James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[Detective Pinkie]

SapphireSteel,
Well I have taken a long hard look at the Madeleine McCann case, and I reckon its literally what the R's staged, i.e. the kidnapping of their daughter.

In the McCann's case their daughter was truly spirited away, in the Ramsey case the daughter remained on the premises.

Your attribution of neglect to the McCanns is uncharitable, they were a middle class family who assumed their enviroment was safe, so went out one evening to enjoy the cafe culture.
Patently someone was watching and waiting, they cannot be blamed for someone elses evil intent.

I have the greatest admiration for the manner in which both parents have coped with the stress of losing Madeleine, and all the consequent media gossip, despite this they continue to function as a family.

Madeleine might yet be found, just as other kidnapped girls have. The BBC will shortly broadcast an appeal using new evidence based on an analysis of the phone records gathered in the days leading up to and beyond the time when Madeleine went missing.

.

BBM. 100% disagree here UKGuy. You do not leave a 3-year-old and 2 babies at home alone so you can party with your friends. That is not to say that it is their fault that someone broke in and kidnapped their daughter (IF that is what happened) but it is 1 of thousands of things that could have gone wrong. What if there had been a fire? What if Madeleine woke up and got into something she shouldn't have, like the knife drawer or a bottle of bleach? What if one of the babies cried the whole time between "check ups"? That, to my mind, is at minimum neglect.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM. 100% disagree here UKGuy. You do not leave a 3-year-old and 2 babies at home alone so you can party with your friends. That is not to say that it is their fault that someone broke in and kidnapped their daughter (IF that is what happened) but it is 1 of thousands of things that could have gone wrong. What if there had been a fire? What if Madeleine woke up and got into something she shouldn't have, like the knife drawer or a bottle of bleach? What if one of the babies cried the whole time between "check ups"? That, to my mind, is at minimum neglect.

Detective Pinkie,
The world that we inhabit is not perfect. If it was then your remarks would be valid.

You have to allow for parental indifference or disregard since no parent is perfect.

Children can do stuff anywhere anytime, this is the natural instinct of curiosity in motion, I see it all the time in malls I visit with babies putting uknown objects in their mouths, they simply wish to experience their immediate enviroment in a direct manner?

They partied with their friends bacause they mistakenly believed Madeleine was safe. That was their mistake, in the UK their surroundings were impicitly safe, their mistake was to translate that middle class assumption to a foreign country, ie. it all seemed familiar bars, night music, nice menus etc.

The difference being someone was targetting Madeleine.


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Detective Pinkie,
The world that we inhabit is not perfect. If it was then your remarks would be valid.

You have to allow for parental indifference or disregard since no parent is perfect.

Children can do stuff anywhere anytime, this is the natural instinct of curiosity in motion, I see it all the time in malls I visit with babies putting uknown objects in their mouths, they simply wish to experience their immediate enviroment in a direct manner?

They partied with their friends bacause they mistakenly believed Madeleine was safe. That was their mistake, in the UK their surroundings were impicitly safe, their mistake was to translate that middle class assumption to a foreign country, ie. it all seemed familiar bars, night music, nice menus etc.

The difference being someone was targetting Madeleine.


.

IDI is highly unlikely in both cases, not least because there is a mountain of evidence saying otherwise.

:sick:

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Detective Pinkie,
The world that we inhabit is not perfect. If it was then your remarks would be valid.

You have to allow for parental indifference or disregard since no parent is perfect.

Children can do stuff anywhere anytime, this is the natural instinct of curiosity in motion, I see it all the time in malls I visit with babies putting uknown objects in their mouths, they simply wish to experience their immediate enviroment in a direct manner?

They partied with their friends bacause they mistakenly believed Madeleine was safe. That was their mistake, in the UK their surroundings were impicitly safe, their mistake was to translate that middle class assumption to a foreign country, ie. it all seemed familiar bars, night music, nice menus etc.

The difference being someone was targetting Madeleine.


.

IDI is highly unlikely in both cases, not least because there is a mountain of evidence saying otherwise.

:sick:

:cow:

 

[Detective Pinkie]

Detective Pinkie,
The world that we inhabit is not perfect. If it was then your remarks would be valid.

