Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #9

[Friday Fan]

Though never from a Holy Land,

My ancestors are from what was then Poland and is now Belarus. Poland controlled the entire area- well, 400 (+) years ago. Like Sephardic Jews in the Middle East, there are Poles in Belarus who are part of the local culture speak local dialects and are Belarusan citizens. I know nothing of the culture, the local languages and have been American for generations.

Surely, I must realize that if I were to return to the area based on "ancestral rights" and start making continuous (key word) land claims, there is going to be uhmm..... "opposition" from the locals?

Likewise, if you are an American, you are likely residing on land once claimed by a Native Tribe (not getting PC romantic- Native tribes were every bit as likely to conquer and dispossess each other as European colonists were).

But... what would be the impact of Native Tribes returning in force. They then start making continuous (key word) land claims in your town- perhaps even deeming portions of your property to be "abandoned", "under utilized", "ancestral" or subject to forced sale under certain conditions?

In the 19th Century, Native Americans were seen as a threat to western expansion by the US. They violated treaties. They had guerilla type skills that the US did not have. They did return force. They excelled at ambushing. So, war was declared against them. It was a true war. The wars were most intense after 1860. Native Americans were not considered natural born citizens until 1924. Although born in the US, they were not US citizens.

Battle of the Little Bighorn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wounded Knee Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indian Wars Campaigns | U.S. Army Center of Military History

history.army.mil

Indian removal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

American Indian Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Battle of the Washita River - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sundog]

A shift in tone for US diplomacy​

Yolande Knell
BBC Middle East correspondent, in Jerusalem

Israel’s military sees Gaza City as a main focus of its offensive aiming to dismantle Hamas. However, further advances look set to involve gruelling urban warfare and are complicated by the presence of many thousands of civilians and some 240 hostages held by Hamas.

A spokesman for the Hamas military wing warned Israel that its soldiers would go home “in black bags”.

The US has promised full support and increased military aid to Israel for its attacks in Gaza, but there’s also been a shift in tone.

As US Secretary of State Antony Blinken left for the Middle East, he said he’d talk about “concrete steps” to minimise harm to civilians.

The White House has proposed a series of localised pauses in fighting to allow aid to be delivered to Gaza or to carry out evacuations. It has stressed these would fall well short of a ceasefire, which it believes would benefit Hamas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67305304

I think BBC is making too much of the "shift in tone" and that the U.S. position hasn't changed, the administration has been talking about a "humanitarian pause" for some time now, and continues to emphasize that they are not talking about a ceasefire.

 

[Momoffourboys]

Hamas founder’s son says ‘barbaric’ group must be removed​

• Mosab Hassan Yousef defected to Israel and spied on Hamas
• The Hamas co-founder's son says cease-fire wrong move
• Israel continues advance, nears encirclement of Gaza City

https://x.com/NewsNation/status/1720288232154210502?s=20

 

[Sundog]

13min ago

Nasrallah falsely claims civilians massacred on Oct. 7 were killed by Israeli forces​

Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah makes the false claim that Israeli civilians in Gaza border communities were killed on October 7 by Israeli forces who were “acting insanely as they were caught by surprise and were ‘drunk,'” not by Hamas.

There is overwhelming visual evidence and eyewitness accounts that Hamas terrorists butchered many hundreds of civilians in a premeditated attack, and Hamas terrorists have admitted being ordered to murder civilians.

“Israel has never been able to bring back hostages without negotiations,” Nasrallah boasts.

6min ago

Blinken says ‘shocking’ that brutality of Hamas massacres has receded in memories of many​

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken talks about the brutality of the Hamas onslaught, recalling having seen footage of a father grabbing his two sons to get them out of harm’s way before terrorists gun him down.

“Where’s daddy,” he quotes one of the boys as having said.

“They killed daddy,” his brother responds. “Where’s mommy?”

Blinken recalls how footage shows the terrorist responsible for killing the boys’ parents then casually eating from the fridge.

Blinken calls it “shocking” that the brutality of the slaughter has “receded” in the memory of so many — but not in Israel and not in the United States.

He notes that 33 Americans were killed in the October 7 onslaught along with 220 foreign nationals.

Yes, Blinken is right, it is "shocking" that the brutality of the slaughter has receded in the memory of so many around the world. I hope he continues to proclaim the need to "Never Forget." And remember what he felt when he first arrived in Israel after the October 7th massacre, his first trip, as he spoke about his Jewish ancestors who were murdered in the Holocaust. He may be the U.S. Secretary of State, but this is personal, may he never forget.

