JDI - A Possible Prosecution?

[midwest mama]

Statement by JR:
"The investigators were retained by our attorneys, and they stated to me that the principal purpose of those investigators was to prepare a defense in the case that the police might bring a charge against me."

Really? Even then! And they are probably furiously at work again, harder than before, given the shocking and rippling news that broke a week ago. And I think well they should be.

Starting this thread is a result of my recent final conviction that John Ramsey murdered his daughter, and should face charges of Felony Murder, at the very minimum. However, given the information I have considered which has been disclosed on this case, I feel a charge of Murder might be possible.

But, let's get started with why I suspect he alone is responsible for JB's death. Because there are more reasons than would be proper to put into one opening post, I will capsulize and say that the only way all of the available evidence we have seen fits, is to believe that JR had been previously molesting his daughter, and had become aware that Patsy might have become suspicious of his behaviors. I think he also had begun to realize that JB might not be willing to continue to participate in sharing their secret. Achieving a tryst with her the night before the trip might have been an attempt to alleviate all fears.

Until recently, there were two stumbling blocks for me in seeing JR as a lone perpetrator against JB.
1. That Patsy was most likely the writer of the Ransom Note, and
2. That Patsy made the 911 call because they had decided not to dispose of her body outside the home (which could have been for several reasons) so they could establish reasons for why she would eventually be found dead. The kidnapper would have to have killed JB so she would eventually come back to the R's dead, and they could have her body for a 'proper burial'.

There are no conclusive, scientifically valid ways to determine the author of an unsigned scripted document without the writer taking ownership. Though there were intelligent decisions in conclusion that Patsy could not be eliminated as the note author, there were also valid statements to the
contrary.

The break that John got in promoting his innocence was by being eliminated as author of the note - by his own hired "experts", even though there were a few others who did not agree. I wonder what some futher analysis would show if he was required to present more extensive exemplars than the meager ones which were accepted, in comparison to so many presented by Patsy and others.

We suspect the note was written in a manner to disguise the author. Some have even suggested that the trauma of the incident produced a less than perfect "Patsy" script, or that she wrote it with her left hand. But what if the note was simply written by someone who had not totally perfected the "Patsy" script?

We know that John had a full military career focused on computer technology, and then took enough skills with him into a civilian life to build a lucrative business based on computer technology which included software production. With his complete knowledge of computer technology,
is it impossible to think that he could have created a "Patsy" font simply by using examples of her own handwriting from within their home?

Some of the missing pages from Patsy's notepad might have had enough examples of notes on them to be scanned into a computer. Otherwise, there should have been other documents in the home that could have been used. The scanned script could have been transformed into font using software quite available at the time, and then rewritten into a new software application by John. As a career military officer in this field, having progressed into connections with Lockheed Martin, do you doubt his skills?

The new software could have produced a document to be hand copied onto the notepad pages. The discrepancies in the script between what would have positively been identified as Patsy's handwriting might have been the result of some of John's own scripting methods, which some, including myself, think possible. It would have been impossible for John to perfectly copy the "Patsy font" without a good amount of practice ahead of time, but since he was known to be detail oriented, he would have done a respectable job. Especially using a felt tip pen, which always leaves a lesser technique quality. A note here: The matching pen used to write it was placed back into the holder. John was the neat freak, not Patsy. Picking up and replacing would have been second nature to him, not Patsy.

Now, the 911 call. Even though I've seen it said a thousand times, when I came across it in a bumped posting of Chrishope's just a couple of days ago, it finally sunk in. It was the time of the call that convinced me Patsy was making the call in all honesty, thinking she had found a genuine ransom note and that JB had been kidnapped. The call was made at the time that fit the previous schedule that the R's would have had to keep in order to make their morning flight. JR had awakened and was showering when Patsy came down to put on coffee before having to wake the kids up to get going. I suspect that the recounting of her actions, and the time frame to Officer French is only slightly awry from actuality. The only thing I think Patsy did not account accurately is the fact that she did not awaken and completely "ready" herself for the trip, including dressing, fresh hair and makeup. I think Patsy laid down in another location of the house somewhere, exhausted from the previous day's activites and evening trip preparations, thinking she would just rest a few minutes, and instead awakened with a start just in time to refresh herself enough to start her day, which is when she found JR in the shower. Remember, she also appeared to the police without any visible signs of the type of wear and tear that certainly should have happpend while participating in JB's death during the night.

If Patsy made the call as part of the kidnap scenario staging, to establish a reason to assure JB's death, wasn't the call was made too early? Why not wait to call the police and invite them, along with all their friends in to contaminate the scene after the time for the call from the kidnappers came and went without being received. All they had to do was make preparations to get the cash, a small sum in small bills, (which JR would have easily done as it probably could have been ready cash at their local bank) having a reason to leave the house (probably with JB's body in the trunk). JR driving away in the neighborhood, even if he was by himself (neighbors might have thought he was going to the plane early to help ready for the flight) would not have looked suspicious to anyone. JR could have disposed of the body and returned from the bank with the money, and they may also have had time at the house for getting Burke from the home and safely sequestered away with a trustworthy friend.

