James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[UKGuy]

But if BDI and it was staged by both parents, why not move the body out of the house? Why leave it there where it could be found? John could easily have left the house under the ploy of flying out for business. I think the fact that the body was in the house makes it more likely one parent did it.

blefuscu,
More than likely because by the time that option arose it was nearly time to dial 911?

JonBenet's death was not planned either was her staging it was simply three amateurs attempting to evade prosecution using whatever means they thought appropriate.

Also dumping JonBenet outdoors really meant: somewhere she could never be found since if found, all the forensic evidence on her body and clothing becomes available including the pineapple remains.

.

 

[UKGuy]

WRT how to remove the body from the house: I know this sounds almost as crazy as child sacrifice happening as part of a black-robed satantic coven, BUT: No matter how hard i try to erase the idea of Santa and the traditional, very LARGE sack that he carries with him. Maybe Santa did make his promised "special" visit Christmas night. Maybe he arrived with his sack which held a few gifts for JB... Once they'd been given he then had an empty sack--- one that would hold a 6yr old quite nicely, thank you very much. Costumed as Santa, he has justification for the sack if someone spotted him. He ran out of time, obviously-- had barely enough time to finish the staging, write the RN, stash the costume, and shower away any evidence he might have picked up!

Maybe there were items in that golf bag that werent golf clubs... A Santa suit and size 6 bloomies?

Thanks in advance I'd love to hear this Santa sack theory disproved. Mayyybee then I can get it the heck out of my head!



ps Im very sorry that this has very few paragraphs I know it reads almost like a run-on sentence on a larger scale. I intended to fix that before actually posting but for some reason i cant do that., & Im pressed for time so i cant just ditch & re-write

renah,
From memory a Santa Suit was removed from the basement and the R's were questioned about it. I think BPD did consider this a bona fide angle of investigation.

For everyone else, particularly DeeDee249, did you hear Kolar in his last interview with Tricia nonchantly remark that the partially opened Christmas Gifts had been opened earlier Christmas Day and not late that night?

So where does that leave the size-12 debate?

.

 

[Chrishope]

But if BDI and it was staged by both parents, why not move the body out of the house? Why leave it there where it could be found? John could easily have left the house under the ploy of flying out for business. I think the fact that the body was in the house makes it more likely one parent did it.

You're right. If both parents were in on it, the body would have been moved.

But, the body probably wouldn't be moved at night. Neighbors might notice. But the RN provides JR with an excuse to be driving around - he's making the ransom drop. He might do it after dark, but not the night of the murder. There had to be time to fake a ransom call and to get PR and BR out of the house.

 

[DeeDee249]

renah,
From memory a Santa Suit was removed from the basement and the R's were questioned about it. I think BPD did consider this a bona fide angle of investigation.

For everyone else, particularly DeeDee249, did you hear Kolar in his last interview with Tricia nonchantly remark that the partially opened Christmas Gifts had been opened earlier Christmas Day and not late that night?

So where does that leave the size-12 debate?

.

I didn't hear it yet. I'll have to listen to it in the archives. I wonder how he would have proof of when they were opened? That would be a hard thing to prove. Odd, though- why would anyone PARTIALLY open presents on Christmas Day? I don't think I can think of a single reason. You OPEN a present completely...or not at all. It also does not explain the partially opened presents found in the winecellar. That is an odd place to open gifts on Christmas Day- in a filthy, moldy room instead of under the tree.
Sorry- I am not buying it, not unless Kolar was also able to say how he knew that as a fact. Obviously some gifts were opened Christmas Day...but let's not forget that Patsy, when asked about the partially opened gifts in the wine cellar, admitted leaving some gifts intended for other relatives in the wine cellar to be mailed when she got home from their trip. Among them were gifs for her niece Jenny- the intended recipient of the size 12 Bloomies panties.