You have to allow for parental indifference or disregard since no parent is perfect.

Children can do stuff anywhere anytime, this is the natural instinct of curiosity in motion, I see it all the time in malls I visit with babies putting uknown objects in their mouths, they simply wish to experience their immediate enviroment in a direct manner?

They partied with their friends bacause they mistakenly believed Madeleine was safe. That was their mistake, in the UK their surroundings were impicitly safe, their mistake was to translate that middle class assumption to a foreign country, ie. it all seemed familiar bars, night music, nice menus etc.

The difference being someone was targetting Madeleine.


.

I call BS. She wouldn't have been safe if she was in the UK and they pulled the same thing. You DON'T leave children of that age alone for that amount of time simply so you can have a good time with your mates. They weren't just in another room they were in another building altogether, that is bad parenting, in my book.
Look, I have 3 kids under 9 and you are correct, they get into stuff. I have had an incident myself where my middle child was 2 or 3 and got into some baby panadol that I had just given his younger brother. I had not put the lid on properly and he climbed on the bench and got it down. Panic rush to emergency but all ok because I don't think he had drunk much, if any (it was all over his clothes) and the nurse said they put them in tiny bottles for just this reason. However, I was in the same house and found him within minutes. I was not at a cafe, down the road or even just next door.

The world is not perfect. Sometimes, children being children, stuff happens. Sometimes you are busy, especially if you are working or have other children, sometimes you are exhausted and you have a little nap, sometimes you get distracted - life happens. But willful disregard for your children's safety so you can have a good time - no excuse is good enough.

 

[FrayedKnot]

I call BS. She wouldn't have been safe if she was in the UK and they pulled the same thing. You DON'T leave children of that age alone for that amount of time simply so you can have a good time with your mates. They weren't just in another room they were in another building altogether, that is bad parenting, in my book.
Look, I have 3 kids under 9 and you are correct, they get into stuff. I have had an incident myself where my middle child was 2 or 3 and got into some baby panadol that I had just given his younger brother. I had not put the lid on properly and he climbed on the bench and got it down. Panic rush to emergency but all ok because I don't think he had drunk much, if any (it was all over his clothes) and the nurse said they put them in tiny bottles for just this reason. However, I was in the same house and found him within minutes. I was not at a cafe, down the road or even just next door.

The world is not perfect. Sometimes, children being children, stuff happens. Sometimes you are busy, especially if you are working or have other children, sometimes you are exhausted and you have a little nap, sometimes you get distracted - life happens. But willful disregard for your children's safety so you can have a good time - no excuse is good enough.

I appreciate a European's POV on Madeleine's case.

I have had the feeling, based on media and posts of those following, that leaving very young children unattended is trés Europe, and that Americans are overly vigilant and have no understanding of "how it's done" across the pond.

And my gut tells me this is utter crap. So thank you for reinforcing my gut feeling that this sort of thing is neglectful no matter WHERE one lives.

 

[DeeDee249]

I appreciate a European's POV on Madeleine's case.

I have had the feeling, based on media and posts of those following, that leaving very young children unattended is trés Europe, and that Americans are overly vigilant and have no understanding of "how it's done" across the pond.

And my gut tells me this is utter crap. So thank you for reinforcing my gut feeling that this sort of thing is neglectful no matter WHERE one lives.

Madeline was abducted from a hotel room, not her own home, so I suppose things like a knife drawer or bleach were not a concern. But I do recall one case in NYC several years ago when a tourist couple from Europe were in a cafe and left their sleeping baby outside in a stroller right outside the window where they were sitting. Some one called police, they were arrested and the baby placed with child protective services. They eventually got the baby back, and offered the explanation that they were European and this kind of thing was not unusual for them.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ok first of all I wouldn't describe the McCann's as European, simply because they're not.

Europe is a continent and the UK is an island.

Second of all, any other parent would have been charged with neglect. The McCanns were not, and the WHY NOT needs to be answered?

Unfortunately the UK has no specific neglect laws, but any idiot knows you don't leave little babies alone at night for hours and hours while you go out partying.

Things happen when very little children are left alone for hours. Bad things.