Of course, there also would have had to be a simple call to the pilot and the older children to tell them they would be delayed (for whatever reason), which would have bought them the time they needed to get past the 10am deadline. The older children might have been assured they should proceed on to Minneapolis, where they eventually catch up to them. No suspicions that way.

As soon as the 10 am deadline passed, the call to the police could have been made, and on with the show. Act I: 10 am - Police are called notifying of a kidnapping (body really is out of house). Police are shown the note, told the call did not come in, and now there is reason to think something went wrong. The money is waiting, (which will not have to be used), a search is initiated, friends are called in to contaminate the crime scene, er..excuse me, to console the R's, and they notify the pilot and kids to circumvent their flights at whichever airport is necessary and bring them to Boulder. Act II: The day is haywire, JB's body is found, totally contaminated by surrounding debris, and now the body will be theirs for a "proper burial". For a short time, they will be spared immediate pressure from the police, since they are victims, and can be safely and sanely escorted from the house into the company of caring friends. Finale: JR and PR have succeeded in covering up the brutal, heinous crime committed against their daughter, thinking they have fooled the world into believing she was kidnapped and killed by intruders, who got in through a break in a basement window.

But here's the thing - the call went in to 911 at 6 am. Because Patsy had found the note, panicked and without reading through it very carefully, and after running to check JB's room and yell for John, went right to a phone and called police, probably just as JR was coming into her vacinity with Burke tailing right behind him, since Dad had gone to his room and checked on him, and he had previously heard the distressed voice of his mother. JR's rice was cooked right then and there.

Yes, Patsy said John told her to call the police. She said that calmly in interviews held at a later date after John had plenty of time to work on her and convince her that they would both be incriminated if she didn't make it look like he wanted the police called, which would give him protection. I'm sure he assured her over and over again he would take total care of protecting the entire family, but could only do so if they worked together as a team to portray their innocence. In another later interview, she recanted and said she was the one who had decided to call 911. Possibly just sick and tired of trying to keep up the lie, because she had suspected JR all along, but it is possible she just slipped up, and truth came out.

I realize most of this is theory, and maybe should be in the Theory Thread. But what I would invite you to do now, in this thread, is consider the aspects and think about how they might apply in order to bring charges against JR. And the chance arrow could find the target. If we work together to look for the "reasonable doubt" as a jury would be instructed, then maybe once and for all we can let this case rest and accept whatever outcome prevails.

Now that Kolar stated publicly, in response to my question on Tricia's show on Monday, that he agrees that Garnett must not have the evidence needed to prosecute, I could once and for all dismiss myself from the hold of injustice in this case, if you all will help me out either in thinking JR murdered his daughter, but will probably get away with it, or I should really adjust my theory (again) to look at a possibility that leaves no option for prosecution.

Good, bad, or ugly, let's discuss!!

PS: To those other posters who have long shared my opinion and have posted accordingly, thank you - otherwise I might still be going round in circles trying to make sense of it all to myself.

 

[wengr]

Very interesting stuff MM.
Sadly imo, a conviction in this case is all but impossible. In the event that you are spot on with this theory, so much of the prior work of detectives and experts immediately defaults to the reasonable doubt category.
The Thomas book could be defense exhibit A.

 

[LinasK]

I have always thought JDI and that Patsy helped with the coverup.

 

[Whaleshark]

Why is John going to purposely disguise his handwriting to look like Patsy's, for her to find the ransom note herself? Or even have her see it eventually at all?

if it is to say that he means for it to look like someone else did it to set her up, he said he didn't think the handwriting was purposely written like hers for that reason. If he did it to set her up himself, and knows she is going to find or see the note, but she knows she didn't write it, what is the purpose to have the handwriting to purposely, overtly look like hers then?

 

[SyraKelly]

IMO-There is also a lot of reasonable doubt when it comes to Pasty's fibers all over the crime scene.John could throw Pasty under the bus and walk!

 

[OpenMind4U]

Dear MM,

You have such an excellent writing skills. I simply envy you!!!

Your theory is not new (unfortunately or fortunately) and took me not by surprize. Exect the same theory couple peoples on this forum intensively pushed for long time. One of them even have the separate web page dedicated to solving JBR mystery. It's matter of opinion, of course.

And I'll be the last person to argue which RDI theory is better because a lot of critical elements are possible. Probable? Not all of them.

One of the 'probable' element is Ransom Note. And I'll not going to start RN discussion again. I'll simply state that RN is the best evidence in JBR mystery because it gives us the proof WHO wrote it, who was the participant. And this proof is not based on the handwriting only! So, for me, the probability of Patsy writing RN is very-very high. Probability of John writing RN is zero.

Today, I cannot join your 'compain' for JB Justice based on JDI theory. Maybe later, when some 'hidden' elements could be exposed by people who can talk now (thanks for GJ leak!), I'll join you. But not today! I want justice as much as you and thousands others do. And I want John Ramsey prosecution but NOT based on JDI.

