Is Terri's arrest imminent?

[nursebeeme]

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clerk-Terri-Horman-tried-to-abduct-daughter-from-gym-98346624.html

rewatch the video at this link (interview with gym owner who called LE)...

Important things from the video:
1)Terri showed up on the 28th at the gym
2)gym owner described her as "stone faced" and he feared for baby K and K's safety
3)neither baby K or K were there at the time
4)she asked gym owner to call her the next time Kaine showed up at the gym with the baby!
5)he could not discuss the rest of what Terri said to daycare employees at the gym

All THAT being said

Kyron Horman's stepmother was served with a restraining order and a petition for dissolution of marriage about 6 p.m. Mondayhttp://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_stepmom_terri_mo.html

but Kaine moved out in a hurry on Saturday before the alleged 911 calls and botched sting after, according to court documents, he was told by LE about the contract/MFH plot

When we left the house back in June I had 15 minutes to pack for Kiara and I for an unknown location and an unknown amount of timehttp://www.kptv.com/news/24283158/detail.html

and in the court document http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf it says clearly that the gym encounter happened BEFORE service of the documents.


with all that being said, I do not at all see kidnapping charges being in the works unless she tries it again (as she had not been served with papers at the time of the incident). I do however see her possibly being arrested/reprimanded legally for showing M Cook the sealed documents and allowing him to photograph them. I also think she could be arrested for the murder for hire plot since the court documents allege that LE does have quite a bit of info on that part.

Sorry for the long post

ETA: I further think that Kaine moved out in a hurry on Saturday after the briefing by LE. He says he moved to an "undisclosed location for an unknown amount of time". So it lends me to think that he was hiding out until the papers were served/had hoped something would result from the sting. After waiting three weeks for something to happen (ie arrest/kyron found, etc) and nothing did he petitioned to get back into his home. I also think from the above links and documents that despite her early "wave off" to the media that all was hunky dory she KNEW that something was up ..as she had already visited the gym looking for her daughter and wanting them to call her the next time Kaine went to the gym.

 

[Angel4u2Whisper2]

In a word. Yes.
IMO. Yes

 

[cluciano63]

And the man from the gym couldn't wait to get on TV to tell all about it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

And the man from the gym couldn't wait to get on TV to tell all about it.

He didn't happen to mention the name of his business, did he? Just as part of the story, giving context to the allegations.

Kinda like the landscaper who alleges he answered an ad for a landscaper by TMH but she never replied.

<<<eyes rolling>>>

 

[cluciano63]

He was standing in front of the gym when I saw him but I wasn't paying attention. I get overloaded on people who yammer to the media during a criminal investigation.

 

[sorrell skye]

He was standing in front of the gym when I saw him but I wasn't paying attention. I get overloaded on people who yammer to the media during a criminal investigation.

I hear ya.

For all we know, he may have contacted the media himself & said, "Have I got a juicy story for you!" IMO, his comments only added to the tabloid-esque drama.

 

[Calliope]

There are emergency protective orders that LE can issue without court approval, that generally last until the courts are open. However, there is nothing that I have seen reported anywhere to suggest Kaine received one of these. Th is not in contempt for trying to take her baby from the gym because she likely did not know of any order at that time and Kaine did not cite it as a contempt count. I believe he merely made it known in order to illustrate that TH can be deceptive and that she has it in her to surreptitiously take a child. Regardless of the fact that she is the baby K's mom and had the right to her custody, the fact that she did not seek LE assistance, or the assistance of the court, or even confronted Kaine directly and demanded her child, points to something about her mindset and capabilities. She could have seen the way things were going with Kaine and decided that she would punish him further while at the same time escaping this mess by killing herself and the baby. This kind of thing si not that rare, unfortunately.

s/bbm

thanks

Does that exist in Oregon? (I can't find a statute to support it; if you know where to look, please point me in the right direction)

Regarding the 2nd point, she did seek LE assistance (the 911 call). We have no idea if she called a court or other agency, and we have no idea if she attempted to call Kaine. I would assume she did, but we don't know for a fact what she did in her attempts to locate Kaine and baby beyond the 911 call.