 

[Pashtun Wally]

For me, the book was disappointing. We did learn 3 or 4 new things that some of us may or may have not known. The feces smeared on the candy in JB's room, extra DNA, and the basement video showing the spider webs were the biggest things. Other than that it was just a really good review of what we already knew which is the disappointing part as Mr. Kolar had access to thousands upon thousands of pages of evidence or notes. There should be a lot of info there that has not been revealed in the past.

Sadly this did not blow the lid off anything. Just being honest. I know a lot of us wanted this to be the be-all and end-all but it isn't. Like I said, very good review sprinkled with some new stuff and a unique presentation.

The "revelation of the killer" is in the book. Unfortunately, for legal and moral reasons it wasn't and/or can't be stated as such.

It was Burke, and that is all that really needs to be addressed.

 

[Chrishope]

blefuscu,
More than likely because by the time that option arose it was nearly time to dial 911?

Obviously this is not the case, as they (if working jointly) would be in complete control of when or whether a 911 call was made.

If the plan had been to dump the body, and they were working together, then that would be taken care of before the 911 call was placed. They have to call their pilot, and they have to call the older kids at some point, but they are under no pressure to make the 911 call at 5:52, or even 9:52. The RN gives them an excellent reason not to make a 911 call at all.

JonBenet's death was not planned either was her staging it was simply three amateurs attempting to evade prosecution using whatever means they thought appropriate.

I think that's right, it was not planned.

Also dumping JonBenet outdoors really meant: somewhere she could never be found since if found, all the forensic evidence on her body and clothing becomes available including the pineapple remains.

.

Obviously "somewhere she could never be found" is not at all necessary.
The alternative is to have her found in the house, in which case all the same forensic evidence becomes available, including the pineapple remains.

If she were found outdoors, shortly after being dumped, the forensic evidence would be essentially the same as finding the body in the house. There being no disadvantage compared to finding the body in the house, it's obvious then that this was not a consideration when deciding whether or not to dump the body.

It would of course be ideal if the body were never found. Almost as good would be finding it weeks/months later, when much of the forensic evidence would be destroyed by decay.

There would of course be forensic evidence unique to being outdoors, but that would be expected if the body were dumped.

Dumping the body outdoors gives a better chance of reducing the forensic evidence (if they are lucky and the body isn't found soon) and of course it makes the kidnapping plausible.

 

[Chrishope]

I didn't hear it yet. I'll have to listen to it in the archives. I wonder how he would have proof of when they were opened? That would be a hard thing to prove. Odd, though- why would anyone PARTIALLY open presents on Christmas Day? I don't think I can think of a single reason. You OPEN a present completely...or not at all. It also does not explain the partially opened presents found in the winecellar. That is an odd place to open gifts on Christmas Day- in a filthy, moldy room instead of under the tree.
Sorry- I am not buying it, not unless Kolar was also able to say how he knew that as a fact. Obviously some gifts were opened Christmas Day...but let's not forget that Patsy, when asked about the partially opened gifts in the wine cellar, admitted leaving some gifts intended for other relatives in the wine cellar to be mailed when she got home from their trip. Among them were gifs for her niece Jenny- the intended recipient of the size 12 Bloomies panties.

I'm not buying it either. My first thought was - if the panties were opened, wouldn't it be likely they'd be placed in a drawer? Who would open a package of panties then leave them in the basement?

 

[Nom de plume]

You're right. If both parents were in on it, the body would have been moved. But, the body probably wouldn't be moved at night. Neighbors might notice. But the RN provides JR with an excuse to be driving around - he's making the ransom drop. He might do it after dark, but not the night of the murder. There had to be time to fake a ransom call and to get PR and BR out of the house.

Not necessarily. If they were both in on it together, and the original plan was to dump her outside, but PR changed her mind it could account for her not being moved. I could easily see PR not wanting JB to be left out for animals to feast on her body and left to decay. If this is the case, it would have put JR & PR at odds, with JR insisting they dump her and PR insisting they don't. PR might have threatened JR. What else could he do if she threatened to rat him out? JB was either going to be dumped elsewhere, or found in the house. I see no other options.