I don't want this justice to be lynch-mob type. I want this justice to be fair and truthfull, based on hard evidences and facts so our grand-grand-grand children would never accused us of being near-minded society.

It's always a pleasure talking to you. :seeya:

 

[UKGuy]

Statement by JR:
"The investigators were retained by our attorneys, and they stated to me that the principal purpose of those investigators was to prepare a defense in the case that the police might bring a charge against me."

Really? Even then! And they are probably furiously at work again, harder than before, given the shocking and rippling news that broke a week ago. And I think well they should be.

Starting this thread is a result of my recent final conviction that John Ramsey murdered his daughter, and should face charges of Felony Murder, at the very minimum. However, given the information I have considered which has been disclosed on this case, I feel a charge of Murder might be possible.

But, let's get started with why I suspect he alone is responsible for JB's death. Because there are more reasons than would be proper to put into one opening post, I will capsulize and say that the only way all of the available evidence we have seen fits, is to believe that JR had been previously molesting his daughter, and had become aware that Patsy might have become suspicious of his behaviors. I think he also had begun to realize that JB might not be willing to continue to participate in sharing their secret. Achieving a tryst with her the night before the trip might have been an attempt to alleviate all fears.

Until recently, there were two stumbling blocks for me in seeing JR as a lone perpetrator against JB.
1. That Patsy was most likely the writer of the Ransom Note, and
2. That Patsy made the 911 call because they had decided not to dispose of her body outside the home (which could have been for several reasons) so they could establish reasons for why she would eventually be found dead. The kidnapper would have to have killed JB so she would eventually come back to the R's dead, and they could have her body for a 'proper burial'.

There are no conclusive, scientifically valid ways to determine the author of an unsigned scripted document without the writer taking ownership. Though there were intelligent decisions in conclusion that Patsy could not be eliminated as the note author, there were also valid statements to the
contrary.

The break that John got in promoting his innocence was by being eliminated as author of the note - by his own hired "experts", even though there were a few others who did not agree. I wonder what some futher analysis would show if he was required to present more extensive exemplars than the meager ones which were accepted, in comparison to so many presented by Patsy and others.

We suspect the note was written in a manner to disguise the author. Some have even suggested that the trauma of the incident produced a less than perfect "Patsy" script, or that she wrote it with her left hand. But what if the note was simply written by someone who had not totally perfected the "Patsy" script?

We know that John had a full military career focused on computer technology, and then took enough skills with him into a civilian life to build a lucrative business based on computer technology which included software production. With his complete knowledge of computer technology,
is it impossible to think that he could have created a "Patsy" font simply by using examples of her own handwriting from within their home?

Some of the missing pages from Patsy's notepad might have had enough examples of notes on them to be scanned into a computer. Otherwise, there should have been other documents in the home that could have been used. The scanned script could have been transformed into font using software quite available at the time, and then rewritten into a new software application by John. As a career military officer in this field, having progressed into connections with Lockheed Martin, do you doubt his skills?

The new software could have produced a document to be hand copied onto the notepad pages. The discrepancies in the script between what would have positively been identified as Patsy's handwriting might have been the result of some of John's own scripting methods, which some, including myself, think possible. It would have been impossible for John to perfectly copy the "Patsy font" without a good amount of practice ahead of time, but since he was known to be detail oriented, he would have done a respectable job. Especially using a felt tip pen, which always leaves a lesser technique quality. A note here: The matching pen used to write it was placed back into the holder. John was the neat freak, not Patsy. Picking up and replacing would have been second nature to him, not Patsy.

Now, the 911 call. Even though I've seen it said a thousand times, when I came across it in a bumped posting of Chrishope's just a couple of days ago, it finally sunk in. It was the time of the call that convinced me Patsy was making the call in all honesty, thinking she had found a genuine ransom note and that JB had been kidnapped. The call was made at the time that fit the previous schedule that the R's would have had to keep in order to make their morning flight. JR had awakened and was showering when Patsy came down to put on coffee before having to wake the kids up to get going. I suspect that the recounting of her actions, and the time frame to Officer French is only slightly awry from actuality. The only thing I think Patsy did not account accurately is the fact that she did not awaken and completely "ready" herself for the trip, including dressing, fresh hair and makeup. I think Patsy laid down in another location of the house somewhere, exhausted from the previous day's activites and evening trip preparations, thinking she would just rest a few minutes, and instead awakened with a start just in time to refresh herself enough to start her day, which is when she found JR in the shower. Remember, she also appeared to the police without any visible signs of the type of wear and tear that certainly should have happpend while participating in JB's death during the night.

