JDI - A Possible Prosecution?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
I have no idea what happened in the R's house that night, I do however have more than my share of theories. I find it hard to believe that JR, if he was guilty of molesting JonBenet over a long period of time, would still have been satisfied with digital stimulation.

We know, from LHP that JonBenet and BR had been involved playing 'games', under the covers, at least one time. We also know that BR's and JonBenets bladder and bowel habits were odd, to say the least, let alone the counseling that both children were reported to be involved in.

There is no doubt in my mind that JonBenet had been undergoing sexual abuse, it's more of a question to me whether BR was a victim or a perpetrator of abuse, or both.

As for JR, he is egotistical, reported to have been cold and distant from his second family and imho, very strange to have a picture of his deceased daughter Beth, in his bathroom. In HIS bathrrom. What is this all about?
 
From the JDI camp, here we have a ransom note, a supposed kidnapping, a dead daughter, and what's the first reference to any R family memberin the body of the ransom note? JB? No, JR's business. Now what person in the R family do you suppose would attach the most significance to JR's business? Added to that we are confronted with "the kidnapper/s" who just couldn't resist having to say they respected JR's business. Anyone see Narcissus here looking in the pool at his own reflection?

Where did the idea for a small foreign faction originate? Surely not from the pageant world or ladies' luncheons, church maybe?

foreign:
"adjective

Of, from, or characteristic of another place or part of the world:
alien, exotic, strange. (Archaic) outlandish. See native

Not part of the essential nature of a thing:
alien, extraneous, extrinsic.

foreign implies that the external object is organically so different that it cannot become assimilated: a foreign substance in the blood;"
http://thesaurus.yourdictionary.com/foreign


Soooo, the use of the word 'foreign' could also include something someone has done that the person interprets as quite alien to their being or rather alien to how they wish to view themselves.

Combine small foreign faction and kidnapping, and the first thing that comes to my mind is the SLA's kidnapping of Patty Hearst. While not from another country, the SLA faction did present an ideology that was foreign to the majority of Americans at the time, and still would today. Not many people condone bank robbery or murder.

The second thing that comes to mind is Ross Perot, the CEO of Electronic Data Systems who, with help, rescued two of his high-ranking employees who had been kidnapped and were being held in Iran which was undergoing a revolution in 1978, and through which the Shah of Iran was ultimately unseated and exhiled to the US.

This is kind of talking around the point, but I would imagine at least anyone who lived through those times, ie., persons of JR's age would remember these incidences well. It's also to say the use of "a small foreign faction" was not some rabbit pulled out of a hat.

It is my belief that the writer of the ransom note was not PR. I fully believe if she'd written it, the note would have remained addressed to Mr. and Mrs. R!! She would not have omitted herself from the heading. No, not ever! It bears repeating. She would not have omitted herself from the heading if she was its writer nor would she have allowed her name to be removed if she cooperated in the writing. Let this sink in. This is the most important clue outside of handwriting analysis as to who wrote the note. IMO, the person who wrote the note not only wanted PR included as a suspect, but tried to make the note look and sound like her by degrees, but not so much that it would smack her upside the head with its obviousness.
 
MM,

By reading all these wonderfull posts/replyes above, I was planning to stay aside and see where your (DocG, Christian, some others... and now you!!!!) theory will lead us. I'm affraid it'll lead us to BLIDNESS. I'm begging you (and others!) to not forgot about behavior aspect of this case.

Our knowledge about this case comes from TV, radio, newspaper, legal and medical experts, rumors, interviews, released to public documents...but the main source of information comes from written books: PMPT, ST, Police Files, Ramsey's books, experts analysis and finally...Kolar book. Kolar made the best behavioral assay than anyone before him. He 'expose' certain unknown aspects of BR bahavior but the most important he paids enourmous amount of attention to John Ramsey. Why? IMO, because:

Patsy

Patsy is already dead. Patsy, the main suspect 'under umbrella of suspicious' for many-many years by LE and public's opinion, the 'Patsy Did It' 'beaten hourse' is gone. From the behavoir point of view, Patsy was the opened book. No wonder why! Patsy's worst enemy was Patsy herself!!! Arogant lier, bit**y, emotionally unstaible, drama-queen with the big mouth and never ending diarrhea of self-grandioseness....while John Ramsey was standing in her shadow as the innocent, grieving bystander.

