Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[Anti-K]

The story that Ubowski said that Mrs Ramsey could not be excluded originated with a release of court documents, specifically a Search Warrant Affidavit. The relevant part of that warrant can be found here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix4.html

The other source for this story is, of course Thomas. Supposedly, Wickman told Eller and Eller told Thomas, and, well we all know how these things go.

Anyway, the article posted above used the search warrant as a source (it says so in the article). The warrant notes that Ubowski needed further handwriting samples – “primarily printing samples” – if he was going to make a “more conclusive determination.”

None of us have ever seen Ubowski’s final report/analysis. However, we do know that he did not identify Mrs Ramsey as the author.

We also know that when being deposed for the Wolf suit Hunter (who would have seen the reports or been made aware of them) admitted that the handwriting analysis done had failed to identify Mrs Ramsey as the author and that they had placed her low on the scale of probability (see Carnes and Epstein depo).

Hoffman (Wolf’s lawyer in suit) notes in a fax that these experts said, “the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."

<quote; emphasis added> The police had hung their hat on the Ramseys as culprits, but they were still unable to provide the DA’s office with enough evidence to warrant an arrest. Neither Alex Hunter nor the police were ready to admit that the case was unsolvable, however. Knowing that the ransom note was the best piece of evidence that they had, Hunter hoped that the CBI’s handwriting experts would find something solid, but Chet Ubowski would not take the leap and say that Patsy had written the note. The CBI expert REFUSED TO TAILOR HIS CONCLUSIONS TO THE NEEDS OF THE POLICE AND THE DA. <end quote> PMPT p.873
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The point that seems to be missed is that, according to what is being quoted, Ubowski did not make the &#8220;24 of the alphabet's 26 letters&#8221; claim BECAUSE &#8220;the lab does not quantify like that.&#8221;

I suspect that there is an ethical and sound reason why Ubowski would have been unwilling to testify in court that Mrs Ramsey authored the note. And, that reason is that the evidence simply does not support the conclusion.

It&#8217;s unfortunate that virtually everything that Ubowski has supposedly said comes from persons removed. But, it is fact that Ubowski said that &#8220;the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion.&#8221;
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Shouldn&#8217;t this discussion be on a different thread?
...

AK

 

[andreww]

Yes, everything Ubowski was purported to have said came second hand, but as far as I know he has never made a public statement about it. The problem here is that when Ubowski said he could not positively identify Patsy as the author, many of you take it to mean that he had excluded her as being the author. I don't believe that to be the case. I believe he felt the possibility was quite strong that she wrote the note, but that he just couldn't say it with certainty.

We know that Ubowski spent a considerable amount of time in front of the grand jury, and we know what the outcome of that was. As the letter relates directly to the charges that were recommended, one can assume that he didn't go up there and say "patsy didn't write the note".


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[Mama2JML]

The story that Ubowski said that Mrs Ramsey could not be excluded originated with a release of court documents, specifically a Search Warrant Affidavit. The relevant part of that warrant can be found here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix4.html

The other source for this story is, of course Thomas. Supposedly, Wickman told Eller and Eller told Thomas, and, well we all know how these things go.

Anyway, the article posted above used the search warrant as a source (it says so in the article). The warrant notes that Ubowski needed further handwriting samples – “primarily printing samples” – if he was going to make a “more conclusive determination.”

None of us have ever seen Ubowski’s final report/analysis. However, we do know that he did not identify Mrs Ramsey as the author.

We also know that when being deposed for the Wolf suit Hunter (who would have seen the reports or been made aware of them) admitted that the handwriting analysis done had failed to identify Mrs Ramsey as the author and that they had placed her low on the scale of probability (see Carnes and Epstein depo).

Hoffman (Wolf’s lawyer in suit) notes in a fax that these experts said, “the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."

<quote; emphasis added> The police had hung their hat on the Ramseys as culprits, but they were still unable to provide the DA’s office with enough evidence to warrant an arrest. Neither Alex Hunter nor the police were ready to admit that the case was unsolvable, however. Knowing that the ransom note was the best piece of evidence that they had, Hunter hoped that the CBI’s handwriting experts would find something solid, but Chet Ubowski would not take the leap and say that Patsy had written the note. The CBI expert REFUSED TO TAILOR HIS CONCLUSIONS TO THE NEEDS OF THE POLICE AND THE DA. <end quote> PMPT p.873
...

AK

:goodpost:

In reference to that which is BBM, for anyone interested, the full text of Darnay Hoffman's fax to Thomas "Doc" Miller is attached below:






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[ScarlettScarpetta]

:goodpost:

In reference to that which is BBM, for anyone interested, the full text of Darnay Hoffman's fax to Thomas "Doc" Miller is attached below:

View attachment 69603




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Isn't it wild that people were looking at this as a famous case so early on? I swear that there are people who hoped to make a name off this case.
Some ran to if and some ran from it and it tainted things.
What I don't understand is that why people when they can see clearly that no one named Patsy as the author with any certainty, that there was not enough to even take it to court and it was not good enough to put forward to a jury, that people want to believe she did.