 

[dotr]

Israel warns citizens to downplay signs of Judaism while abroad amid antisemitism uptick

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

''A joint statement from the Prime Minister’s Office and the Foreign Affairs Ministry calls on Israeli citizens to take additional precautions while traveling abroad, including avoiding outward displays of their Jewish or Israeli identities amid an uptick in antisemitic attacks around the world.

Israeli embassies, airports that take in flights from Israel as well as Jewish communities and religious institutions abroad “are a major target of antisemitic protest events and attempted attacks,” the announcement says.

Israelis are urged not to travel to neighboring countries as well as countries that border Iran.''

 

[Cryptic]

Well, I would say that there are two options, negotiations to find a resolution, or violence and slaughter. Which is the better path?

I agree.

As winning wars has always given conquest rights- and Israel has won plenty of wars and continuing land siezures, dispossession has created a continuing conflict I imagine that negotiations would bevery tough for all.

But... I really think the peace treaty in Northern Ireland / The north of Ireland gives hope. In the end, there are an awful lot of similarities:

- Two peoples in a small area have very different views of who is / is not a colonist, who is / is not "indigenous", what land was / was not obtained via legalized theft, what land was / was not "abandoned" and who is / is not an "occupier", an "oppressor" and a "terrorist" etc.

- These two people engage in multi generational "tit for tat" violence. Proportional to the population, NI deaths are similar to Israel / Palestine deaths. Needless to say, the two NI peoples have very different views on who started what, who did what violence to whom first, and to what extent, and why...

Yet, a Peace Treaty was reached.... after alot of people got killed and both groups realized that there was no military solution to the conflict.

 

[Momoffourboys]

'Paramedics had to hold guns in their hands to protect themselves and the people surrounding them... We have very brave volunteers,'Testimony of President and Founder of United Hatzala Eli Beer recounts the horrific events of October 7th

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720471032610402463

 

[Arkay]

Israel warns citizens to downplay signs of Judaism while abroad amid antisemitism uptick

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

''A joint statement from the Prime Minister’s Office and the Foreign Affairs Ministry calls on Israeli citizens to take additional precautions while traveling abroad, including avoiding outward displays of their Jewish or Israeli identities amid an uptick in antisemitic attacks around the world.

Israeli embassies, airports that take in flights from Israel as well as Jewish communities and religious institutions abroad “are a major target of antisemitic protest events and attempted attacks,” the announcement says.

Israelis are urged not to travel to neighboring countries as well as countries that border Iran.''

That I should be living to see these restrictions being necessary for Jews…this is for our safety, I get that, but in A.D. 2023, to be in fear like my grandparents who had to leave Europe and come to NYC to feel safe…here I am in NYC all my life and now see the danger in which Jews worldwide are immersed…

The Islamist extremists do not joke…eventually they will come for America, for England, for Australia, for Canada, for Western Europe….it’s not just the Hamas charter, but all Islamist extremists’ deep-seated belief that the world entire must adhere to Islam…

IMO

 

[PrairieWind]

I agree.

As winning wars has always given conquest rights- and Israel has won plenty of wars and continuing land siezures, dispossession has created a continuing conflict I imagine that negotiations would bevery tough for all.

But... I really think the peace treaty in Northern Ireland / The north of Ireland gives hope. In the end, there are an awful lot of similarities:

- Two peoples in a small area have very different views of who is / is not a colonist, who is / is not "indigenous", what land was / was not obtained via legalized theft, what land was / was not "abandoned" and who is / is not an "occupier", an "oppressor" and a "terrorist" etc.

- These two people engage in multi generational "tit for tat" violence. Proportional to the population, NI deaths are similar to Israel / Palestine deaths. Needless to say, the two NI peoples have very different views on who started what, who did what violence to whom first, and to what extent, and why...

Yet, a Peace Treaty was reached.... after alot of people got killed and both groups realized that there was no military solution to the conflict.

I think there are some comparisons to Northern Ireland, but not many. The conflict in NI was/is political. While the sides largely fell on religious lines, the argument was in itself not religious but purely political. The Israel/Palestinian problem while also largely political really has become religious in nature because it has been forced into that. And unlike NI, in the Palestinian issue, Iran is constantly pouring gasoline on the fire and sabotaging any attempt at a negotiation. And neither side in NI committed the kind of atrocities that we saw on Oct 7.