 

[gitana1]

KH moved out Saturday with baby K while TMH was out of the house being interviewed by LE. She came back, KH and baby K were gone, then the unsuccessful sting operation took place. She called 911 about the sting.

Later that same Saturday, she apparently realised that it wasn't a matter of KH just taking baby K out to visit with friends or whatever. She called 911 and it was classified as a custody call.

By that time, it's clear that she knew something was up. The attempted sting alone would have been warning.

That she chose not to air her dirty linen with some random reporter who showed up on her doorstep Monday does not indicate guilt to my mind. It just indicates that she chose to do what literally millions of other people would choose: decline to air her troubles to strangers who have no need to know them.

If TMH is factually innocent, then to her mind she had as much right for custody of baby K as KH does. From her point of view, he snuck off with baby K.

There is no way of knowing exactly what she intended when she asked the clerk at the gym to let her know when KH and baby K were there. Yes, she may have intended to take baby K. Or she may have intended to check on baby K's well being and talk to KH about what was going on.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that TMH was planning to take baby K from the gym while KH was distracted by working out. At that point in time, she was in the same position, legally, that KH was in. There was no order about custody in place and KH had just walked off with baby K. If she intended to do the same thing, then that makes her as innocent or guilty as KH.

I think there is a slight difference. Kaine took the baby from their home, albeit quickly, to avoid TH from stopping him, but TH tried to sneak the baby out from under his nose at the gym. In the first scenario, he's acting rapidly, but not so sneakily. IMO.

Also, they were not in the same position legally in the two scenarios because one, while there was no order in place when Kaine took the baby, there was one in place when TH tried to take her from the gym. She may not have known about it but it still existed. So, the force of law was not against Kaine taking the child but it was against Th taking her back.
Two, in general, LE tends, in a custody fight between parents in the absence of a court order, to leave the child with the party who has her, admonishing the other party to go to court to sort it out. They do not play tug of war. So, if TH had called LE to say that Kaine had her baby and she wanted the child back, LE would likely tell her to go to court. And if she went to the gym and demanded to take the baby from Kaine's custody, assuming the gym alerted him and did not allow it, if LE was called, they would likely lave the child with dad and again tell TH to go to court.
On the other hand, if TH had possession of the baby and Kaine, before a court order existed, wanted to get custody of her back, LE would likely say the same thing: "Go to court, Kaine."

SBM

But an emergency restraining order surely must be filed before it goes into effect!

Otherwise, anyone could claim that they had a temporary restraining order against anyone.

What would stop me under the circumstances you posit from proclaiming that I had an emergency restraining order forbidding you to post on WebSleuths? I decided that your posts are full of secret encoded messages that threaten my well being (see the David Letterman case), so I'e decided I have a temporary restraining order against you.

Even in the Letterman case, the petitioner had to file the motion.

I just don't see how imaginary or unfiled restraining orders can be enforced.

... and if they can be, then remember that there may be one against you right now.

Such orders are not filed with a file stamp. They are issued by LE and have the full force of an order that is file stamped. It is not an imaginary RO and though it is not filed, it is very enforceable. It's an actual document given to a person by LE.

s/bbm

thanks

Does that exist in Oregon? (I can't find a statute to support it; if you know where to look, please point me in the right direction)

Regarding the 2nd point, she did seek LE assistance (the 911 call). We have no idea if she called a court or other agency, and we have no idea if she attempted to call Kaine. I would assume she did, but we don't know for a fact what she did in her attempts to locate Kaine and baby beyond the 911 call.

I'm not sure if they have that in OR. Since most 9th circuit states have similar laws, I would assume OR does. Calling LE in Oregon would provide the answer, I guess.