If Patsy made the call as part of the kidnap scenario staging, to establish a reason to assure JB's death, wasn't the call was made too early? Why not wait to call the police and invite them, along with all their friends in to contaminate the scene after the time for the call from the kidnappers came and went without being received. All they had to do was make preparations to get the cash, a small sum in small bills, (which JR would have easily done as it probably could have been ready cash at their local bank) having a reason to leave the house (probably with JB's body in the trunk). JR driving away in the neighborhood, even if he was by himself (neighbors might have thought he was going to the plane early to help ready for the flight) would not have looked suspicious to anyone. JR could have disposed of the body and returned from the bank with the money, and they may also have had time at the house for getting Burke from the home and safely sequestered away with a trustworthy friend.

Of course, there also would have had to be a simple call to the pilot and the older children to tell them they would be delayed (for whatever reason), which would have bought them the time they needed to get past the 10am deadline. The older children might have been assured they should proceed on to Minneapolis, where they eventually catch up to them. No suspicions that way.

As soon as the 10 am deadline passed, the call to the police could have been made, and on with the show. Act I: 10 am - Police are called notifying of a kidnapping (body really is out of house). Police are shown the note, told the call did not come in, and now there is reason to think something went wrong. The money is waiting, (which will not have to be used), a search is initiated, friends are called in to contaminate the crime scene, er..excuse me, to console the R's, and they notify the pilot and kids to circumvent their flights at whichever airport is necessary and bring them to Boulder. Act II: The day is haywire, JB's body is found, totally contaminated by surrounding debris, and now the body will be theirs for a "proper burial". For a short time, they will be spared immediate pressure from the police, since they are victims, and can be safely and sanely escorted from the house into the company of caring friends. Finale: JR and PR have succeeded in covering up the brutal, heinous crime committed against their daughter, thinking they have fooled the world into believing she was kidnapped and killed by intruders, who got in through a break in a basement window.

But here's the thing - the call went in to 911 at 6 am. Because Patsy had found the note, panicked and without reading through it very carefully, and after running to check JB's room and yell for John, went right to a phone and called police, probably just as JR was coming into her vacinity with Burke tailing right behind him, since Dad had gone to his room and checked on him, and he had previously heard the distressed voice of his mother. JR's rice was cooked right then and there.

Yes, Patsy said John told her to call the police. She said that calmly in interviews held at a later date after John had plenty of time to work on her and convince her that they would both be incriminated if she didn't make it look like he wanted the police called, which would give him protection. I'm sure he assured her over and over again he would take total care of protecting the entire family, but could only do so if they worked together as a team to portray their innocence. In another later interview, she recanted and said she was the one who had decided to call 911. Possibly just sick and tired of trying to keep up the lie, because she had suspected JR all along, but it is possible she just slipped up, and truth came out.

I realize most of this is theory, and maybe should be in the Theory Thread. But what I would invite you to do now, in this thread, is consider the aspects and think about how they might apply in order to bring charges against JR. And the chance arrow could find the target. If we work together to look for the "reasonable doubt" as a jury would be instructed, then maybe once and for all we can let this case rest and accept whatever outcome prevails.

Now that Kolar stated publicly, in response to my question on Tricia's show on Monday, that he agrees that Garnett must not have the evidence needed to prosecute, I could once and for all dismiss myself from the hold of injustice in this case, if you all will help me out either in thinking JR murdered his daughter, but will probably get away with it, or I should really adjust my theory (again) to look at a possibility that leaves no option for prosecution.

Good, bad, or ugly, let's discuss!!

PS: To those other posters who have long shared my opinion and have posted accordingly, thank you - otherwise I might still be going round in circles trying to make sense of it all to myself.

midwest mama,

Until recently, there were two stumbling blocks for me in seeing JR as a lone perpetrator against JB.
1. That Patsy was most likely the writer of the Ransom Note, and
2. That Patsy made the 911 call because they had decided not to dispose of her body outside the home (which could have been for several reasons) so they could establish reasons for why she would eventually be found dead. The kidnapper would have to have killed JB so she would eventually come back to the R's dead, and they could have her body for a 'proper burial'.

If you assume some RDI variant, then the Ransom Note is not genuine, i.e. its part of a staged crime-scene. Acquiring knowledge about the Ransom Note cannot demonstrate who killed JonBenet, since you cite an absence of any scientific method to do so.

At the time of JonBenet's death was the technology available to scan written-text, and have it accurately digitised in another font? If so which software? i.e. can we establish the alleged fact?

The break that John got in promoting his innocence was by being eliminated as author of the note

Again, as per above, being discounted as the Ransom Note author, does not render you innocent, it just means you never put pen to paper. The same person could still have asphyxiated JonBenet.

It was the time of the call that convinced me Patsy was making the call in all honesty

Presumably you discount BR's presence, during the 911 call, as well as JR instructing her to make the call?

Your theory assumes premeditation, in terms of the font digitisation etc. If this had been the case I would have expected JonBenet to have been dumped outdoors, with the Ransom Note left behind. Also the completely amateur cleanup and relocation of JonBenet to the wine-cellar along with incriminating forensic evidence, does not suggest premeditation, quite the opposite.

Patsy Ramsey was involved in the Wine-Cellar staging she has forensic evidence linking her to the ligature, duct-tape, paint-tote, paintbrush etc.