 

[dotr]

Opinion | The President of Israel: This Is Not a Battle Just Between Israel and Hamas

All nations should realize that they could be the next target for terrorists.

www.nytimes.com

rbbm
''Against our will, we in Israel find ourselves at a tipping point for the Middle East and for the world and at the center of what is nothing less than an existential struggle. This is not a battle between Jews and Muslims. And it is not just between Israel and Hamas. It is between those who adhere to norms of humanity and those practicing a barbarism that has no place in the modern world.''

''Just like ISIS and Al Qaeda, the Hamas terrorists who attacked Israeli homes and families had no qualms about burning babies. They tortured children, raped women and destroyed peace-loving communities. They were so proud of their deeds that they made sure to capture them on video and even broadcast them live. These videos will forever remain a stain on those Palestinians and their supporters who celebrated that day and a testament to the depravity of the terrorists and of the ideas that inspired them.''

''History has taught us that foul ideologies often find the Jewish people first — but tend not to stop there. We find ourselves on the front lines of this battle, but all nations face this threat, and they must understand that they could be next.''

 

[Arkay]

Opinion | The President of Israel: This Is Not a Battle Just Between Israel and Hamas

All nations should realize that they could be the next target for terrorists.

www.nytimes.com

rbbm
''Against our will, we in Israel find ourselves at a tipping point for the Middle East and for the world and at the center of what is nothing less than an existential struggle. This is not a battle between Jews and Muslims. And it is not just between Israel and Hamas. It is between those who adhere to norms of humanity and those practicing a barbarism that has no place in the modern world.''

''Just like ISIS and Al Qaeda, the Hamas terrorists who attacked Israeli homes and families had no qualms about burning babies. They tortured children, raped women and destroyed peace-loving communities. They were so proud of their deeds that they made sure to capture them on video and even broadcast them live. These videos will forever remain a stain on those Palestinians and their supporters who celebrated that day and a testament to the depravity of the terrorists and of the ideas that inspired them.''

''History has taught us that foul ideologies often find the Jewish people first — but tend not to stop there. We find ourselves on the front lines of this battle, but all nations face this threat, and they must understand that they could be next.''

THIS IS TRULY THE TRUE TRUTH!

IMO

 

[Momoffourboys]

A bit long but worth the listen.

It's almost four weeks since the horrific terrorist attack on #Israel. A lot has happened, the public debate has become heated and confused. Find thoughts from Vice-Chancellor Robert #Habeck in the video, putting the events in context. With English, Hebrew and Arabic subtitles.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720130870864998800

 

[shotgun09]

That I should be living to see these restrictions being necessary for Jews…this is for our safety, I get that, but in A.D. 2023, to be in fear like my grandparents who had to leave Europe and come to NYC to feel safe…here I am in NYC all my life and now see the danger in which Jews worldwide are immersed…

The Islamist extremists do not joke…eventually they will come for America, for England, for Australia, for Canada, for Western Europe….it’s not just the Hamas charter, but all Islamist extremists’ deep-seated belief that the world entire must adhere to Islam…

IMO

I totally agree!
Personally, I choose to stand......Not cower to terrorism.
MOO and Peace

 

[Dotta]

Though never from a Holy Land,

My ancestors are from what was then Poland and is now Belarus. Poland controlled the entire area- well, 400 (+) years ago. Like Sephardic Jews in the Middle East, there are Poles in Belarus who are part of the local culture speak local dialects and are Belarusan citizens. I know nothing of the culture, the local languages and have been American for generations.

Surely, I must realize that if I were to return to the area based on "ancestral rights" and start making continuous (key word) land claims, there is going to be uhmm..... "opposition" from the locals?

Likewise, if you are an American, you are likely residing on land once claimed by a Native Tribe (not getting PC romantic- Native tribes were every bit as likely to conquer and dispossess each other as European colonists were).

But... what would be the impact of Native Tribes returning in force? They then start making continuous (key word) land claims in your town- perhaps even deeming portions of your property to be "abandoned", "under utilized", "ancestral" or subject to forced sale under certain conditions?

Spot on!
In fact, I wanted to write exactly the same

Now, part of Poland where I live, once was German land (frontiers changed after WW2).
Now, imagine Germans coming back
Likeways, part of Poland is now Ukraine.
Imagine us suddenly conquering this land again!
Madness.

Peace means compromise and respect.

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

I think there are some comparisons to Northern Ireland, but not many. The conflict in NI was/is political. While the sides largely fell on religious lines, the argument was in itself not religious but purely political. The Israel/Palestinian problem while also largely political really has become religious in nature because it has been forced into that. And unlike NI, in the Palestinian issue, Iran is constantly pouring gasoline on the fire and sabotaging any attempt at a negotiation. And neither side in NI committed the kind of atrocities that we saw on Oct 7.