By stashing her in the WC, JR might have hoped that she wouldn't be found, and eventually LE would leave. Then he could "find" her on the back steps (or where ever) that night, when the "kidnappers" killed her and dumped her back at home. It seems ridiculous to think LE would leave them alone, but he may not have had any other choice when PR refused to dump her. Hope for the best, and deal with it if the worst happened. (I think this might account for the cold attitude JR had towards PR that morning. He was POd that she wouldn't let him dump JB knowing how bad it would be for her to be found in the house.)

Obviously, LE wasn't finding her, and they weren't leaving either. My guess is that during his "JR was missing" trip to the basement, he noticed the scent of decomp starting and figured he didn't have any other choice at that point but to "find" her.

BTW, I do think JR was the one that did everything, with maybe the exception of writing the RN, but I also believe PR knew what happened. IMO there's no other way to account for PR's statements and behavior after the fact. Even if she didn't actually do anything, she had to be aware that JR did.

:moo:

 

[InstantProof]

Not necessarily. If they were both in on it together, and the original plan was to dump her outside, but PR changed her mind it could account for her not being moved. I could easily see PR not wanting JB to be left out for animals to feast on her body and left to decay. If this is the case, it would have put JR & PR at odds, with JR insisting they dump her and PR insisting they don't.

:moo:

I don't have a particular theory on this case but I do believe that J & P were at odds about what to do and this is why the staged evidence makes no sense.

 

[UKGuy]

I didn't hear it yet. I'll have to listen to it in the archives. I wonder how he would have proof of when they were opened? That would be a hard thing to prove. Odd, though- why would anyone PARTIALLY open presents on Christmas Day? I don't think I can think of a single reason. You OPEN a present completely...or not at all. It also does not explain the partially opened presents found in the winecellar. That is an odd place to open gifts on Christmas Day- in a filthy, moldy room instead of under the tree.
Sorry- I am not buying it, not unless Kolar was also able to say how he knew that as a fact. Obviously some gifts were opened Christmas Day...but let's not forget that Patsy, when asked about the partially opened gifts in the wine cellar, admitted leaving some gifts intended for other relatives in the wine cellar to be mailed when she got home from their trip. Among them were gifs for her niece Jenny- the intended recipient of the size 12 Bloomies panties.

DeeDee249,
Its part of his reply to maybe the second question, to Cherokee? Paraphrasing, she suggests JonBenet and BR go down to the basement and partially open the gifts?

Kolar goes out of his way to reject this, saying the presents had been torn open earlier that day prior to going to the White's party, he was quite adamant about this!

Kolar does not tell us how he knows this.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Not necessarily. If they were both in on it together, and the original plan was to dump her outside, but PR changed her mind it could account for her not being moved.

That's true.

I could easily see PR not wanting JB to be left out for animals to feast on her body and left to decay. If this is the case, it would have put JR & PR at odds, with JR insisting they dump her and PR insisting they don't. PR might have threatened JR. What else could he do if she threatened to rat him out? JB was either going to be dumped elsewhere, or found in the house. I see no other options.

OK, but it's a bit late in the game to get squeamish. The time to be concerned with your daughter's welfare is before the life is squeezed out of her and before her skull is broken. IOWs, I've never accepted that someone willing to kill would worry about the body being eaten by animals/insects. Of course JR might have done the killing and PR just goes along with the cover-up, but isn't willing to go THAT far. Still, she's implicated herself in murder at this point so a concern with the body is at odds with self preservation. Choices: let the body be eaten by rats, or go to the gas chamber.

By stashing her in the WC, JR might have hoped that she wouldn't be found, and eventually LE would leave.

DeeDee also believes that. I find it hard to believe rational people (I assume rationality because I don't know how to approach true insanity) would think the cops would show up, ask a couple questions then leave. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that the killer would not anticipate bringing dogs to the crime scene, which would virtually guarantee finding the body in short order. I just don't think there is any chance they thought the police would leave. To make the 911 call is to hand over the body.