What bothers me is the evidence shows it was not the R's who killed her but people make end runs and do everything they can to twist things into different untrue facts and use them to weigh the case.
What I think IDI is at its core is about looking at the evidence plainly and clearly with no color.

 

[andreww]

:goodpost:

In reference to that which is BBM, for anyone interested, the full text of Darnay Hoffman's fax to Thomas "Doc" Miller is attached below:

View attachment 69603


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From Osbornes' 48 Hours appearance...

Erin - "Unfortunately, in the Ramsey case, the ransom note hasn't been the big break
authorities had hoped for. Why?"

John Osborn - "Simply because no one has clearly been identified as the writer of the note."

Erin - "The problem is this. While JonBenét's father has been excluded as the author of the
note, that's not the case with her mother. Sources tell 48 Hours that 2 analysts hired by the
Ramsey family have ruled out Patsy Ramsey as the author but state experts contend while
they can't say with certainty she wrote the note, they can't eliminate her either."

John Osborne - "They can not make a determination one way or the other."

Erin - "The reason may be that the author of the ransom note disguised his or her
handwriting."

John Osborne - "The note begins in a fashion which could be described as writing that is
more slowly executed and ends up with writing that appears to be more rapidly and freely
executed."

Erin - "Either if someone has described their handwriting sufficiently enough to confuse
these handwriting or the police haven't found the right person."

John Osborne - "I would say that's a pretty good synopsis of the situation."

 

[Roy23]

From Osbornes' 48 Hours appearance...

Erin - "Unfortunately, in the Ramsey case, the ransom note hasn't been the big break
authorities had hoped for. Why?"

John Osborn - "Simply because no one has clearly been identified as the writer of the note."

Erin - "The problem is this. While JonBenét's father has been excluded as the author of the
note, that's not the case with her mother. Sources tell 48 Hours that 2 analysts hired by the
Ramsey family have ruled out Patsy Ramsey as the author but state experts contend while
they can't say with certainty she wrote the note, they can't eliminate her either."

John Osborne - "They can not make a determination one way or the other."

Erin - "The reason may be that the author of the ransom note disguised his or her
handwriting."

John Osborne - "The note begins in a fashion which could be described as writing that is
more slowly executed and ends up with writing that appears to be more rapidly and freely
executed."

Erin - "Either if someone has described their handwriting sufficiently enough to confuse
these handwriting or the police haven't found the right person."

John Osborne - "I would say that's a pretty good synopsis of the situation."

So Patsy should have been prosecuted because it is a possibility she made her handwriting confusing enough that they can't tie it to her. And 2 pages ago you said they did tie it to her. LOL!!!

 

[andreww]

You have a very "all or nothing" type personallity. NOBODY ON THE PLANET can say with 100% certainty that anybody wrote that note unless they witnessed the person do it. But I have no doubt that all of these experts would have been called as witness' if Patsy had ever been tried, because although their results aren't conclusive, there are many factors that lead them to believe there is a good chance Patsy did write that note. Just because they won't give a conclusive report doesn't mean they have nothing to say at all!

 

[Mama2JML]

You have a very "all or nothing" type personallity. NOBODY ON THE PLANET can say with 100% certainty that anybody wrote that note unless they witnessed the person do it.

True. (...that which is BBM.)

But I have no doubt that all of these experts would have been called as witness' if Patsy had ever been tried, because although their results aren't conclusive, there are many factors that lead them to believe there is a good chance Patsy did write that note.

There are MANY MORE factors that led the 6 experts, consulted by LE, to believe Patsy did not write the note. Remember, the consensus of these experts was between "probably did NOT" & "elimination" . So, what exactly do you qualify as a "good chance"?

Just because they won't give a conclusive report doesn't mean they have nothing to say at all!

Absolutely. What do you reckon the experts would have to say? Do you think they would suddenly disregard their own expert analyses to appease the BPD? According to Thomas, Chet Ubowski refused to tailor his report. What makes you think these other experts would be willing to commit perjury by contradicting the official assessments they'd already submitted to LE?




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[Muy Curioso]

When I try to hide my letter, I find that it is quite difficult to get the modified letters resemble each other. That is, "a" in first words the same that "a" in the last words, and so for each letter. It is difficult in a short text, so I do not want to imagine what it would be in a text of 1300 characters.

I do not mean that you can not, but take much time and require so much concentration that is hard to think that someone wrote it that night, for whoever was the writer.

Try it yourselves.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

From Osbornes' 48 Hours appearance...

Erin - "Unfortunately, in the Ramsey case, the ransom note hasn't been the big break
authorities had hoped for. Why?"

John Osborn - "Simply because no one has clearly been identified as the writer of the note."

Erin - "The problem is this. While JonBenét's father has been excluded as the author of the
note, that's not the case with her mother. Sources tell 48 Hours that 2 analysts hired by the
Ramsey family have ruled out Patsy Ramsey as the author but state experts contend while
they can't say with certainty she wrote the note, they can't eliminate her either."