John

John was the deal-making man. Cold, calculated, reserved. He is the one who makes money, connections and business decisions. The reason why this case never saw the day in court (and possibly never WILL!) is because of John, his money and his connections. But he's far from being innocent! His actions are very revealing, starting with the 911 call with Burke's voice on the background, the broken window in the basement, conviniently 'finding' JB's body....and this is not all!!! This only PROOFS that he KNEW more than he's pretending to know = John is LIER.

But, does John is the child molester? I've been posting on this topic too many times. I only repeat the main points here.

- child molestation is the SICKNESS. This sickness couldn't just happens to 50 year old male. Please take your time and read yourself about this psychological disease. Child molester CANNOT cure himself!...and if not treated properly, child molester is always will be child molester. No way out! I'm sure you'll be able to produce many examples of MARRIED man who's sexually abusing other children or/and performing incest inside of his own family. However, if you knew the history of this men - you've learn that he was the child molester the majority of his life!...So, I'll repeat my question again? What evidences do we have to SUGGEST that John just becomes child molester after Patsy becomes 'not performing female'?;

- I would never forgot true stories by victim's of child molestation. And at the same time, I remember the story of Ramsey's gardener. When he asked JB about her Dad, she starts crying very hard saying she's missing him so much, she wish he wouldn't travel so often, she wished he would stay with her longer. She genuinly LOVES him. And I believe he genuinely loves her back... the same way as he loved all his children from the prior marriage. And from what I know, these children loves him back, even today.

Now, this stinking Ransom Note!...I'm not going there:)...BUT, to make JDI theory possible, ALL THREE premises must be TRUE (it's very important - all 3!!!):

- John wrote Ransom Note AND
- John is child molester AND
- Patsy is innocent grieving bystander.

Today, I don't believe in above. Today, we have zero evidence in support of the above.

Sorry, MM....jmo
 
1 - John wrote Ransom Note AND
2 - John is child molester AND
3 - Patsy is innocent grieving bystander.

1.could be true....I don't trust any of the handwriting experts I've seen SO FAR testify in this case and I can see some similarities between his handwrt and the note

2.if she was molested,she was molested by one of the 3 and most likely the father

3.I don't believe she was just an innocent grieving bystander....she knew or at least suspected the truth....she was aggressive sometimes when facing tough questions (LE interview,LKL)....to some that points to guilt,to me it sounded something like "GMAB,you have no clue and i am furious that I cannot tell!"
 
1.could be true....I don't trust any of the handwriting experts I've seen SO FAR testify in this case and I can see some similarities between his handwrt and the note

2.if she was molested,she was molested by one of the 3 and most likely the father

3.I don't believe she was just an innocent grieving bystander....she knew or at least suspected the truth....she was aggressive sometimes when facing tough questions (LE interview,LKL)....to some that points to guilt,to me it sounded something like "GMAB,you have no clue and i am furious that I cannot tell!"

Dear madeleine, where are the evidences of the above??? Could be, would be, should be....'most likely', 'sounded something'...We have FACTS so far: Patsy was lier AND John was lier AND Burke was lier....who was molester??? who was one of the 3???...evidences please!

thank you!

P.S....to everyone, when asking yourself 'who's the child molester' please remember JB was manually penetrated, more than once, not with penis......and this is the FACT.
 
Dear madeleine, where are the evidences of the above??? Could be, would be, should be....'most likely', 'souneded something'...We have FACTS so far: Patsy was lier AND John was lier AND Burke was lier....who was molester??? who was one of the 3???...evidences please!

thank you!

that's the painful truth we keep coming back to....we can't prove which did what...yes all 3 were untruthful and that's why the cops should have pushed more during the interviews but we all know why that never happened and IMO it's too late now
 
that's the painful truth we keep coming back to....we can't prove which did what...yes all 3 were untruthful and that's why the cops should have pushed more during the interviews but we all know why that never happened and IMO it's too late now

....agree, even GJ who know more than public know, couldn't answer 'who did what'.....but they made indictment of John AND Patsy!!!!...Patsy and John....both!....therefore, I'm asking all of you, don't be blind!...:)

jmo
 
midwest mama,

I saved this thread until I had the time to give it the attention it deserves. I’ve now read and studied it enough to be able to say, “Well done.” You’ve put together a very logical (which I always appreciate), viable theory. I applaud your effort.