Then he could "find" her on the back steps (or where ever) that night, when the "kidnappers" killed her and dumped her back at home. It seems ridiculous to think LE would leave them alone, but he may not have had any other choice when PR refused to dump her. Hope for the best, and deal with it if the worst happened. (I think this might account for the cold attitude JR had towards PR that morning. He was POd that she wouldn't let him dump JB knowing how bad it would be for her to be found in the house.)

This also tracks pretty close with DeeDee's analysis, so you are in good company. I find it unconvincing. This gets into more of what a reasonable person would anticipate the police doing. If the police conducted undercover surveillance (ostensibly watching for kidnappers but maybe also to watch the prime suspects activities) and then the body "showed up" they'd be cooked. The police would know that no one brought the body back. IMO this would be anticipated by a reasonable person. I think both Rs are reasonable, and intelligent.

I also find it hard to believe that PR wins out over JR in a contest of wills, especially when they are both looking at murder charges.

Dumping the body is a far better option if you are running a fake kidnapping gambit, and since the RN sets out the elements of a kidnapping we know that was the plan.

Obviously, LE wasn't finding her, and they weren't leaving either. My guess is that during his "JR was missing" trip to the basement, he noticed the scent of decomp starting and figured he didn't have any other choice at that point but to "find" her.

Could be. Could also be that he simply realized that the body was going to be found sooner or later (later or much later, 7 hours?) LA gave him the opportunity to go "find" her and he took it. I've always wondered what would have happened if she hadn't sent JR and FW off looking around the house.

BTW, I do think JR was the one that did everything, with maybe the exception of writing the RN, but I also believe PR knew what happened. IMO there's no other way to account for PR's statements and behavior after the fact. Even if she didn't actually do anything, she had to be aware that JR did.

:moo:

Well I can see that point of view. It is very hard to believe PR wasn't involved. I don't think there would be a body and a RN if PR was involved.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm not buying it either. My first thought was - if the panties were opened, wouldn't it be likely they'd be placed in a drawer? Who would open a package of panties then leave them in the basement?

I believe the panties were opened- the very same package meant for JB's older cousin Jenny. I believe they were opened because they were right there in the basement (where I believe JB was wiped of the blood from her thighs, and redressed in them). I believe this was done for one (possibly three) reasons One is that they wouldn't have to go back to JB's room to get a pair or her own. Two is that Patsy knew all her own panties were stained with feces and she didn't want JB to be found in stained panties. (the police conformed this- they said that every single pair of JB's panties they found had fecal staining).
Three is that there is a possibility that JB wore a pair identical to them to the White's in her own size. Christmas that year was a Wednesday, and that is the day printed on the waistband of the panties she was wearing. JN was known to ask any nearby adult to help her wipe after using the toilet. There was a risk that someone would have taken notice of novelty panties that said
Wednesday and might have been asked about it by LE.

What I don't by is that they "partially" opened presents on Christmas Day. They either opened them or not.

 

[blefuscu]

I agree with DeeDee, they were used because they were close to hand. Don't think it was PR though, just don't believe she had the mental capacity to hold it together for as long as she did. She was in a complete mess by the time her friends got there. I can't imagine she'd been holding that all in for hours.

 

[Chelly]

I agree with DeeDee, they were used because they were close to hand. Don't think it was PR though, just don't believe she had the mental capacity to hold it together for as long as she did. She was in a complete mess by the time her friends got there. I can't imagine she'd been holding that all in for hours.

She held it all in long enough to have a freshly made-up face and styled-hair- do for police arrival shortly after her 911 call.

 

[madeleine]

this subject is very confusing for me.

the size 12 package that was intended for jenny and was stored in the basement....was it opened?i mean the panties package, NOT the package it was wrapped in as a gift (I know that one was partially open).....

is one of the pairs missing from that package?i mean,is it fact that the pair JB was redressed in is coming from that particular new package?

cause if so and there is Ramsey DNA on it>>>busted
their DNA can't be on that new pair unless they are guilty

confused ....I can't find all the info I need re this one....