Good points. But, I think the similarities out weigh the differences.

As for religion, I agree, the core question was political and never religious in Northern Ireland. But.... there were shades of a religious conflict in Northern Ireland- though never to the extent as in the Middle East.

Preachers on the Protestant side presented Catholics as a non Christian religion that was perpetually at war with Christians (Protestants). They even presented protestants has a new Israel / chosen people.

I also aree, October 07 went off the charts terror wise, even for the Middle East. But.... there are 14.5 million people in Israel Palestine and only 1.8 million in Northern Ireland. Thus, deaths proportion to the population might be close- even after October 07.

 

[katydid23]

I don't see where they are going to help them evacuate. They didn't provide any transportation or anything. They just told them to go. The IDF head just said one time "We want to help you", but didn't give any further information. They just said ""move south". There is no street listed on the flyer. When we evacuate here, we're given very clear instructions on where to go, such as a high school. If roads are closed, we are told et If transportation is not available, it can be arranged. No such info was given. They were only told to go south of the river. I guess telling them to go south of the river is their idea of helping them to evacuate. There was no intention that they would escort them or anything.

Is Israel responsible for providing transportation for Gazan citizens? Shouldn't that be Hamas or PLO or Egypt that should be setting that up?

 

[Friday Fan]

Is Israel responsible for providing transportation for Gazan citizens? Shouldn't that be Hamas or PLO or Egypt that should be setting that up?

I was refuting a claim that "IDF offered to assist with evacuation.".

They did not "offer to assist with evacuation". They warned. There is a difference. They posted on SM, dropped leaflets etc. That isn't "assisting", in my opinion.

If I get a tornado warning and it says it "seek shelter in a bathroom or basement" I don't consider that assisting, I consider it a warning. Also there was no mention of which roads to take or where in South Gaza was safest.


To the best of my knowledge there was no offer from IDF to assist with evacuation.

 

[shotgun09]

I was refuting a claim that "IDF offered to assist with evacuation.".




To the best of my knowledge there was no offer from IDF to assist with evacuation.

RSBM

I believe in one of the posts last night, an IDF spokesperson was on social media asking for calm safe evacuations from Gaza. He did offer " assistance" in a way, by stating that the IDF would provide " safe corridors" on the way out ( South ) of Gaza. That, I believe would be assisting...but that is MOO.

I will look for the post..

ETA: Found the link posted previously

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720213978092101955

 

[dotr]

Israel rules out Gaza cease-fire until hostages released, as US presses for aid, civilian protection

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — The United States urged Israel on Friday to ensure more humanitarian aid gets into Gaza and to do more to protect Palestinian civilians, as

www.thestar.com

''November 3, 2023 11:33 am. rbbm
The leader of Lebanon’s Hezbollah says his militia is not deterred by U.S. warnings to stay out of the Israel-Hamas war.
In a televised speech Friday, Hassan Nasrallah referred to U.S. military deployments in the region, saying “your fleets in the Mediterranean … will not scare us.” He said that Hezbollah is prepared for all options.
Nasrallah also said that his powerful militia is engaged in unprecedented cross-border fighting with Israel and threatened escalation but stopped short of announcing that Hezbollah is fully engaging in the Israel-Hamas war.
Nasrallah added that the fighting on the Lebanon-Israel border would “not be limited” to the scale seen until now.
Nasrallah’s comments come as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ruled out a temporary cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, saying he will press ahead with a devastating military offensive until hostages held by the Hamas militant group are released.''

''Nov 3, 2023
Israel’s prime minister has vowed to continue the war against Hamas in Gaza despite mounting international calls for a ceasefire or pause in the fighting.“Israel refuses a temporary ceasefire that does not include the return of our hostages,” Binyamin Netanyahu said, referring to more than 240 Israeli and foreign nationals who have been in captivity for nearly a month.''

 

[katydid23]

2hr ago

IDF says engineering forces are demolishing Hamas tunnels discovered in Gaza​

The Israel Defense Forces says troops in the elite Yahalom combat engineering unit have been working to demolish Hamas tunnels discovered during ground operations in the Gaza Strip.

Yahalom troops, members of the Combat Engineering Corps’s 7107th Battalion, along with infantry forces of the Nahal and Negev brigades, as well as tanks, have uncovered several tunnel entrances in northern Gaza, the IDF says.

“The troops uncovered shafts, planted explosives… and neutralized the tunnels,” the IDF says.

It publishes videos showing troops discovering a tunnel and blowing up another.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720388313624817906

That sounds like a good thing---but are the hostages down in those tunnels?