I have to say though that my main stumbling block to it is Patsy’s involvement. No need to go into the details, but I can’t see her as... well... a patsy. I still think she and John both had knowledge of what happened, and that they worked together to reconstruct the crime scene with the intent of throwing investigators off from what actually happened.

Many good posts on this, and I will continue to read this thread just in case I can be convinced otherwise. I'm not married to my theory.

But let me help you out with one of your points. You can easily create your own font at the following (or many other) sites:

http://www.myscriptfont.com/


http://www.yourfonts.com/


http://howto.wired.com/wiki/Create_Your_Own_Font


BTW, the RRN font was created by someone already. Here’s an example:

syvvk4.jpg
 
UKGuy,
Here goes: your questions are in italics:

"At the time of JonBenet's death was the technology available to scan written-text, and have it accurately digitised in another font? If so which software? i.e. can we establish the alleged fact?"
I wish I knew an exact indentification of an OCR software readily available to the public in 1995-1996. But I can attest to seeing a document put through that process with my own eyes very near that time, IIRC. A program used by a graphics designer, who produced catalogs, was on a friends computer. A hand-written report was scanned into the computer, and a typed report was created. It blew my mind at the time, since I had just begun using a computer myself near that time, and was barely familiar with word processing. I have no doubt after seeing that done, and having been a military wife myself for nearly 10 years during the '70's and seeing the inner workings of the bridges of an Aircraft Carrier and a Destroyer, and that was just in the areas civilians were allowed, that those computers were programmed for things we surely would have considered science fiction at the time.

"Again, as per above, being discounted as the Ransom Note author, does not render you innocent, it just means you never put pen to paper. The same person could still have asphyxiated JonBenet."
It is my opinion that the same person who wrote the ransom note is the same person who murdered JB. And my opinion is not dependent on those who either agree or disagree. I believe the person who wrote the RN had intended to create a scenario in which he could effectively dispose of the body and make it appear as if an intruder did kidnap and then eventually murder JB, and if that plan failed somehow, the purpose of the RN, while it was also meant to fool Patsy and the police, would then also contain the back-up plan of shifting blame onto Patsy.

"Presumably you discount BR's presence, during the 911 call, as well as JR instructing her to make the call?"
I accept that Burke was present during the 911 call. I would also like to point out that it was John who was tersely telling him "we are not talking to you". According to the accounts of many, John was and 'ice man' and it took a lot to rile him. Obviously, to be speaking like that to your distraught child during such an upsetting time, he might have been very agitated. Maybe at Patsy for making the call? There was no uninvolved witness to John telling Patsy to make the call. Those statements came later, after considerable time had passed during which careful scripting by the RST or John himself could have prevailed. And there was one account by Patsy, later on, that she made the decision to make the call on her own.

"Your theory assumes premeditation, in terms of the font digitisation etc. If this had been the case I would have expected JonBenet to have been dumped outdoors, with the Ransom Note left behind. Also the completely amateur cleanup and relocation of JonBenet to the wine-cellar along with incriminating forensic evidence, does not suggest premeditation, quite the opposite".
I am proposing that JR had been preparing for the possibility he was going to be exposed. While I think he had made the plans for the kidnapping scene to be executed as a means to dispose of JB, I am not sure if he had premeditated Christmas night as the day of the deed. Though he claimed responsibility for choosing that day for the tombstone so the whole world would remember her death. Oh, yes, hell hath no fury like a lover scorned.

But let's speculate that he was just hoping for some special Christmas time with JB, and when the vaginal activity started, it produced a reactionary scream, because of pain she might have been suffering due to the recent former discovered molestation. One of the experts suggested it was withing 72 hours of that night. A six year old. She might have been hurting quite badly. She screamed, the scream was subdued, but he knew the time had come and it resulted in the bash.

Granted, John being an amateur, the clean up was not that of a professional killer, but it was done convincingly enough to even the trained eye that a special light had to be used to determine the base of the fluid left on her thighs. And much of the additional evidence required forensic documentation, which was only found to be 'microscopic', or possibly contaminated. Some evidence clearly received more attention from the killer than other aspects, but those that remained without special attention have been no help in solving the crime, have they? So maybe he would have known a little bit about what to do, after all.