TIA

 

[Chrishope]

I believe the panties were opened- the very same package meant for JB's older cousin Jenny. I believe they were opened because they were right there in the basement (where I believe JB was wiped of the blood from her thighs, and redressed in them). I believe this was done for one (possibly three) reasons One is that they wouldn't have to go back to JB's room to get a pair or her own.

I agree, with the modification that it was JR who wouldn't be able to go back to her room - not w/o risking waking up PR and BR. If Patsy were in on it there would be no reason, other than laziness, not to go back upstairs and get the right size.

Two is that Patsy knew all her own panties were stained with feces and she didn't want JB to be found in stained panties. (the police conformed this- they said that every single pair of JB's panties they found had fecal staining).

I don't think there was a plan to have the body found, so we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Three is that there is a possibility that JB wore a pair identical to them to the White's in her own size. Christmas that year was a Wednesday, and that is the day printed on the waistband of the panties she was wearing. JN was known to ask any nearby adult to help her wipe after using the toilet. There was a risk that someone would have taken notice of novelty panties that said
Wednesday and might have been asked about it by LE.

I used to think that, but then I realized that they could have simply said she changed when she got home. The ljs were, supposedly, put on at bedtime, and she might have needed a change of undies anyway. So even if someone at the party had seen the Wed. marking, it would be easy enough to explain her wearing something else when found.

I think JR used them because they were close at hand. I think he assumed the Wed feature was more important than it really was.

What I don't by is that they "partially" opened presents on Christmas Day. They either opened them or not.

No, I don't buy that either. One present maybe. If someone was interrupted while opening a present I could see one partially opened. But people don't partially open several presents.

 

[Nom de plume]

Response in red.

That's true.



OK, but it's a bit late in the game to get squeamish. The time to be concerned with your daughter's welfare is before the life is squeezed out of her and before her skull is broken. True. ITA but if JR did kill JB, and PR wasn't a part of it then she could very well become squeamish. IOWs, I've never accepted that someone willing to kill would worry about the body being eaten by animals/insects. Again, if PR didn't actually do the killing... Also, you are viewing this in a logical manner. PR would not be very logical if JR had just killed their daughter without her participation. The thought of her "pageant princess" daughter being chewed on and rotting was probably too much for her. Of course JR might have done the killing and PR just goes along with the cover-up, but isn't willing to go THAT far. Still, she's implicated herself in murder at this point so a concern with the body is at odds with self preservation. Choices: let the body be eaten by rats, or go to the gas chamber. ITA. It is at odds with self preservation, but often times a mother is willing to sacrifice herself for her child. JB was already dead, but PR might have been willing to chance it so JB could have a proper burial.



DeeDee also believes that. I find it hard to believe rational people (I assume rationality because I don't know how to approach true insanity) would think the cops would show up, ask a couple questions then leave. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that the killer would not anticipate bringing dogs to the crime scene, which would virtually guarantee finding the body in short order. I just don't think there is any chance they thought the police would leave. To make the 911 call is to hand over the body. Again, rational thought vs irrational thought. I see JR being the rational one, knowing they had to get her out of the house, and PR being hysterical, refusing to let her be dumped. I also believe JR didn't really think they'd leave, but hoping was their last chance. I doubt PR gave it much thought one way or the other.



This also tracks pretty close with DeeDee's analysis, so you are in good company. I find it unconvincing. This gets into more of what a reasonable person would anticipate the police doing. If the police conducted undercover surveillance (ostensibly watching for kidnappers but maybe also to watch the prime suspects activities) and then the body "showed up" they'd be cooked. The police would know that no one brought the body back. IMO this would be anticipated by a reasonable person. I think both Rs are reasonable, and intelligent. ITA with all you've said here, but at the point JR knows if he dumps JB PR will rat him out, he had no other choice but to hope he could slip by with it.