If you think its JDI then there is evidence to directly implicate Patsy Ramsey, and if you think its PDI there is evidence to implicate John Ramsey.

So it appears both parents colluded with each other to stage a homicide crime-scene with their own daughter as victim?

Why would either parent agree to assist the other, what have they to gain, given the possiblity of detection and conviction?

So assuming both parents did collude then any RDI theory is a starter. So which one answers the most questions, e.g. BDI. This does not make it a smoking-gun since further evidence might emerge making JDI more probable.


.

 

[Nom de plume]

Sorry MM, I can't say I agree with you on this one, but thank you for giving us another possibility.

In order for your theory to work, JR would have had to plan this murder for quite some time in advance. He'd have to have time to write and test the program, and personally I can't see any reason for him to set PR up. Seems to me that he would only be pointing LE's attention back on the family, himself included.

Now it does make a lot of sense to me for them to have waited until after the 10 am deadline to call the police. Perhaps that was the original plan and PR panicked at the last minute forcing JR to later resort to plan B. Maybe that's where some of the "cold" attitude he had towards her came from. She'd messed up the plan and now he had to figure out how to get them out of the mess they were in.

Patsy's own behavior gives away her involvement IMO. Why would she be peaking at LE if she were innocent? Why make all the contradictory statements? Why did it take 5 tries to pass a LDT? Plus what about her jacket fibers in the knot of the garotte and on the paint tote? They had to get there somehow. And we can't forget, although a couple here would like us to, that 5 experts could not rule her out for the RN, with Don Foster finally concluding that she was the author.

I really believe that JR was molesting JB on an ongoing basis. That was the last night for quite some time that he would have the opportunity. I think he was a little too rough with her and she screamed. Either he, or IMO more likely PR, hit her on the head to shut her up, and the rest is history. I will always believe that they were in on this together, and covered for the other only to save their own *advertiser censored**. No "Patsy Pass" from me....IMO she was guilty as sin, just like John.

Edited to add: I do believe it was murder, but not that it was planned for an extended period of time.

 

[SyraKelly]

I'm not sure if my post above was clear or not,but I meant John could use all the fiber evidence of Pasty's to create reasonable doubt at his trial and throw her under the bus.
Not that there is reasonable doubt as to how it got there!

I also think Garnett will never take this to court,I wish people like FW would step forward and tell us what he saw that morning!

 

[madeleine]

hi mm,
I know I posted this before and the author (S.Singular) is an IDI BUT this part totally makes sense to me and it fits the JDI theory perfectly!

I'm suggesting that the Ramseys loved their child deeply, despite what happened to her. To get rid of her on a cold night in December, by tossing her in a ditch or something of this sort, would have been a very difficult thing for a parent to do. I'm also suggesting, more significantly, that both parents did not participate in this cover-up. Only one. And the cover-up primarily intended to fool not the cops but the other parent. So it had to look credible while accomplishing other things: keeping the child in the house, even though she was dead, and making it look as if someone who knew their family and hated the father had come in and done all this (remember John's comment after finding the body re inside job?)to JonBenet. Also, one parent could not easily have left the house that night with the body. Something had to be done immediately that would occur in the home and be believable. According to John Douglas, the ex-FBI profiler who examined the Ramseys briefly after the murder and concluded they were not child killers, only one parent knew that John Ramsey had recently received a $118,000 bonus and that parent was the father. I believe that a husband's inability to confront his wife at a critical moment because of his desire to protect her feelings played an important role in this case. It is possible to be afraid of the cops, but terrified of your wife.


my comment in red

 

[madeleine]

and remember why they brought in J.Douglas?
The Ramsey lawyers wanted to know what he thinks about JR (NOT PR),whether he is capable of such a crime or not.
this is huge IMO but people are forgetting about it

 

[midwest mama]

Why is John going to purposely disguise his handwriting to look like Patsy's, for her to find the ransom note herself? Or even have her see it eventually at all?

if it is to say that he means for it to look like someone else did it to set her up, he said he didn't think the handwriting was purposely written like hers for that reason. If he did it to set her up himself, and knows she is going to find or see the note, but she knows she didn't write it, what is the purpose to have the handwriting to purposely, overtly look like hers then?

To achieve the exact end result it has. He would have done it to put all suspicion on her, to eventually have her take the fall. He knew Patsy would always claim to have never written the note, because she didn't. He knew that she would present exemplar after exemplar (which he did not) in an attempt to finally dispel the allegations against her. Do you think that if Patsy was worried her handwriting would be accurately detected as the author of the RN, which would could lead to her conviction, she would have produced as many samples as she did? Would you have? Or might you, knowing you did not write the note, keep making attempts to demonstrate how your writing does NOT match up to the note?

The reports of their relationship was that they were "distant". It is my feeling that Patsy's cancer bout was the icing on his already disturbed mind after losing Elizabeth. With 2 small children in the picture as well, I think JR just swirled deeper into his hidden ego than we could even imagine, and with his penchant for young beauty queen type females, his path with Patsy was crumbling. He is a smart man, and he would have considered the "percentages", (his trait) to learn that Patsy's survival rate was slim, even with the spiritual cure she claimed for some years.

I have no doubt that JR was capable of completely heinous and evil acts against anyone who eroded his master plan for his life. He demonstrated this gently by detaching from many trusted and long time friends after JB's death. It wasn't just one or two people, it was each person who could chip away at his plan to maintain innocence.
I think that in Patsy, who could never again measure up to his need for her to fulfill his "beauty queen" requirement of a partner, he had come to perceive her importance as a mother to his children and the token representation of a wife for his public image, but under she fueled a seething loathing for the fact that he was "stuck" with someone who had no personal, pleasurable benefits for him.

Making Patsy his "patsy" was the perfect solution to his problem. Once she would have been arrested, along with him, he was the one in a position not only to become a source of public empathy, as he succeeded, behind the scenes, through his powerful connections, in shifting the entire blame over on her, but he could have pinned on a hero badge for being at the side of his wife as she met her Waterloo. Can you picture it? Oh, the book he could have written that would have sold a gazillion copies. Oh the perfect public life he would have been able to live for the rest of his days.

Unless you have lived with or are familiar with a true Narcissist, you may never understand the ability these people have to construct their own plan, and the lengths they will go to for achievement of it. If there are any posters out there who have professional experience they can share about Narcissism, I hope they will chime in on this.

Again, apologies to all with my always "wordy" responses. All :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

IMO-There is also a lot of reasonable doubt when it comes to Pasty's fibers all over the crime scene.John could throw Pasty under the bus and walk!

Agreed. That's been his intent all along.

It would take a true miracle in the guise of a prosecutor to find the one trigger that would trip his evil plan. We'd all have to lease:like crazy!

 

[Whaleshark]

To achieve the exact end result it has. He would have done it to put all suspicion on her, to eventually have her take the fall. He knew Patsy would always claim to have never written the note, because she didn't. He knew that she would present exemplar after exemplar (which he did not) in an attempt to finally dispel the allegations against her. Do you think that if Patsy was worried her handwriting would be accurately detected as the author of the RN, which would could lead to her conviction, she would have produced as many samples as she did? Would you have? Or might you, knowing you did not write the note, keep making attempts to demonstrate how your writing does NOT match up to the note?

The reports of their relationship was that they were "distant". It is my feeling that Patsy's cancer bout was the icing on his already disturbed mind after losing Elizabeth. With 2 small children in the picture as well, I think JR just swirled deeper into his hidden ego than we could even imagine, and with his penchant for young beauty queen type females, his path with Patsy was crumbling. He is a smart man, and he would have considered the "percentages", (his trait) to learn that Patsy's survival rate was slim, even with the spiritual cure she claimed for some years.

I have no doubt that JR was capable of completely heinous and evil acts against anyone who eroded his master plan for his life. He demonstrated this gently by detaching from many trusted and long time friends after JB's death. It wasn't just one or two people, it was each person who could chip away at his plan to maintain innocence.
I think that in Patsy, who could never again measure up to his need for her to fulfill his "beauty queen" requirement of a partner, he had come to perceive her importance as a mother to his children and the token representation of a wife for his public image, but under she fueled a seething loathing for the fact that he was "stuck" with someone who had no personal, pleasurable benefits for him.

Making Patsy his "patsy" was the perfect solution to his problem. Once she would have been arrested, along with him, he was the one in a position not only to become a source of public empathy, as he succeeded, behind the scenes, through his powerful connections, in shifting the entire blame over on her, but he could have pinned on a hero badge for being at the side of his wife as she met her Waterloo. Can you picture it? Oh, the book he could have written that would have sold a gazillion copies. Oh the perfect public life he would have been able to live for the rest of his days.

Unless you have lived with or are familiar with a true Narcissist, you may never understand the ability these people have to construct their own plan, and the lengths they will go to for achievement of it. If there are any posters out there who have professional experience they can share about Narcissism, I hope they will chime in on this.

Again, apologies to all with my always "wordy" responses. All :moo:

So, like DocG, you are presuming Patsy is not going to recognize her own handwriting then.... That he expects the police to recognize it as Patsy's, but not Patsy herself.... But if she does, she should not suspect that it was someone trying to set her up either, because John even said he didn't believe that.. So who is left for her to suspect of writing it in her handwriting style then?

We have to assume she is completely oblivious in order for this scenario to be viable, yes.... Completely, of course.

 

[Nom de plume]

MM
Do you think he planned to kill JB in order to rid himself of PR? Or did the abuse get out of hand and he killed JB, then seeing a way to frame PR and get rid of her?

How do you now explain the fiber evidence from PR? Did JR intentionally plant it to frame her?

IIRC you were somewhat suspicious of BRs involvement. Do you still think this or have you ruled him out?

How do you explain PR's "guilty" behavior?

TIA for the concise answers I know you will have! I know you've already figured out these "loose ends". I'm really interested in how you view these other things.

I could see JR being able to mimic PR's handwriting just because they were married, but I can't get to the computer program thing. I think he would have been worried about leaving evidence on the computer (being the expert that he is), plus I don't think he would have needed to go to such extremes to mimic her handwriting. But that's JMO. I think you're right about JR being a narcissist of the highest order.

 

[midwest mama]

Sorry MM, I can't say I agree with you on this one, but thank you for giving us another possibility.

In order for your theory to work, JR would have had to plan this murder for quite some time in advance. He'd have to have time to write and test the program, and personally I can't see any reason for him to set PR up. Seems to me that he would only be pointing LE's attention back on the family, himself included.

Now it does make a lot of sense to me for them to have waited until after the 10 am deadline to call the police. Perhaps that was the original plan and PR panicked at the last minute forcing JR to later resort to plan B. Maybe that's where some of the "cold" attitude he had towards her came from. She'd messed up the plan and now he had to figure out how to get them out of the mess they were in.

Patsy's own behavior gives away her involvement IMO. Why would she be peaking at LE if she were innocent? Why make all the contradictory statements? Why did it take 5 tries to pass a LDT? Plus what about her jacket fibers in the knot of the garotte and on the paint tote? They had to get there somehow. And we can't forget, although a couple here would like us to, that 5 experts could not rule her out for the RN, with Don Foster finally concluding that she was the author.

I really believe that JR was molesting JB on an ongoing basis. That was the last night for quite some time that he would have the opportunity. I think he was a little too rough with her and she screamed. Either he, or IMO more likely PR, hit her on the head to shut her up, and the rest is history. I will always believe that they were in on this together, and covered for the other only to save their own *advertiser censored**. No "Patsy Pass" from me....IMO she was guilty as sin, just like John.

Edited to add: I do believe it was murder, but not that it was planned for an extended period of time.

I understand all your points completely. That is why I now consider JR was putting his ducks in a row all along. I think JB had been pulling away from him, and was threatening to tell Patsy (which I think she did - just prior to the Christmas holiday). I think JR thought he was keeping JB placated (perhaps promising her a special visit from Santa after Christmas with a special new gift - the Barbie doll?). But I think he was also smart enough to know if she gave him up, he'd have to do what he did. The scream was the key. He wasn't expecting it to happen that night, but his reaction put all his fears, and preparations, into play.

In court, the jacket fibers would be explained as secondary transference, accepted as such by many. Otherwise, would it be a challenge to present the option of "planted evidence"? Patsy wore the jacket home that night. She was busy around the home - up and down the stairs, readying for the trip, etc. Do you think she would have kept her jacket layer on throughout all that, or take it off and casually toss it in one of those areas? Very easy pickins' for someone who was a crime novel buff to work into his plan.

I believe all of Patsy's behavior immediately following the crime could have been chalked up to any one person's conception of seeing a more than distraught mother, known to have a dramatic personality, being at the worst possible moment of her life she could have ever imagined. I'm not sure I would have even known what city I was living in at the time if it were me. Especially if I was taking regular mood-altering prescriptions and might have just been given more.

Patsy did make contradictory statements, even during later interviews. She even made statements that seemed unbelievable or aggressive. I think by that time, JR and the RST had prepared her for what she must convey if "they" were going to have a snowball's chance in h*ll of being the wrap. But she also suspected the truth. And gifted as she was at acting, the truth has a way of seeping out. I would think it would have taken extreme skill to balance the 'scripting' with her internal suspicions, even to keep her son protected, which is what she was working for.

Yes, the handwriting experts were well convinced. However, the evolving computer technology at the time could have convinced us of things we might not have considered. Here we are these years later with movies like "Avatar". I do not fault the handwriting analysis at that time, and even now, without considering the use of the special software program to assist in authoring it, the answer would remain the same. That's why the process cannot be considered scientifically accurate, and why, because it might have influenced how might a jury think, handwriting analysis is not always allowed as testimony in some cases. The RST team would have debunked it in a heartbeat in court. Add it to the list of why a DA does not consider there is enough evidence at this time.

Her response to the lie detectors would have been as a result of her own "truths" struggling against what the RST had scripted for her, which confirms the very reason lie detector results are not allowed in court as evidence. And why most suspects are advised by their legal teams not to take them. Too much ambiguity for the public response, as well as no legal reason.

I agree that JB's death was a murder. And given the difficulty of providing enough evidence to file charges of Murder against JR, that is why I also feel that Felony Murder charges would have the best chance of a successful outcome in court. With the statue of limitations expired on any other charges related to this case, the Felony Murder charge is the most viable - especially now that we know the GJ voted to indict.

:seeya:Thanks, Nom - I appreciate your input and respect your opinions!

 

[midwest mama]

So, like DocG, you are presuming Patsy is not going to recognize her own handwriting then.... That he expects the police to recognize it as Patsy's, but not Patsy herself.... But if she does, she should not suspect that it was someone trying to set her up either, because John even said he didn't believe that.. So who is left for her to suspect of writing it in her handwriting style then?

We have to assume she is completely oblivious in order for this scenario to be viable, yes.... Completely, of course.

I would seem so, right? I am basing my opinion on Patsy not making the connection between the print on the note to being hers because she KNEW she didn't write it. I don't doubt that even she (her mother said as well) after looking at it enough, saw that others might conclude it was hers. Even after the experts JR hired, gave her a 4.5 pass out of 5 as not authoring the note, I think it was the .5 part that prodded her to keep handing in samples to try to show her differences, not the similarities. What an excellent result JR's experts provided for him.

I have seen so many remarks written about Patsy's generous and giving nature usually being at the crux of her interaction with family and friends.
I think it was her nature to be a people-pleaser, and those are exactly the personalities that end up attached to narcissists. Patsy saw the note, would have naturally concurred it looked like her writing, but because she knew it wasn't, would never have believed in her own mind anything different and would have expected she would be able to show others exactly why it wasn't. She was married to JR, which I think would naturally groom her for having to look for the good in every situation, even when she saw difficulty or did not agree.

Patsy knew how to bank on her own convictions of what she saw as truths or problems. Her public displays of achievement, abilities and tenacities were outward displays of that.

All:moo:

 

[dodie20]

I like a lot of this theory and there may be more truth to it than we realize. Because face it, who do the odds point to as the prior abuser? Yes, any one of the 3 is a possibility, but based on life experience, which one is the most likely? Also, if a child is being sexually abused, which parent is most likely to ignore it and look the other way? I realize there might have been some role reversal going on here, but maybe not. If you remember...JR, in his own words, (when he claimed to have broken the window), put himself in the basement in his underwear! That 'explanation' was the biggest bunch of hogwash I've ever read, so Why would he make up that story? One of the things that points to PR as the abuser, IMO, are the reports of her rough cleaning JB. But when we think about it, what is the most likely reason a mother would 'craze clean' her daughter? I've long suspected that this story was to explain away the prior vaginal damage, ( if the need arose), but when the need DID arise, PR didn't admit to the cleaning. She and JR both just went into denial about prior abuse, even though the proof was right there in black and white. Also, what exactly was wiped off of JB? To be truthful, it will take a lot to convince me that PR didn't commit this murder, mainly because of the note and also because of all of her fibers being where they had no business being. But, if she Did commit the murder, what caused her initial rage? Maybe it wasn't wetting or soiling issues, maybe it was something else. I'm not saying I agree with the theory that she walked in on JR, but maybe she was enraged because she knew something had just happened and she was furious that she had to 'clean up' the mess, yet again. Anyway, I don't know what Colorado law is, but I've heard of grown women having their childhood abusers brought to justice, and IMO, this may be an avenue worth looking into. All moo

 

[dodie20]

Another thing. If a prosecutor can convince a jury that JR was the prior abuser, and that abuse led to JB's death? even if he didn't kill her, I think a murder charge of, 'child abuse resulting in death', could be made. Regardless, I want the truth to prevail and justice for whatever crimes were committed. Even if that justice, (because of statute of limitations), is no more than informing the public of what really happened, I want the truth to be known. Jonbenet DESERVES this, and so does the original grand jury. moo

 

[LinasK]

I like a lot of this theory and there may be more truth to it than we realize. Because face it, who do the odds point to as the prior abuser? Yes, any one of the 3 is a possibility, but based on life experience, which one is the most likely? Also, if a child is being sexually abused, which parent is most likely to ignore it and look the other way? I realize there might have been some role reversal going on here, but maybe not. If you remember...JR, in his own words, (when he claimed to have broken the window), put himself in the basement in his underwear! That 'explanation' was the biggest bunch of hogwash I've ever read, so Why would he make up that story? One of the things that points to PR as the abuser, IMO, are the reports of her rough cleaning JB. But when we think about it, what is the most likely reason a mother would 'craze clean' her daughter? I've long suspected that this story was to explain away the prior vaginal damage, ( if the need arose), but when the need DID arise, PR didn't admit to the cleaning. She and JR both just went into denial about prior abuse, even though the proof was right there in black and white. Also, what exactly was wiped off of JB? To be truthful, it will take a lot to convince me that PR didn't commit this murder, mainly because of the note and also because of all of her fibers being where they had no business being. But, if she Did commit the murder, what caused her initial rage? Maybe it wasn't wetting or soiling issues, maybe it was something else. I'm not saying I agree with the theory that she walked in on JR, but maybe she was enraged because she knew something had just happened and she was furious that she had to 'clean up' the mess, yet again. Anyway, I don't know what Colorado law is, but I've heard of grown women having their childhood abusers brought to justice, and IMO, this may be an avenue worth looking into. All moo

Yeah, but don't discount John's fibers having even less being where they had NO business being- in JB's panties!!! And I do believe Patsy would cover for John to stand by her man, not just for Burke.