think the killer was from California and traveled to Boulder for work there, maybe he was fired from the SF Office ?

Sandy, your not going to say you think this guy is Zodiac, are you?

The disgruntle employee angle was looked at already by the police.

The information this killer had was info that would have been gathered by knowing Patsy Ramsey. There is nothing that particularly says the killer would have to know John or his business that well. Interestingly the killer never gets into exactly how John's business serves the person or persons he disrespects.

For a kidnapping attempt, yes.
 
I feel that the killer was at the party they had a few days before, took a few pages of paper from the notepad, but used only 3 of them. Took one of their pens to write the 3 page letter all done the same night of the party

Also

1. Why return the pen back if it was missing for the last few days? Why even bring it back with you to the break in?

2. Three pages being carried out. Wouldn't they be folded or severely creased after so much time. Especially if the killer just shoved them in his pocket. purse or whatever?

3. Why would you even risk being caught or alerting the Ramsey's by stealing a pen and pad that you can buy the same type of at any store?
 
It advised that Mr. Ramsey takes adequate size attaché to the bank. But&#8230;&#8220;when you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag&#8221;. It said &#8220;will put&#8221;, it`s perp `s choice, it`s an order. What if Ramseys did not have it handy? No worry, there it was, brown paper bag, waiting, in the quest bed room. A rope was inside.

Don't most people who shop have brown bags laying around? People get them when shopping in grocery stores all the time. It's not really a stretch to assume the Ramsey's would have a brown paper bag in their house.

Not to mention shoving money in grocery bags is as common crime movie trope as the attache suitcase.

Much more interesting is the use of the phrase "adequate" sized attache case. Adequate size for what, I wonder. I'm pretty sure if the Ramsey's need to use a second attache case, a ransomer would not care. But why would he care in this case? Unless of course, something else was supposed to be in the attaches case.
 
I feel that the killer was at the party they had a few days before, took a few pages of paper from the notepad, but used only 3 of them. Took one of their pens to write the 3 page letter all done the same night of the party. Remember that 911 call that was made from the home the night of that party ? I believe it was made by the killer, to see just how fast the police could get there and also a sick warning to the Ramsey's that they will be calling 911 soon. I believe he wrote the note before he went back and broke into the basement. But I do believe he was bold enough to wait for them to come home and fall asleep before grabbing their daughter. This was not the first time this killer has broken into someones home, he was too comfortable for this to be his first time. I aslo believe he had killed before and after and was a much older person who was not worried about being caught. He could have known John from the San Francisco office of Access Graphics, perhaps worked for him ? I think the killer was from California and traveled to Boulder for work there, maybe he was fired from the SF Office ?

I agree with this. It makes sense this person had access to the house before that night and just took what he needed with him so it would not point back to him.
I don't know where the killer came from but I believe they knew him in some capacity.
 
I also tend to believe the perp accessed the home prior to the 25th. He may have been in the home on the 23rd; whether he was a "guest" @ the party, I'm not so sure...
 
Anthony Allen Shore:

"'He said in a calm voice, 'I'm just here to rob your house', 'said the woman, now 25. Shore then covered her eyes and mouth with duct tape and bound her hands behind her back, she said.

'I had to do something'. 'He used a knife to cut off my panties,' the woman said. 'As I was screaming, he got upset and told me I was being too loud.'

Then she felt hands around her throat. 'I kind of came out of my stupor and realized I had to do something. If I don't do something, I'm going to die,' she said.

She was able to kick him away, but he threatened her before leaving the house.

'He said he knows everything about me. He'd been watching me come home from school. He knew that I played soccer,' she said."

http://murderpedia.org/male.S/s/shore-anthony.htm

Keith Aaron Schwinniman:

"Police learned last month that Schwinaman's DNA profile matches that connected with three unsolved cases, the first on July 3, 1993. A woman living in the 3000 block of 29th Street in Boulder said a man jumped on her as she slept, tied her hands behind her back and raped her at knifepoint. He also stole money from her purse, police said.

The second attack happened Sept. 24, 1993, in the 4900 block of Thunderbird Drive in Boulder. The victim told police she was awakened in the middle of the night by a man covering her mouth. He tied her hands behind her back with a black cord and raped her, according to police reports. He then rifled through her backpack and stole $19.

On July 18, 1996, a woman called police to say a man had broken into her Lafayette home in the 1300 block of Alexandria Street and raped her. She said the man crawled into her bed and placed his hand over her mouth, saying: 'Don't move. Don't scream. If you make a noise I'll kill you and your kid,' according to police reports. He then taped her hands together, performed oral sex on her, raped her and then ordered her to perform oral sex on him.

...

Schwinaman was convicted of sex assault on a child in Boulder in 1995. In May 2000, Schwinaman violated his probation and was sentenced to 21/2 years in prison. Paroled in March, he registered as a sex offender in Lafayette &#8212; listing 1306 Vesta Circle as his address &#8212; until he was again taken into custody for parole violation.