But, you're right, we don't actually know what steps TH took to get her baby before calling the gym. I don't know what the 911 call was about, we don't have a transcript, do we? There seem to be differing opinions about it. I do remember that one of the calls was supposedly custody related but I don't know who made it. Imagine this though, let's say they fought because he had the baby and would not let Th have her. So, TH calls 911 and was told, "You need to go to court to get a court order because you two are married and have equal rights to the baby, so if Kaine has her, we will not take her back without a court order." Instead of going to court on Monday or Tuesday, she tries to sneak the baby out of the gym. That seems hinky to me. What was she going to do then? Why would she not, like most people I have seen in such a situation, go right into court to settle the issue?

 

[Calliope]

I think there is a slight difference. Kaine took the baby from their home, albeit quickly, to avoid TH from stopping him, but TH tried to sneak the baby out from under his nose at the gym. In the first scenario, he's acting rapidly, but not so sneakily. IMO.

Also, they were not in the same position legally in the two scenarios because one, while there was no order in place when Kaine took the baby, there was one in place when TH tried to take her from the gym. She may not have known about it but it still existed. So, the force of law was not against Kaine taking the child but it was against Th taking her back.
Two, in general, LE tends, in a custody fight between parents in the absence of a court order, to leave the child with the party who has her, admonishing the other party to go to court to sort it out. They do not play tug of war. So, if TH had called LE to say that Kaine had her baby and she wanted the child back, LE would likely tell her to go to court. And if she went to the gym and demanded to take the baby from Kaine's custody, assuming the gym alerted him and did not allow it, if LE was called, they would likely lave the child with dad and again tell TH to go to court.
On the other hand, if TH had possession of the baby and Kaine, before a court order existed, wanted to get custody of her back, LE would likely say the same thing: "Go to court, Kaine."



Such orders are not filed with a file stamp. They are issued by LE and have the full force of an order that is file stamped. It is not an imaginary RO and though it is not filed, it is very enforceable. It's an actual document given to a person by LE.



I'm not sure if they have that in OR. Since most 9th circuit states have similar laws, I would assume OR does. Calling LE in Oregon would provide the answer, I guess.

But, you're right, we don't actually know what steps TH took to get her baby before calling the gym. I don't know what the 911 call was about, we don't have a transcript, do we? There seem to be differing opinions about it. I do remember that one of the calls was supposedly custody related but I don't know who made it. Imagine this though, let's say they fought because he had the baby and would not let Th have her. So, TH calls 911 and was told, "You need to go to court to get a court order because you two are married and have equal rights to the baby, so if Kaine has her, we will not take her back without a court order." Instead of going to court on Monday or Tuesday, she tries to sneak the baby out of the gym. That seems hinky to me. What was she going to do then? Why would she not, like most people I have seen in such a situation, go right into court to settle the issue?

The call about the custody issue was made after 11pm, IIRC. That would have been after Kaine and baby had left. So IMO it's safe to assume it was made by Terri.

As far as LE issuing their own RO's without a court order, I'll have to look into that. Sounds a bit .... off. No offense, and I am not saying I don't believe you, it's just disturbing on a few levels.

 

[gitana1]

The call about the custody issue was made after 11pm, IIRC. That would have been after Kaine and baby had left. So IMO it's safe to assume it was made by Terri.

As far as LE issuing their own RO's without a court order, I'll have to look into that. Sounds a bit .... off. No offense, and I am not saying I don't believe you, it's just disturbing on a few levels.

Look away! I see them all the time. And they are court ordered. They are just not received via a court appearance. It's kind of like subpoenas. Those are orders to appear, even though an attorney drafts and serves it and does not have to go to court to get one. Also, a person cannot just demand and get one. LE usually gives them to a party, without having the party ask for it, after they assess the situation and if they deem there is enough of a risk of imminent harm that the party cannot wait until court is open for the day. LE does not just hand them out like candy, though. They need to have a serious reason for it. Here is the process in CA: http://www.ehow.com/how_6383829_restraining-order-los-angeles.html

 

[Calliope]