John Osborne - "They can not make a determination one way or the other."

Erin - "The reason may be that the author of the ransom note disguised his or her
handwriting."

John Osborne - "The note begins in a fashion which could be described as writing that is
more slowly executed and ends up with writing that appears to be more rapidly and freely
executed."

Erin - "Either if someone has described their handwriting sufficiently enough to confuse
these handwriting or the police haven't found the right person."

John Osborne - "I would say that's a pretty good synopsis of the situation."

All this does is prove that Patsy can not be labeled the author of the note. The point is that in all this time. With all the experts no one can claim that she wrote the note. So if the is the case it is way more likely that she did not. That is just the way it works. In nearly 20 years no one can prove she wrote the note, You know why?? Because she didn't. Not one word of it. It does not fit not only her writing, nor her personality.

What is a shame is that all this time has been wasted with people trying to make up evidence against the R's instead of just following the real facts to the truth.

 

[Mama2JML]

When I try to hide my letter, I find that it is quite difficult to get the modified letters resemble each other. That is, "a" in first words the same that "a" in the last words, and so for each letter. It is difficult in a short text, so I do not want to imagine what it would be in a text of 1300 characters.

I do not mean that you can not, but take much time and require so much concentration that is hard to think that someone wrote it that night, for whoever was the writer.

Try it yourselves.

I agree. Experts in the field look beyond the more simple characteristics displayed in penmanship. (i.e. "a "v. "&#945;") A qualified expert is deemed to be such because he/she is equipped with the tools necessary for doing, knowing, determining, etc. what a layperson cannot.

 

[Muy Curioso]

View attachment A letter.pdf

Is anyone interested? I have more.

 

[Mama2JML]

View attachment 69645

Is anyone interested? I have more.

I am interested. What is this & what does it mean to you?

 

[Muy Curioso]

They are all "a" letters of the ransom note. I also have b, c, and d, and I am working with e. I do not know if someone has done this job before...

 

[Mama2JML]

They are all "a" letters of the ransom note. I also have b, c, and d, and I am working with e. I do not know if someone has done this job before...

I noticed the letters "a" were pulled from the RN, but I've never seen a document just like this before. So, you've been working on this yourself? Impressive! Are you using specialty software? Is this your field of study? Tell me more, please. I'm intrigued.


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[KKazoo87]

I'm surprised that no one has touched on the "a"'s yet. I only read a few pages back so maybe I missed it. One of the things that has always gotten me is how Patsy would freely interchange between the manuscript 'a' and the cursive 'a' before the murder. Both appear in the ransom note as you can see in the post above.

Sample from ACandyRose: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/entryforumsample2.gif

It is said that after the murder she completely dropped the cursive style.

Sample 2, also from ACandyRose: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/patsychart8letter2.gif

And I know many in this thread don't think anything Steve Thomas says is true, but he writes in his book that when trying to convince Patsy's mother to give them handwriting samples she handed him a handwritten list of names, saying Patsy had wrote it that morning. In the list was the name "Barbara Fernie", with one of the 'a's a cursive style, written over with a manuscript style.

Even without that sample and the weight of what ST has to say, the fact remains that Patsy altered her handwriting after the murder. Why?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm surprised that no one has touched on the "a"'s yet. I only read a few pages back so maybe I missed it. One of the things that has always gotten me is how Patsy would freely interchange between the manuscript 'a' and the cursive 'a' before the murder. Both appear in the ransom note as you can see in the post above.

Sample from ACandyRose: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/entryforumsample2.gif

It is said that after the murder she completely dropped the cursive style.

Sample 2, also from ACandyRose: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/patsychart8letter2.gif

And I know many in this thread don't think anything Steve Thomas says is true, but he writes in his book that when trying to convince Patsy's mother to give them handwriting samples she handed him a handwritten list of names, saying Patsy had wrote it that morning. In the list was the name "Barbara Fernie", with one of the 'a's a cursive style, written over with a manuscript style.

Even without that sample and the weight of what ST has to say, the fact remains that Patsy altered her handwriting after the murder. Why?

That is not what I get at all. I think that she wrote different ways all the time. AS do I and many people I know.
Some days I will write in cursive some days I print. Some of my words are a mixture of both..

The thing is that none of those things you mention prove she wrote the note. Only that people don't like the way she writes.

 

[KKazoo87]

I'm not out to prove anything, just trying to add to the discussion. The truth is, I can't say with certainty that she wrote the note, and you can't say that she didn't. It's a two way street here.

I also write oddly, mostly print with cursive 'L's, capital 'R's and 'O' always with a dash through it. But I wasn't being looked at for the murder of my daughter and clearly eliminating one of the traits of my writing.

I'm not sure how you get that people don't like the way she writes? I'm merely putting out an example out of how she altered her handwriting after the murder. It's easy to find unless you don't want to see it. The fact is, after the murder the cursive style 'a' disappeared from her writing altogether.