What makes it even more inexcusable is the McCanns admit they knew Madeleine and her baby brother had woken on the night before, and cried for an extended period of time (75 minutes).

Madeleine asked them where they were, and why they didn't come.

Those two babies were alone and terrified and the McCanns KNEW IT, yet they still chose to skip on out again the next night.

:sick:

This is not just careless behaviour, this is outright criminal neglect. A strange room, a strange country, unusual noises and sounds....those poor little babies must've been petrified alone crying in the dark.

:cow:

Oops sorry :rant: off topic. I thought for a minute there I was back on the McCann threads. :blush:

But it's interesting to note EVEN THE RAMSEYS took their kids out with them when they left the house, or organised child care if they didn't.

:banghead:

 

[FrayedKnot]

Ok first of all I wouldn't describe the McCann's as European, simply because they're not.

Europe is a continent and the UK is an island.

Second of all, any other parent would have been charged with neglect. The McCanns were not, and the WHY NOT needs to be answered?

Unfortunately the UK has no specific neglect laws, but any idiot knows you don't leave little babies alone at night for hours and hours while you go out partying.

Things happen when very little children are left alone for hours. Bad things.

What makes it even more inexcusable is the McCanns admit they knew Madeleine and her baby brother had woken on the night before, and cried for an extended period of time (75 minutes).

Madeleine asked them where they were, and why they didn't come.

Those two babies were alone and terrified and the McCanns KNEW IT, yet they still chose to skip on out again the next night.

:sick:

This is not just careless behaviour, this is outright criminal neglect. A strange room, a strange country, unusual noises and sounds....those poor little babies must've been petrified alone crying in the dark.

:cow:

Oops sorry :rant: off topic. I thought for a minute there I was back on the McCann threads. :blush:

But it's interesting to note EVEN THE RAMSEYS took their kids out with them when they left the house, or organised child care if they didn't.

:banghead:

Point taken, British Isles are not part of the Continent. But in my defense, I have read REPEATEDLY that people from UK/Europe do not see what the big deal is with leaving their kids alone. :waitasec:

And as a jerkwad American, I DO see a problem with it. It is just negligent. And it makes me as mad as it does you.

And I agree. Even the RAMSEYS uke: wouldn't go to dinner and leave their children alone all night. Pretty bad when JR and PR are better parents than you.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Point taken, British Isles are not part of the Continent. But in my defense, I have read REPEATEDLY that people from UK/Europe do not see what the big deal is with leaving their kids alone. :waitasec:

And as a jerkwad American, I DO see a problem with it. It is just negligent. And it makes me as mad as it does you.

And I agree. Even the RAMSEYS uke: wouldn't go to dinner and leave their children alone all night. Pretty bad when JR and PR are better parents than you.

Here's a local from the McCann village of Rothley, having her say.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0wCsXBj_pU"]Woman in Rothley speaking about the McCanns - YouTube[/ame]

And yes, it is truly stunning to contemplate that the Ramseys were better parents...!

:sick:

The Ramseys wrote the script on How To Cover Up The Unfortunate Death Of Your Child, and the McCanns followed it faithfully.

 

[Detective Pinkie]

I appreciate a European's POV on Madeleine's case.

I have had the feeling, based on media and posts of those following, that leaving very young children unattended is trés Europe, and that Americans are overly vigilant and have no understanding of "how it's done" across the pond.

And my gut tells me this is utter crap. So thank you for reinforcing my gut feeling that this sort of thing is neglectful no matter WHERE one lives.

Thanks FrayedKnot. I am not European, true blue Aussie through and through. People get in trouble for leaving their dogs locked in cars here, let alone children.

As UKGuy has said kids are curious, who knows what Madeline could have got into. Maybe not knives or bleach but it could be hundreds of other things. Climb on something and fall off, break something and cut herself on it, put something in her mouth and choke on it, etc. And I could keep going. Sure any of these things could happen anytime, but if there is competent, responsible supervision you can stop it before it happens or at least know how to handle an emergency should something happen.

What if something like a fire or gas leak happened? A 3-year-old would have trouble saving themselves, let alone 2 babies. And what about the cruelty of just leaving little children to cry, frightened and alone in a strange place? Their decision was motivated by pure selfishness and I can not give feel any sympathy for that.