"Patsy Ramsey was involved in the Wine-Cellar staging she has forensic evidence linking her to the ligature, duct-tape, paint-tote, paintbrush etc."
There is forensic evidence suggesting the JACKET that Patsy was wearing when she arrived home from the Whites was in the area of the paint tote and connected to items found on JB. The fibers were described as being "consistent with"her jacket, though, so there might also have been something else responsible for those red (and other color fibers) found, i.e. a Santa Suit, or a scarf - similar to the one that was photographed on the counter of the kitchen? And while the Jacket could have been at the crime scene, it does not mean Patsy had to have been inside of it. Again, no witnesses to seeing her there - circumstantial evidence supported by the possibility of secondary transfer.

"If you think its JDI then there is evidence to directly implicate Patsy Ramsey, and if you think its PDI there is evidence to implicate John Ramsey."
I disagree with both of these statements, since it is entirely conceivable to me that JR acted fully without the involvement of Patsy, and if I had interpreted the evidence to believe Patsy killed JB without the help of John, as others have, then that would be my opinion. There are, by the way, those who do not think John was in any way involved - check out the poll.

"So it appears both parents colluded with each other to stage a homicide crime-scene with their own daughter as victim?"
Not to me.

"Why would either parent agree to assist the other, what have they to gain, given the possiblity of detection and conviction?"
I believe JR and the RST team worked on Patsy to corroborate the theory that an intruder committed the crime, after convincing her that without her compliance, John would be arrested. John needed this theory to keep himself from being arrested, and he preferred to have Patsy free of arrest as well, to continue his masterful charade as a powerful, respected pillar of society with a "normal" (his words over and over) family.

"So assuming both parents did collude then any RDI theory is a starter. So which one answers the most questions, e.g. BDI. This does not make it a smoking-gun since further evidence might emerge making JDI more probable."
Burke was/is a victimized participant, who was unjustly brought into this horror because he had some suspected disorders of his own, and might have been involved in sexual exploration with his sister - a rather common occurrence in childhood between children of their age. But both aspects combined have created a highly suspicious avenue of theory for some.
And in asking others to respect my theory, I offer to respect theirs.
:moo:

midwest mama,
There is evidence that you do not cite that suggests it could be JDI along the lines you propose.

I reckon your theory falls down over the font business. I know of no software manufactured in 1996 that would generate fonts, particularly personal handwriting fonts!

This was just after the release of Windows 95 and and Windows NT 4.0. There were Font Programs available to allow you to create and modify standard fonts. Since Windows came with a limited set. Similarly for Apple which used Adobe and Pagemaker back then, these used standard font sets.

So technologically I do not think there was software available to generate handwriting as a typographical Font. Scan it, yes, generate a PDF or Word document, yes, but not someones handwriting specifically as a distinct Font. I'm not certain this can be accomplished today, possibly?



.
 
<snipped>

Now, the 911 call. Even though I've seen it said a thousand times, when I came across it in a bumped posting of Chrishope's just a couple of days ago, it finally sunk in. It was the time of the call that convinced me Patsy was making the call in all honesty, thinking she had found a genuine ransom note and that JB had been kidnapped. <snipped>

The problem is the timeline Patsy gave in her various depositions isn't consistent with the time of the 911 being made and the time she states she arose. There is no way anyone could do all she said she did (getting up about 5:35 to 5:40, iirc, and based on her depo), fix her hair, makeup, put on clothing, meander around (sorry, I can't remember exactly what she said but iirc she stated she washed out some of JonBenet's clothing), then came down stairs and found the note, read or skimmed it (whichever you believe ... she said she didn't read all of it but her comments to the dispatcher made it seem she'd read at least a good portion of it), ran upstairs and checked JonBenet's room then yelled for John, went back downstairs with John while he reviewed things, and she accomplished all of this in less than 15-20 minutes or thereabouts. I just don't buy that. :what:
 
UK, I wasn't that into computers at the time to know if that was possible or not, however JR is said to be quite adept at this technology. Whether or not this was available at the time, and whether or not JR had the ability to write his own program, I do think MM may be onto something here. I don't think JR would have needed a computer to mimic his wife's handwriting. I think most people can mimic their spouses writing to some degree, I know I certainly can.
 