I also find it hard to believe that PR wins out over JR in a contest of wills, especially when they are both looking at murder charges. Under normal circumstances yes. With the threat of your wife turning you in for child molestation and murder, PR wins hands down.

Dumping the body is a far better option if you are running a fake kidnapping gambit, and since the RN sets out the elements of a kidnapping we know that was the plan. ITA



Could be. Could also be that he simply realized that the body was going to be found sooner or later (later or much later, 7 hours?) LA gave him the opportunity to go "find" her and he took it. I've always wondered what would have happened if she hadn't sent JR and FW off looking around the house. Ah yes! It's like she gift wrapped JR's excuse and handed it to him on a silver platter. He must have thought he was the luckiest man on earth at that point. I too have often wondered what would have happened had LA not told them to search again.



Well I can see that point of view. It is very hard to believe PR wasn't involved. I don't think there would be a body and a RN if PR was involved. Agreed again. If this were a premeditated murder, by both parents, I believe things would have been much different. Even premeditated by JR, I think he would have done things differently. IMO, JR was abusing JB and something happened to cause a blind rage, reflex reaction in him. (A bite to a very sensitive area perhaps?) He lashed out and just hit her too hard, with whatever was in his hand at the moment. (Flashlight still makes the most sense to me.) I don't think he really intended to kill her, but once the head bash was done there was no turning back if he wanted to CYA. He could have called 911, but the abuse would have been discovered and the head bash couldn't be explained by an accident. He chose his own backside over the life of his daughter. I think PR covered for him because 1. She was aware of the abuse, and possibly even condoned it, or at the very least did nothing to stop it. 2. She didn't want to give up the lifestyle, face the public shame and humiliation, and 3. Was worried her cancer would return and BR would be left without either parent. At the last minute she started thinking about JB being left outdoors and what would happen to her, and she just lost it. I think if she'd have gone along with JR's plan to dump her, things would have gone a lot better for the R's than they did.

 

[Chrishope]

Response in red.

Everything you've said makes sense and could well be true.

My tendency is to analyze the case as if the culprit(s) is always trying to maximize the chance of getting away with murder. That need not be true of course.

 

[blefuscu]

blefuscu,
More than likely because by the time that option arose it was nearly time to dial 911?

JonBenet's death was not planned either was her staging it was simply three amateurs attempting to evade prosecution using whatever means they thought appropriate.

Also dumping JonBenet outdoors really meant: somewhere she could never be found since if found, all the forensic evidence on her body and clothing becomes available including the pineapple remains.

.

I think they could have delayed calling the police any time to to around 9am-9.30 of BDI. It's the day after Christmas, John goes, disposes of the body, they were meant to be travelling to GA weren't they, so he says he's dealing with work/or with JAR before they go. Everyone could prentend to be busy getting ready, and when he arrives back THEN the alarm is raised. OMG she was gone when I left, patsy and Burke are away upstairs to get ready, JB left downstairs eating breakfast. JR comes back and finds the note (which PR would write while John was out). PANIC, PHONE POLICE, NEE-NAW NEE-NAW. Body gone, note saying kidnapped in place.

Can't see why any theory that anyone but an adult individual had done it. If they were in it together the body could have been taken out of the home in the middle of the night, with the other alibiing them. Then "wake up" next morning and OMG, note there, JB gone. PANIC.....

If one person kills JB then they can't sneak out because how do they explain if they are caught to the other partner. Part of me honestly believes that JDI and that Patsy had no clue. And her panic and ringing the police blew his plans of disposal wide apart and so he had to change it when he "lost" the policewoman later, and moved the body a few feet further to the door of the WC to be found.

 

[blefuscu]

:scared:

She held it all in long enough to have a freshly made-up face and styled-hair- do for police arrival shortly after her 911 call.

She may have done her hair/make up before she went downstairs and found the note