 

[chlban]

[

QUOTE=DeeDee249;9883308]Madeline was abducted from a hotel room, not her own home, so I suppose things like a knife drawer or bleach were not a concern.

I don't believe Madeline was abducted, but that is another thread.

 

[SapphireSteel]

[

I don't believe Madeline was abducted, but that is another thread.

Well come join us, it's been pretty lonely fighting the relentless IDI insanity largely by myself over there for the last couple of years.

 

[blefuscu]

Point taken, British Isles are not part of the Continent. But in my defense, I have read REPEATEDLY that people from UK/Europe do not see what the big deal is with leaving their kids alone. :waitasec:

And as a jerkwad American, I DO see a problem with it. It is just negligent. And it makes me as mad as it does you.

And I agree. Even the RAMSEYS uke: wouldn't go to dinner and leave their children alone all night. Pretty bad when JR and PR are better parents than you.

Have to correct you here, I can't speak for all the other European nations, but leaving your children so you can eat is not condoned by most UK residents. A certain "class" of people leave their children alone in a room while they eat and drink. These middle class people feel that they deserve adult time.

Most UK residents were appalled that the McCann children were left alone. I'm British, I have 3 children (2 teens and an 8 year old) and I wouldn't leave them alone while I went out to eat. They are my life. I took my girls to restaurants from a very early age (3 weeks, in my brother in law's restaurant for my eldest). They learned to socialise properly, act appropriately and be part of the family. I don't understand taking your child on holiday and then palming them off to kids clubs, or leaving babies and toddlers alone.

 

[Venom]

Have to correct you here, I can't speak for all the other European nations, but leaving your children so you can eat is not condoned by most UK residents. A certain "class" of people leave their children alone in a room while they eat and drink. These middle class people feel that they deserve adult time.

Most UK residents were appalled that the McCann children were left alone. I'm British, I have 3 children (2 teens and an 8 year old) and I wouldn't leave them alone while I went out to eat. They are my life. I took my girls to restaurants from a very early age (3 weeks, in my brother in law's restaurant for my eldest). They learned to socialise properly, act appropriately and be part of the family. I don't understand taking your child on holiday and then palming them off to kids clubs, or leaving babies and toddlers alone.

BBM. Me either, then why not just leave them at home with a babysitter?
:scared:

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM. Me either, then why not just leave them at home with a babysitter?
:scared:

Because they are accessories ! Inconvenient accessories they want to leave all alone in a room when they have something better to do than be parents. IMO


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[fedfan4life]

Right. And, just how would it look to go on a family vacation w/o the family? One consistency in these cases is the need for these parents to be perceived as good, capable, loving parents. They want the affirmation and attention that that perception affords, but they do not want to put in the hard work necessary to make it a reality. Laziness and selfishness. It's clearly present in both the Ramsey and McCann stories.

 

[tezi]

Well come join us, it's been pretty lonely fighting the relentless IDI insanity largely by myself over there for the last couple of years.

Well, Sapphire, some of us have joined you! Needless to say, we are facing the same mess there as we have here. It's enough to make me pull my hair out. However, we will keep fighting the good fight for Maddie as well as JonBenet.

JMO

 

[Pocono Sleuther]

Linda7NJ,
Yes I agree, spoons are spoons to children small or large. If they are bigger than their mouth surely they could be serving spoons?

Reminds me off the size-12's, just who in that household would consider size-12's an acceptable change of underwear?




.

Holy carp. I've never thought of that! PR and JR would know that size 12s wouldn't be interchangeable with JBRs size even if they were the same print/type. BUT to a young boy? They'd all look the same. Children don't think the way adults do, esp boys when it comes to clothing. A boy might think...well they're the same so no one will even notice the difference.

When I look back and really consider BDI (which I def believe), things make so much more sense.


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[SapphireSteel]

How on earth does a 9 year old boy manipulate his dying sister into a pair of oversize underpants?

Why would he? That would mean Burke performed his own "staging" of the crime scene...at 9??????

I have wondered if it was Patsy's way of saying "put your big girl pants on JB, and deal with it".....whatever "it" was.

:sick: