Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[BBB167893]

Steve Thomas attributed that "24 out of 26" comment to Ubowski via Wickman or Trujillo, BUT Ubowski denied the claim.

Where did he deny it, exactly? I've heard that claim, but I've never found it. And I've looked.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What good are they, when they have limited experience with disguised handwriting, put less than a day's effort into their "analysis" and are slaves to groupthink and methods that are 60+ years-old?



What do you mean, "SOOO???" Are you kidding? I doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect those dots.

There are no dots. There is nothing that shows she wrote the note with any certainty. It is a speculation based on the small group of samples they had.
There is so much that points away from the R's writing it it is ridiculous.

 

[Mama2JML]

What good are they, when they have limited experience with disguised handwriting, put less than a day's effort into their "analysis" and are slaves to groupthink and methods that are 60+ years-old?



What do you mean, "SOOO???" Are you kidding? I doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect those dots.

:sigh:

I'm serious.

Completely.

SERIOUS.

The "Ramsey's legal machine" didn't inhibit Wong, Miller, Epstein, etc. Sure didn't hold you back either.

SOOO? Explain...

I'm all ears.

:bored:


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[andreww]

You are wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay. you must be right then. Great debaters you IDIs are

 

[Mama2JML]

Where did he deny it, exactly? I've heard that claim, but I've never found it. And I've looked.

I don't have Ubowski's first hand statement, but neither do you. Neither did Thomas.

ST's depo in Wolf v. Rs:

"Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you would look at page 152 of your book. Next to the last paragraph, it ends "'I believe she wrote it.'.Ubowski had recently told one detective "'I believe she wrote it.'" Who was --

A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?

Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that detective is.

A. I believe that's Trujillo and Wickman who made that statement, specifically Wickman, which John Eller certainly also heard.

Q. Anybody else?

A. I think this was Tom Koby. This was that meeting I described in a vehicle at the parking lot of the shopping mall, Koby, Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know whether or not that's on tape.

Q. But isn't the bottom line that Chet Ubowski made it very clear that, whatever his beliefs were, he was not in a position from his standpoint to state under oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within any degree of certainty; isn't that what he told you, sir?

A. No, the conduit was Wickman who said something very similar to that that he couldn't get on the stand and testify to it.

Q. And that never changed while you were there, did it, that Ubowski would not get on the stand and testify to it, right?

A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski never took the stand and testified to it.

Q. And it was always your understanding that he said that he was not in a position to do so from an opinion standpoint; isn't that true?

A. To take the stand?

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

Q. Did you ever know that opinion to change before August of 1998 when you left?

A. To get stronger or weaker?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before I just showed it to you today?

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?

A. No, as I have said, no."​

​

Aside from this, my suggestion would be to remove your blinders & look harder.




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[andreww]

:sigh:

I'm serious.

Completely.

SERIOUS.

The "Ramsey's legal machine" didn't inhibit Wong, Miller, Epstein, etc. Sure didn't hold you back either.

SOOO? Explain...


I'm all ears.

:bored:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He didn't say anything about the Ramsey's legal machine (glad you admit to there being one though).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Where did he deny it, exactly? I've heard that claim, but I've never found it. And I've looked.

The problem is he never said.. ST said he said it. But CU did not say it. It was reported in ST " book"

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't have Ubowski's first hand statement, but neither do you. Neither did Thomas.

ST's depo in Wolf v. Rs:

"Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you would look at page 152 of your book. Next to the last paragraph, it ends "'I believe she wrote it.'.Ubowski had recently told one detective "'I believe she wrote it.'" Who was --

A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?

Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that detective is.

A. I believe that's Trujillo and Wickman who made that statement, specifically Wickman, which John Eller certainly also heard.

Q. Anybody else?

A. I think this was Tom Koby. This was that meeting I described in a vehicle at the parking lot of the shopping mall, Koby, Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know whether or not that's on tape.

Q. But isn't the bottom line that Chet Ubowski made it very clear that, whatever his beliefs were, he was not in a position from his standpoint to state under oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within any degree of certainty; isn't that what he told you, sir?

A. No, the conduit was Wickman who said something very similar to that that he couldn't get on the stand and testify to it.

Q. And that never changed while you were there, did it, that Ubowski would not get on the stand and testify to it, right?

A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski never took the stand and testified to it.

Q. And it was always your understanding that he said that he was not in a position to do so from an opinion standpoint; isn't that true?

A. To take the stand?

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

Q. Did you ever know that opinion to change before August of 1998 when you left?

A. To get stronger or weaker?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before I just showed it to you today?

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?

A. No, as I have said, no."​

​

Aside from this, my suggestion would be to remove your blinders & look harder.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is amazing all the claims people make in their books that people take for gospel.

 

[BBB167893]

There are no dots.

Oh, I've connected them many times. Innocent people don't try to scare off potential witnesses or try to railroad them on phony charges so they can't testify.

There is nothing that shows she wrote the note with any certainty.

I guess it depends on who you ask.

It is a speculation based on the small group of samples they had.

That's actually not a bad argument. I may not agree with it, but I can respect it.

 

[andreww]

The problem is he never said.. ST said he said it. But CU did not say it. It was reported in ST " book"

So first you don't believe Chet Ubowski, now you don't believe Steve Thomas? Do you believe anybody?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So first you don't believe Chet Ubowski, now you don't believe Steve Thomas? Do you believe anybody?

ST said Chet said it. Show me a direct quote from CU. you said he said it and if he did he would have been wrong but in fact since he didn't say it, or there is no proof he actually said it to ST, that would put the Carp on ST.

 

[BBB167893]

:sigh:

I'm serious.

Completely.

SERIOUS.

That's what worries me.

The "Ramsey's legal machine" didn't inhibit Wong, Miller, Epstein, etc.

Wasn't for lack of trying!

Sure didn't hold you back either.

You got THAT right! I'm like cheap toilet paper, Mama: I don't take s**t off anybody! :drumroll:

SOOO? Explain...

To me way of thinking, innocent people have no need to do these things.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

That's what worries me.



Wasn't for lack of trying!



You got THAT right! I'm like cheap toilet paper, Mama: I don't take s**t off anybody! :drumroll:



To me way of thinking, innocent people have no need to do these things.

Being innocent entitles them to do whatever they want. It does not matter what YOU think innocent people should or should not do. Act or not act. It does not prove guilt because they act a certain way. People act strangely in tragedy.
Silly is as a silly does.

 

[andreww]

I don't have Ubowski's first hand statement, but neither do you. Neither did Thomas.

ST's depo in Wolf v. Rs:

"Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you would look at page 152 of your book. Next to the last paragraph, it ends "'I believe she wrote it.'.Ubowski had recently told one detective "'I believe she wrote it.'" Who was --

A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?

Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that detective is.

A. I believe that's Trujillo and Wickman who made that statement, specifically Wickman, which John Eller certainly also heard.

Q. Anybody else?

A. I think this was Tom Koby. This was that meeting I described in a vehicle at the parking lot of the shopping mall, Koby, Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know whether or not that's on tape.

Q. But isn't the bottom line that Chet Ubowski made it very clear that, whatever his beliefs were, he was not in a position from his standpoint to state under oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within any degree of certainty; isn't that what he told you, sir?

A. No, the conduit was Wickman who said something very similar to that that he couldn't get on the stand and testify to it.

Q. And that never changed while you were there, did it, that Ubowski would not get on the stand and testify to it, right?

A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski never took the stand and testified to it.

Q. And it was always your understanding that he said that he was not in a position to do so from an opinion standpoint; isn't that true?

A. To take the stand?

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

Q. Did you ever know that opinion to change before August of 1998 when you left?

A. To get stronger or weaker?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before I just showed it to you today?

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?

A. No, as I have said, no."​

​

Aside from this, my suggestion would be to remove your blinders & look harder.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To be fair, unless you've got the article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, this text you quoted really doesn't mean a lot. Chet Ubowski never said he could testify that he was 100% positive that Patsy wrote the note, so you find it surprising that in April 2000 he would deny ever saying Patsy wrote it? We are talking about what he obviously told LE after analyzing the note, that his gut told him that Patsy wrote the note. So maybe the question is "did you say Patsy wrote the note because 24 of 26 characters match?", and his response was "I never said that". Without seeing the quote and context it means nothing. And I have no doubt that CU expressed his opinions to BPD exactly as Thomas said he did.

 

[Mama2JML]

ST said Chet said it. Show me a direct quote from CU. you said he said it and if he did he would have been wrong but in fact since he didn't say it, or there is no proof he actually said it to ST, that would put the Carp on ST.

Actually, ST said Wickman or Trujillo (probably Wickman) said that Ubowski said it. ...sorta.

:waitasec:



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[ScarlettScarpetta]

To be fair, unless you've got the article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, this text you quoted really doesn't mean a lot. Chet Ubowski never said he could testify that he was 100% positive that Patsy wrote the note, so you find it surprising that in April 2000 he would deny ever saying Patsy wrote it? We are talking about what he obviously told LE after analyzing the note, that his gut told him that Patsy wrote the note. So maybe the question is "did you say Patsy wrote the note because 24 of 26 characters match?", and his response was "I never said that". Without seeing the quote and context it means nothing. And I have no doubt that CU expressed his opinions to BPD exactly as Thomas said he did.

IT is a deposition. It does matter and has weight.

If you believe it, then you are believing in something that CU did not say and is false. So you can not have good and valid info if you believe proven falsehoods.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't have Ubowski's first hand statement, but neither do you. Neither did Thomas.

We know he spoke to the Grand Jury.

ST's depo in Wolf v. Rs:

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before I just showed it to you today?

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?
[/indent][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I figured that's what you meant. Problem is, as I said, I've never found that article. All I have so far is Wood's word for it. And you know what that's worth to me.

Even if it were true, and that's a big if, it goes back to what I said earlier: we're supposed to discount ST's memory, but LS' memory is to be taken as gospel, when he was far less involved with the actual investigation to begin with.

Incidentally, the snippet you provided doesn't really challenge anything I've said:

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

That fits with what information Carol McKinley has shared from her meetings with him.

Aside from this, my suggestion would be to remove your blinders & look harder.

Duly noted. I have a suggestion as well, if you take my meaning.

 

[BBB167893]

He didn't say anything about the Ramsey's legal machine (glad you admit to there being one though).

Be glad you got that much!

 

[BBB167893]

To be fair, unless you've got the article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, this text you quoted really doesn't mean a lot. Chet Ubowski never said he could testify that he was 100% positive that Patsy wrote the note, so you find it surprising that in April 2000 he would deny ever saying Patsy wrote it? We are talking about what he obviously told LE after analyzing the note, that his gut told him that Patsy wrote the note. So maybe the question is "did you say Patsy wrote the note because 24 of 26 characters match?", and his response was "I never said that". Without seeing the quote and context it means nothing. And I have no doubt that CU expressed his opinions to BPD exactly as Thomas said he did.

Thanks, andreww. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

We know he spoke to the Grand Jury.

ST's depo in Wolf v. Rs:

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before I just showed it to you today?

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?
[/indent]

Yeah, I figured that's what you meant. Problem is, as I said, I've never found that article. All I have so far is Wood's word for it. And you know what that's worth to me.

Even if it were true, and that's a big if, it goes back to what I said earlier: we're supposed to discount ST's memory, but LS' memory is to be taken as gospel, when he was far less involved with the actual investigation to begin with.

Incidentally, the snippet you provided doesn't really challenge anything I've said:

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

That fits with what information Carol McKinley has shared from her meetings with him.



Duly noted. I have a suggestion as well, if you take my meaning.

That is a quote from ST affirming it. Not from CU. IT still holds no weight. TO find facts and evidence you have to first use real facts and evidence