Look away! I see them all the time. And they are court ordered. They are just not received via a court appearance. It's kind of like subpoenas. Those are orders to appear, even though an attorney drafts and serves it and does not have to go to court to get one. Also, a person cannot just demand and get one. LE usually gives them to a party, without having the party ask for it, after they assess the situation and if they deem there is enough of a risk of imminent harm that the party cannot wait until court is open for the day. LE does not just hand them out like candy, though. They need to have a serious reason for it. Here is the process in CA: http://www.ehow.com/how_6383829_restraining-order-los-angeles.html

Thanks. Subpoenas are court-ordered though, right? Not issued by LE, if I understand the process correctly.

Very confusing, and very alarming.

If such a thing had existed in this case (a LE-generated, non-court-ordered RO), wouldn't Terri have been in violation of it? And if so, why wouldn't the judge include that in his contempt order? Or the attorney have included that as a reason for requesting the contempt order?

 

[Calliope]

According to your link, it's called an 'emergency protective order'.

I found this:

Although the rules and names for restraining orders vary in every jurisdiction, there are three common types of restraining orders. The first type of restraining orders is an emergency protective order, which goes into effect immediately. Emergency protective orders usually arise in situations of police responding to domestic violence calls. A police officer can call a judge at any time and request the emergency protective order if the officer feels it's necessary to prevent imminent harm. An emergency protective order only lasts a short amount of time, usually less than a week, and its purpose is to provide protection and give a victim time to apply for a restraining order.

So it IS issued by a judge / magistrate. I asked about this on the legal thread.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5401356&postcount=38"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for our VERIFIED LAWYERS*~*~*NO DISCUSSIONS*~*~*[/ame]

I guess the question I have now is if this process exists in Oregon.

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state.php?state_code=OR

http://www.oregonlawhelp.org/OR/sho...elID/111/isubtopicid/1/iproblemcodeid/1840099

I'm not finding anything regarding emergency protective orders in Oregon (RO that is issued in the interim)

 

[scotslass]

I'm not finding anything regarding emergency protective orders in Oregon (RO that is issued in the interim)

respectively snipped by me

I have not seen any reference to an order being in place during that 48 hours
either( i have been looking), I believe KH would have used the Gym incident to show his case that TH would try and take baby k from him once she knew where he was strengthening his case for the RO that was issued JMO

From this article/interview: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-hormans-father-chance-wife-innocent/story?id=11124144&page=1

Kaine Horman moved out of the house, taking the couple's toddler daughter with him, apparently after learning of his wife's murder-for-hire plot. It was then that a third call was placed from the Horman home that day, listed only as a custody issue. Kaine Horman filed for divorce and was granted a restraining order two days later. (copied from page 2 after the interview)

ETA: "He has since filed for divorce and was granted an emergency restraining order keeping Terri Horman away from him and their daughter."

Copied from page one of same article so although it was an emergency RO it still appears it did not come into effect until that monday.

 

[Calliope]

I've found that these particular orders exist in CA and a few other states including where I live, but no references to Oregon so far. All I've found relating to Oregon instructs the person to go to court to obtain the TRO. I may work up enough nerve to call the Portland police. I'll have to pick a time when the scanner is less hoppin' though lol.

 

[Bathbuddys]

Please give a link to that, because I've not read anything even remotely resembling that anywhere.

If she had attempted to take baby or been within 500 feet of either Kaine OR baby while the RO was in effect, that would have been part of the show cause order by the judge. As it was, the only thing he mentions is her violating the order to keep the RO to herself.

that was not the emergency order that gave him the right to remove his daughter from the home. You are talking about the one he got on the following monday as the courts are not open on the weekend. the commisioner can give it with the word of Law enforcement that it is needed until a permanent one can be filled for the first business day that the court is open.

 

[Bathbuddys]

Please give a link to that, because I've not read anything even remotely resembling that anywhere.