I can mimic my spouse's handwriting, but it takes me a lot longer to do so. I think someone said if you were to just copy it word for word it would take at least 20-30 min. Is that right?? Well, I would at least double if not triple the time if I was trying to carefully forge the letter. Not including practice letters. So, 40-90 minutes?
I don't know if my times are right.

Anyways, in regards to the create-Patsy's-font idea. Not only would that have to be planned out well ahead of time, it would leave a dangerous red flag on your computer for the investigators. JMO
 
I am married to my soulmate of 43 years and he wouldn't recognize my writing, nor me his, much less be able to try and copy it. The only thing we know is each others sigs on cards, but I would not be able to duplicate that. I don't pay that much attention to how it looks.
 
midwest mama,
There is evidence that you do not cite that suggests it could be JDI along the lines you propose.

I reckon your theory falls down over the font business. I know of no software manufactured in 1996 that would generate fonts, particularly personal handwriting fonts!

This was just after the release of Windows 95 and and Windows NT 4.0. There were Font Programs available to allow you to create and modify standard fonts. Since Windows came with a limited set. Similarly for Apple which used Adobe and Pagemaker back then, these used standard font sets.

So technologically I do not think there was software available to generate handwriting as a typographical Font. Scan it, yes, generate a PDF or Word document, yes, but not someones handwriting specifically as a distinct Font. I'm not certain this can be accomplished today, possibly?



.

I do wish I always had more tech savvy than I do. I know there is so much more capability today, but I am only 'speculating' on what John's ability at the time might have been as a pioneer in his business. It takes a very brilliant mind to be able to turn a basement/garage business into a billion dollar industry. And with his career military background, who can say what he knew at the time? I might not have made myself very clear about his technique, but what I think he might have been able to do is scan samples of her writing in, and then duplicate those characters into a matching font. I'm probably still not explaining it the way I visualize it - sorry.

My theory is based on what I believe to be possible. This I do know, a spouse who really wants to mimic their mate's handwriting will be able to do so very effectively if they work at it a bit. Just search the web a bit to see all the stories about claims against spouses for forging unauthorized documents. I will concede this, if JR did not create anything using software technology, I suspect he spent a bit of time trying his best to create a script that would have passed for Patsy's, paying special attention to the "q", which he surely knew would be a direct arrow towards her culpability.

By the way, would you mind posting back and elaborating on your sentence above, which I have bolded? TIA!!
 
The problem is the timeline Patsy gave in her various depositions isn't consistent with the time of the 911 being made and the time she states she arose. There is no way anyone could do all she said she did (getting up about 5:35 to 5:40, iirc, and based on her depo), fix her hair, makeup, put on clothing, meander around (sorry, I can't remember exactly what she said but iirc she stated she washed out some of JonBenet's clothing), then came down stairs and found the note, read or skimmed it (whichever you believe ... she said she didn't read all of it but her comments to the dispatcher made it seem she'd read at least a good portion of it), ran upstairs and checked JonBenet's room then yelled for John, went back downstairs with John while he reviewed things, and she accomplished all of this in less than 15-20 minutes or thereabouts. I just don't buy that. :what:

It would have been very difficult to do it all if she were starting from scratch.
But I'll post a copy here again of how I think that all happened:
The only thing I think Patsy did not account accurately is the fact that she did not awaken and completely "ready" herself for the trip, including dressing, fresh hair and makeup. I think Patsy laid down in another location of the house somewhere, exhausted from the previous day's activites and evening trip preparations, thinking she would just rest a few minutes, and instead awakened with a start just in time to refresh herself enough to start her day, which is when she found JR in the shower. Remember, she also appeared to the police without any visible signs of the type of wear and tear that certainly should have happpend while participating in JB's death during the night.

I'll expand a bit, and add that if she had awakened in the same clothes, not dirtied up, had slept like a rock (as JR himself said she did) for about 5-1/2 hours or so, she didn't get too messed up. She could have spent 10 minutes or so primping a bit, brushing teeth, and headed down those stairs. Ask any mother who's fallen asleep on the couch while trying to catch a few minutes of late night TV (before trudging off to bed), after being up late with chores, kids, etc, then had to pop awake to get kids up and going for school. Sometimes even 10 minutes to refresh before having to herd them into the car is a push. And Patsy had the beauty routine down pat, knowing how to respond to time constraints both in her own pageant career and in working with JB for curtain calls, etc.
 
