Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm not out to prove anything, just trying to add to the discussion. The truth is, I can't say with certainty that she wrote the note, and you can't say that she didn't. It's a two way street here.

I also write oddly, mostly print with cursive 'L's, capital 'R's and 'O' always with a dash through it. But I wasn't being looked at for the murder of my daughter and clearly eliminating one of the traits of my writing.

I'm not sure how you get that people don't like the way she writes? I'm merely putting out an example out of how she altered her handwriting after the murder. It's easy to find unless you don't want to see it. The fact is, after the murder the cursive style 'a' disappeared from her writing altogether.

She didn't write the note. The problem is that all the time talking about Patsy writing it would have been better spent looking for the person who actually wrote it.
If all those experts can not prove without a shadow of a doubt, Or at least enough to take it to court, then it is time to move on to someone who for whom they could prove it.

 

[KKazoo87]

She didn't write the note. The problem is that all the time talking about Patsy writing it would have been better spent looking for the person who actually wrote it.
If all those experts can not prove without a shadow of a doubt, Or at least enough to take it to court, then it is time to move on to someone who for whom they could prove it.

In your opinion...she didn't write the note. Another problem is stating things as a fact when they aren't.

 

[tovarisch]

They are all "a" letters of the ransom note. I also have b, c, and d, and I am working with e. I do not know if someone has done this job before...

Great idea. Tedious job, though. I do not think it`s waist of time, it could be very useful.
What I want to do, if you are not against it, to compare your results to the foreign languages `s handwriting styles. Some letters in ransom have strange waves and long tails, writer might had adapted style from his native language.
Can you make you pictures larger, please?

 

[Mama2JML]

In your opinion...she didn't write the note. Another problem is stating things as a fact when they aren't.

Agreed. Kinda like stating (after the murder) Patsy abandoned the cursive style "a" altogether? Not a fact...


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[Anti-K]

You have a very "all or nothing" type personallity. NOBODY ON THE PLANET can say with 100% certainty that anybody wrote that note unless they witnessed the person do it. But I have no doubt that all of these experts would have been called as witness' if Patsy had ever been tried, because although their results aren't conclusive, there are many factors that lead them to believe there is a good chance Patsy did write that note. Just because they won't give a conclusive report doesn't mean they have nothing to say at all!

I think that most of us understand that a 100% certainty cannot be made in this case. Although – and, hahaha – Epstein did claim 100% cetainty. So, go figure.

Anyway, while most (all?) IDI understand this point, we also understand that none of these 6experts being discussed identified Mrs Ramsey as the author. To say that she could not be eliminated is to say little, particularly when we learn that several others fell into the same category as her. This is why Thomas was always very particular about saying that she was the only one known to be in the house that could not be eliminated.

If you read through the Epstein and Thomas, etc depos given for Carnes in the Wolf suit it becomes pretty obvious that, right or wrong, think what you will, none of the experts (incl. the 4 BPD experts) identified Mrs Ramsey and that although she could not be eliminated, she was not believed to be the author.

She could still be the author, but none of these credible (accepted by the court) experts concluded such. IDI simply do not find it meaningful that she could not be eliminated, many people could not be eliminated (read the Thomas depo).
...

AK

 

[KKazoo87]

Agreed. Kinda like stating (after the murder) Patsy abandoned the cursive style "a" altogether? Not a fact...


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If you can show me a sample that she didn't change her writing after the murder I will gladly edit my quote. The cursive 'a' doesn't appear in any of her post murder handwriting examples that I have seen. Thomas noted it was missing too, and that she was consciously making an effort to only use the manuscript 'a'. I don't wear blinders and I'm more than willing to accept the fact that she didn't eliminate this from her handwriting if you could post your links to back it up.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If you can show me a sample that she didn't change her writing after the murder I will gladly edit my quote. The cursive 'a' doesn't appear in any of her post murder handwriting examples that I have seen. Thomas noted it was missing too, and that she was consciously making an effort to only use the manuscript 'a'. I don't wear blinders and I'm more than willing to accept the fact that she didn't eliminate this from her handwriting if you could post your links to back it up.

Show that she did. No one was with her every day until her death checking her handwriting. That statement about her changing her handwriting is just more fodder to make people think she did it when nothing says she did. If you think that Patsy wrote the note this is probably not the thread for you.

 

[andreww]

Agreed. Kinda like stating (after the murder) Patsy abandoned the cursive style "a" altogether? Not a fact...


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Well I noticed she did. Steve Thomas noticed it as well.

 

[Mama2JML]

If you can show me a sample that she didn't change her writing after the murder I will gladly edit my quote. The cursive 'a' doesn't appear in any of her post murder handwriting examples that I have seen. Thomas noted it was missing too, and that she was consciously making an effort to only use the manuscript 'a'. I don't wear blinders and I'm more than willing to accept the fact that she didn't eliminate this from her handwriting if you could post your links to back it up.

The National Enquirer published the sample depicted in the image below., courtesy of Cherokee @ FFJ:




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[ScarlettScarpetta]

Well I noticed she did. Steve Thomas noticed it as well.

For what 2 days? A year? Through her trauma of losing her only daughter? Did he check 18 months later? Is he still looking..
Sorry this argument is ludicrous.

 

[andreww]

For what 2 days? A year? Through her trauma of losing her only daughter? Did he check 18 months later? Is he still looking..
Sorry this argument is ludicrous.

I'm talking about the samples that she provided to LE for analysis. Like nearly every other aspect of this case, she was being deceptive.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm talking about the samples that she provided to LE for analysis. Like nearly every other aspect of this case, she was being deceptive.

Really? I don't believe that for a minute. I think like everything else ST says that he only puts out what he wanted people to use against the R's. IT is not true. Not unless it can be proven and it can not be. Not by you or anyone else.
It is just a ridiculous story that goes around to try and make her look guilty.

 

[andreww]

The National Enquirer published the sample depicted in the image below., courtesy of Cherokee @ FFJ:

View attachment 69677


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Am I missing something? I don't see any cursive a's in the image you posted.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Am I missing something? I don't see any cursive a's in the image you posted.

Well then look closer there is a mix of printing and cursive there on certain words.

 

[andreww]

Well I have seen with my own eyes the samples Patsy provided after the crime and not once did I see a cursive "a".

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Well I have seen with my own eyes the samples Patsy provided after the crime and not once did I see a cursive "a".

That does not mean she did not write them. There are some in that note. Where she stops and starts cursive writing.

 

[andreww]

Below you will see a comparative sample comprised of examples from the ransom note and the National Enquirer sample that was provided. What I wanted to try and prove her is that Patsy was purposely trying to disguise her handwriting by changing the character structure of certain letters. What I did was take random letters from page three of the ransom note. My feeling was that by the third page she would have relaxed a bit and was more likely to be writing as she normally would. These samples comprise the first column. The second column is comprised of the last clear example of that character from the National Enquirer sample. I chose the last examples for the same reason I did on the ransom note. On the right side of the divider are the first four or five instances of that character form the National Enquirer sample. I think it is quite clear from this chart that Patsy was trying to be evasive with certain letters, notably "g", "a", "h", "w" and "n". The letter "g" shows that she has taken to a cursive style, then slipping in to a block style whilst still being careful to keep that bottom cradle small. By the end of the note the cradle is back to full size and the proportional size is identical to the RN. Again, with the letter "w" we can see a deliberate attempt to construct the character from straight lines, but by the end of the sample we have a rounded "w", very similar to the RN.

I won't go through every character because for most of them the original deception is quite obvious. And as a final thought, I think it is actually pretty startling how close Patsy,s sample letters are to those on the ransom note in all cases.

 

[BBB167893]

None of us have ever seen Ubowski’s final report/analysis. However, we do know that he did not identify Mrs Ramsey as the author.

There was someone who spoke to him, though:

"Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

She goes into greater detail here:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/08/15/websleuths-radio

Jump forward to 1:27:00

<quote; emphasis added> The police had hung their hat on the Ramseys as culprits, but they were still unable to provide the DA’s office with enough evidence to warrant an arrest. Neither Alex Hunter nor the police were ready to admit that the case was unsolvable, however. Knowing that the ransom note was the best piece of evidence that they had, Hunter hoped that the CBI’s handwriting experts would find something solid, but Chet Ubowski would not take the leap and say that Patsy had written the note. The CBI expert REFUSED TO TAILOR HIS CONCLUSIONS TO THE NEEDS OF THE POLICE AND THE DA. <end quote> PMPT p.873

Folks, for me, it all comes down to this: when you have two possible explanations, but only ONE showed any evidence of being inside the house that night and her own mother and sisters couldn't tell the difference between her writing and the RN,WHICH PATH ARE YA GONNA TAKE?! I mean, if I'm in a bar and there's two other guys in there, one's sitting quietly with his legs crossed sipping a Budweiser and the other one's banging on the bar with a machete screaming, "I'll kill the next (expletive deleted) that comes in here!" who are you going to watch?

 

[BBB167893]

Shouldn’t this discussion be on a different thread?
...

AK

I actually TRIED to create one, Anti-K. It has yet to appear on the board. I don't know what happened to it.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, everything Ubowski was purported to have said came second hand, but as far as I know he has never made a public statement about it. The problem here is that when Ubowski said he could not positively identify Patsy as the author, many of you take it to mean that he had excluded her as being the author. I don't believe that to be the case. I believe he felt the possibility was quite strong that she wrote the note, but that he just couldn't say it with certainty.

That's the way I take it, too, given what else I know.

We know that Ubowski spent a considerable amount of time in front of the grand jury, and we know what the outcome of that was. As the letter relates directly to the charges that were recommended, one can assume that he didn't go up there and say "patsy didn't write the note".

I'd call that a safe assumption, if there is such a thing.