If she had attempted to take baby or been within 500 feet of either Kaine OR baby while the RO was in effect, that would have been part of the show cause order by the judge. As it was, the only thing he mentions is her violating the order to keep the RO to herself.

.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2162834_obtain-emergency-restraining-order.html

 

[gitana1]

Thanks. Subpoenas are court-ordered though, right? Not issued by LE, if I understand the process correctly.

Very confusing, and very alarming.

If such a thing had existed in this case (a LE-generated, non-court-ordered RO), wouldn't Terri have been in violation of it? And if so, why wouldn't the judge include that in his contempt order? Or the attorney have included that as a reason for requesting the contempt order?

It is totally confusing, I know!!! But both subpoenas and EPO's are court ordered, they just aren't filed in court and you don't have to go to court to get them.

According to your link, it's called an 'emergency protective order'.

I found this:

Although the rules and names for restraining orders vary in every jurisdiction, there are three common types of restraining orders. The first type of restraining orders is an emergency protective order, which goes into effect immediately. Emergency protective orders usually arise in situations of police responding to domestic violence calls. A police officer can call a judge at any time and request the emergency protective order if the officer feels it's necessary to prevent imminent harm. An emergency protective order only lasts a short amount of time, usually less than a week, and its purpose is to provide protection and give a victim time to apply for a restraining order.

So it IS issued by a judge / magistrate. I asked about this on the legal thread.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for our VERIFIED LAWYERS*~*~*NO DISCUSSIONS*~*~*

I guess the question I have now is if this process exists in Oregon.

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state.php?state_code=OR

http://www.oregonlawhelp.org/OR/sho...elID/111/isubtopicid/1/iproblemcodeid/1840099

I'm not finding anything regarding emergency protective orders in Oregon (RO that is issued in the interim)

Yes, I have found nothing about LE generated RO's in Oregon either. What they call an EPO is what we call a temporary RO, which is what Kaine got when he went into court ex parte.
I read alot about how LE will help victims find safe houses, shelters, etc, and create a "safe plan" so I'm guessing they maybe don't have them.

In any event, it seems a moot point because I have heard nothing about Kaine getting anything other than the temporary RO after his ex parte. Th was not technically in violation of anything anyway because she had not been served when she tried to take the baby from the gym. One must have knowledge of an order and willfully violate it in order to be in contempt.

 

[matou]

From this article from CBC news: LE were back at Skyline of Saturday.

Investigators returned to Skyline Elementary School over the weekend, searching for clues that might lead them to Kyron Horman.

Interesting.

C.W. Jensen, a retired police captain, told CBS News, "If the investigative team found out what happened to Kyron, Terri Horman would be arrested imminently."

What does this mean?????

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/26/earlyshow/main6713605.shtml

 

[matou]

From the same article:
After getting thousands of tips, the investigation into missing 7-year-old Kyron Hormon appears to have gone full circle, and now an arrest could be right around the corner
I hope this is true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/26/earlyshow/main6713605.shtml

 

[scotslass]

From the same article:
After getting thousands of tips, the investigation into missing 7-year-old Kyron Hormon appears to have gone full circle, and now an arrest could be right around the corner
I hope this is true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/26/earlyshow/main6713605.shtml

pointed out in two other threads this morning is this glaring discrepancy from the facts:

Also from same article is this..

"McCain said this report is "quite significant" because the day Kyron disappeared was the last day of school.

He explained, "A doctor's appointment the following Friday would have been pretty irrelevant to the school but the critical thing about this June 4th doctor's appointment is that that put the school in a position of not being concerned at all, that Kyron was not in his class, wasn't at lunch or the bus that afternoon. So, it looks like at least at this point Terri was able to bring Kyron to school, establish his presence there, and then perhaps take him away, at least that's the theory they're working on, without the school picking up the phone and call Kaine (Kyron's father) at work, for example."


I don't know if this is just shoddy editing? bad reporting or what?? We know June 4th was not the last day of school, did he mean last day for the week? who knows I'm off to bang my head off the wall there seems to a rather big dent in it already..