I can mimic my spouse's handwriting, but it takes me a lot longer to do so. I think someone said if you were to just copy it word for word it would take at least 20-30 min. Is that right?? Well, I would at least double if not triple the time if I was trying to carefully forge the letter. Not including practice letters. So, 40-90 minutes?
I don't know if my times are right.

Anyways, in regards to the create-Patsy's-font idea. Not only would that have to be planned out well ahead of time, it would leave a dangerous red flag on your computer for the investigators. JMO

Agree that it would have been planned out ahead of time. I think JR was getting worried that JB was finally going to pull the plug, and I suspect he had begun to think of all sorts of ways he might have to put a stop to everything.
I hate to think he was premeditating anything, but I just think the reports of how he responded to losing Beth, plus her photo collage in his bathroom, the reports from the housekeeper about his frightening, seething temper, his physical detachment (time spent away) from his young family - the guy had popped part of his cork.

As far as leaving a red flag on his computer, I doubt he would have used any equipment in his home with all that would have been accessible to him at work. He was the one with extreme skills, remember? Wiping a hard drive - piece of cake, or even exchanging a hard drive in a piece of equipment. And, what's to say he might not have even tossed the whole darn computer? What would it have cost him - peanuts!
 
I am married to my soulmate of 43 years and he wouldn't recognize my writing, nor me his, much less be able to try and copy it. The only thing we know is each others sigs on cards, but I would not be able to duplicate that. I don't pay that much attention to how it looks.

You are a blessed couple. It's wonderful that you are so bonded. I'd have to work at forging my husband's sig also, but probably could if I worked at it a while and wanted to. Printing, which is the style of the RN, would be easier.

Please remember how well-formed Patsy's natural script was. She had handwriting that I think might have been easier to duplicate or forge than some others.
 
I do wish I always had more tech savvy than I do. I know there is so much more capability today, but I am only 'speculating' on what John's ability at the time might have been as a pioneer in his business. It takes a very brilliant mind to be able to turn a basement/garage business into a billion dollar industry. And with his career military background, who can say what he knew at the time? I might not have made myself very clear about his technique, but what I think he might have been able to do is scan samples of her writing in, and then duplicate those characters into a matching font. I'm probably still not explaining it the way I visualize it - sorry.

My theory is based on what I believe to be possible. This I do know, a spouse who really wants to mimic their mate's handwriting will be able to do so very effectively if they work at it a bit. Just search the web a bit to see all the stories about claims against spouses for forging unauthorized documents. I will concede this, if JR did not create anything using software technology, I suspect he spent a bit of time trying his best to create a script that would have passed for Patsy's, paying special attention to the "q", which he surely knew would be a direct arrow towards her culpability.

By the way, would you mind posting back and elaborating on your sentence above, which I have bolded? TIA!!

midwest mama,
I understand what you are suggesting regarding the handwriting font. Currenty today Google cannot discriminate between some texts, i.e. 18th , 19th Century features e.g. leffon lesson, misspelt words etc. So they get us via their Captcha to correct it. Similarly for 20th Century texts Google cannot recognize most written text and even some printed text, so I reckon generating a personal font from scanned exemplars cannot be done?

There is evidence that you do not cite that suggests it could be JDI along the lines you propose.
Yes most JDI conspiracy theories miss the size-12's. Patsy never redressed JonBenet in that underwear, otherwise she would never have told the investigators she placed the size-12's into her underwear drawer, when there was none there.

It was either John or Burke who redressed JonBenet. Given JR's shirt fibers on JonBenet's groin and underwear, it was likely him.

When Patsy was to be interviewed regarding the size-12's, which she knew about via the NI tabloid, JR never warned her in advance that the size-12's had been removed from the house, he allowed her to sink!

Once the R's read a transcript of her interview and realized Patsy's mistake they later found the remaining size-12's in a packing crate. So avoiding the intruder knowing where to find the size-12's and redress JonBenet, prior to wrapping her in a blanket and kidnapping her.

.
 
The note was not written on a computer, it was written by hand on a piece of paper torn from Patsy's note pad with a Sharpie pen found in a pen cup and whose ink tested a positive match to the note.

Patsy wrote the note.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
57
Guests online
2,500
Total visitors
2,557

Forum statistics

Threads
600,826
Messages
18,114,151
Members
230,990
Latest member
DeeKay
Back
Top