Schwinaman has an extensive criminal record in Colorado dating back to 1984, according to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation."

http://www.webbsleuths.com/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=131&forum=jbr

Maybe he's the "Amy" attacker/intruder, someone "like" him; a twisted BTK-type; or some freak like Brian David Mitchell...
 
I don't know where the killer came from but I believe they knew him in some capacity.

Why would he need to know John? Why could he not know Patsy, only? Why would John necessarily need to be the subject of vengeance. It could be Patsy. Or even JonBenet. The killer could be the mother or father of a losing contestant in one of the pageants.
 
Don't most people who shop have brown bags laying around? People get them when shopping in grocery stores all the time. It's not really a stretch to assume the Ramsey's would have a brown paper bag in their house.

Not to mention shoving money in grocery bags is as common crime movie trope as the attache suitcase.

Much more interesting is the use of the phrase "adequate" sized attache case. Adequate size for what, I wonder. I'm pretty sure if the Ramsey's need to use a second attache case, a ransomer would not care. But why would he care in this case? Unless of course, something else was supposed to be in the attaches case.


Not every household has brown grocery bags. We don`t.
Even if Ramsey`s had in household brown paper bags, how killer could be sure about it. He was not, that&#8217;s` why the bag was left.

This particular bag stands out of the row of the other innocent grocery bags if stacked under the sink or elsewhere in the kitchen. This one brown paper bag was innocently looking to other people on the streets, while carried in the perps hands to the Ramsey`s house, and that`s why killer had chosen it, and it`s innocence ended there. Killer(s)`s kit was in the brown paper bag: gloves, rope(s), duct tape, flashlight. He (they) might had couple of those bags.

Brown paper bag(s) was used in the crime. There is no innocent explanation for:
1, It was found in the bedroom, adjacent to JB`s bedroom, it stood on the JAR bed, in the morning after the crime
2. It had the rope inside
3. The particle of this brown paper bag had been found in JB`s bed , which means at some point this brown paper bag had been in JB`s room, or used to take something out of it . &#8220;Further, small pieces of the material on this brown sack were found in the "vacuuming" of JonBenet's bed and in the body bag that was used to transport her body (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181), thereby suggesting that either the bag had been near JonBenet or that someone who had touched the bag had also touched JonBenet." (Carnes 2003:93-94).
4. Ransom had reference to the brown paper bag .

The point #3 is major evidence towards the IDI to the disappointment of RDI believers. RDI people cannot avert their eyes from one more forensic evidence, they should come with the reason why Patsy / John would bring the brown paper bag into JB`s room on the night of her killing. We cannot continue swiping the evidence under the rug, if it does not fit RDI theory. It makes the dispute between IDI and RDI worthless. Other than how I believe it got in there- the perp(s) kit was inside the bag, the crime started in JB`s room, things taken out of the bag, bag`s particles flew on the bed, I cannot phantom any other scenario.

Concerning the adequate size attaché. I believe that every briefcase, even slim one, could accommodate this amount of money. I can visualize this amount, I cannot verify with the experiment, because I would need to buy 28 small notebooks. I can only visualize, we can look at the small notebook with 100 pages for 100 bills bundled to make $10,000 and imagine 10 bundles of it, and 50 pages for 20 bills bundled to make $1,000 and imagine 18 bundles like it. It`s not mountain of the money, any briefcase could accommodate it. One brown paper bag would definitely accommodate this amount.

Why perp(s) was so detailed about the money handling down to the obsessive instructions and concerns? My personal believe that either perp(s) was psycho ( and a liar, which is always connected) , so detailed, and so wrong on almost everything, like taking money from the bank earlier then 8-10 am , morning after the Christmas, face-to-face transaction of exchange; or he (them) mocked at the victims Ramseys at every step, enjoying prolongation of the defeat and victory.
 
Not every household has brown grocery bags. We don`t.

Now a days, probably not. And in your country, probably not as well. But in the US back then, most people kept their brown grocery bags.

Why perp(s) was so detailed about the money handling down to the obsessive instructions and concerns?

It's not really obsessive. The money was divided in a logical way that most people would divide it. $118,000 was divided into $100,000 & $18,000. A logical way that could actually be put A truly insane person would have divided the amount into 55,320 in tens, 26,340 in fives. 300 in hundreds, etc. This example is hyperbole, but the point is that an insane person would have chosen amounts and denominations that would be illogical to obtain, much less put in an attache case.

You see this is the big reason why the killer expected the ransom to be obtained and it wasn't meant to be a sick joke.

RDI people cannot avert their eyes from one more forensic evidence,

RDI;s aren't averting it. They are just waiting along with the IDI's for it to be matched to an actual suspect. A wait that is making the validity of it less and less likely by the year.

All I know is that we have DNA of an unknown person that could be the DNA of JonBenet's killer or the DNA of some slacker employee that blew his nose at his day job at the underwear manufacturer.

The fact that CODIS has not produced anything leads to the fact that this killer amazingly has never been convicted for a crime since or after JonBenet's death.

Also of note, the presence of one piece of evidence does not eliminate the presence of other pieces of evidence. This is the biggest mistake that people make in cases.
 
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