JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #2

[Bryan9]

WHAT!!! Are you saying that this Melvin Carter made this statement (about MH last being seen getting into a cab) at the time of Morgans disappearance

As I suggested earlier, this is hearsay and we probably shouldn't treat it as factual unless it's supported by additional evidence. If it's true, though, it really is outrageous that this wasn't divulged. At the time, LE appealed to the public to come forward with any information that might prove helpful. They didn't tell us to try to recall whether we saw a cab that night!

 

[Bryan9]

... Sorry to be so graphic...

It's worth mentioning, for whatever light it might shed on HG's location, that LE officers have stated that there are similarities between the MH and Cassandra Morton crime scenes. See the second video at CBS6, about halfway through. As I understand the news reports, it seems that Morton was also savagely beaten. I believe MH's parents were told that MH died quickly and may not have suffered much... this may mean that the killing took place at some location other than the disposal site, perhaps. It makes me sick to think about this!

 

[GeeButtersnaps]

No cause of death has ever been determined/released by the medical examiner, but her death has been ruled a homicide. From what I have read, this means not natural causes, but I don't think shooting was involved.

Sorry to be so graphic, but it is reported that most of the bones in her body were crushed. At first I thought she may have been left there and then was hurt by farming equipment (non-intentional), but not so because she was found in the only field in which the hay had not been harvested, so it was waist high. Whoever did this knew that property well in advance. I shudder to think what might have crushed her ...horrible!

But what the article states is that Gil Harrington DOES know the cause of death as told by LE from the ME but she can't release that info. So we can't say ME has not determined a cause of death just that we don't know what it is..

 

[ksj3]

Somewhere there was mention of something "specific" withheld from the media and the public about one or two crimes that was pertinent to the investigation and seemed to tie a few together. I suspect this will all come out at trial. I wish I could remember where I'd seen that.

 

[human]

As I suggested earlier, this is hearsay and we probably shouldn't treat it as factual unless it's supported by additional evidence. If it's true, though, it really is outrageous that this wasn't divulged. At the time, LE appealed to the public to come forward with any information that might prove helpful. They didn't tell us to try to recall whether we saw a cab that night!

If someone wants to look for it, a member here named something like V A doll was POSTING IN 2009 that a cabbie friend had been interviewed by LE. Perhaps she will post again on here

 

[GeeButtersnaps]

If someone wants to look for it, a member here named something like V A doll was POSTING IN 2009 that a cabbie friend had been interviewed by LE. Perhaps she will post again on here

I just read that post from her in 2009 and IIRC she said the driver of the cab she got in the night she was there told her he was interviewed along with many of his colleagues about MH..I don't believe it was a friend of hers tho just a cabbie she got in with

 

[klily444]

Someone said there were signs that JLM had re-visited the site where MH was discovered partly buried in a shallow grave. Not having seen the crime scene photos, I can't confirm that.

As for tests of when the bones were broken - would that information have been released? Usually, that kind of information is not released until a trial...by witness testimony of the pathologist. Is that correct?

SolVol, can you tell me more about MH being partially buried. All I have read so far is they found her body, but I didn't realize it was buried. Do you, or anyone else, know what she was buried with? This is important, IMO. We would want to know if JM is a dumper or a burier. Would he take the time to bury, and how much time/effort? Or, does he dump the body in a panic and leave. Also, CM was partially buried.

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

I read an article this morning that contained an interview with Gil Harrington. She said they know the cause of Morgan's death but have been asked not to reveal it publicly. I've always wondered--mostly because of Gil's blog writings and Jane Vance's painting and poem tribute to Morgan that is titled "The Hunted"-- if indeed MH was hunted down.

Since Morgan's remains were skeletonized, the cause of death would have to be something radical and something that her bones would reveal. I have always wondered if she had been shot.

Perhaps the police found the gun used in Morgan's murder when they searched JM's apartment and car. Just my opinion.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/r...cle_86e9e9da-4d9f-54ff-9f2c-e8ffa88c9712.html

http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_9280c428-fb8b-50cf-a3b6-8d733477a35e.html

Ya know at the time when the mention of her bones being "shattered" I among some others could not help but think it was caused by a vehicle. Not farming equipment, but perhaps MH tried to escape and her capture decided to just run her down and over. Would explain "Bones being shattered". I find it hard to figure how someone could physically "shatter bones" --there would be many breaks but not "shattered, don't you think?? Sorry, it is really horrible to even think about, but that also could be what the Harringtons meant by "Hunted"

 

[trex]

Ya know at the time when the mention of her bones being "shattered" I among some others could not help but think it was caused by a vehicle. Not farming equipment, but perhaps MH tried to escape and her capture decided to just run her down and over. Would explain "Bones being shattered". I find it hard to figure how someone could physically "shatter bones" --there would be many breaks but not "shattered, don't you think?? Sorry, it is really horrible to even think about, but that also could be what the Harringtons meant by "Hunted"

Someone in this thread posted a link earlier that showed JLM's photos from a high school yearbook, where he was shown on the wrestling team as captain I believe and having won a championship as a wrestler. Granted he was younger then but he was *really* beefed up and strong looking, paired with the knowledge of many different wrestling moves intended to make someone submit. I hate to ponder such violence but I think it is entirely possible with the knowledge of how to keep someone submissive via his wrestling team days & he is just a huge guy who is probably still very strong that he could really, really, destroy someone. I know he is innocent until proven guilty, but I have a hard time not believing that several of these cases certainly involve him, especially with everything we know so far. I think his edge or motivation as a potential serial suspect is his strength & being able to overpower people.. and since he ruined his sports career perhaps this is his new "game". He plays it off like he might not be the brightest crayon in the box, but I think he is much more intelligent then most believe and that is why he's remained out in the open for so long like this with the image of being just another good ol' boy. Totally just my opinion.. But I fear there are more missing girls out there to be found by his hand besides Hannah.

 

[MJPeony]

I'm trying to understand the rationale behind not disclosing manner of death in the MH case. Not judging LE, but trying to actually understand why. In my own pedestrian brain, it seems that information would be pertinent in helping to find a perpetrator in the community. We had the sketch, the info from LE that the perp knew the farm/area well, info from the Harringtons that he was "walking among us", etc. But manner of death has been kept confidential. Wouldn't it help if we knew she had been shot? (people would now focus more on those with gun access for example), or that she'd been strangled? (offers more clues, etc.) Just in general, as sleuthing goes, the more information one has, the better able to form a more complete picture and thus more focus.

Why would COD not have been released given the "manhunt" so to speak?

 

[trex]

So I'm still fairly a newb here, forgive me and please let me know if this is not appropriate to post here in this particular thread - but I noticed earlier that some people were theorizing on the possibilities of JLM either carrying MH's body to the location it was found, or her running for her life and him chasing her and ending things there. I'm not sure if I can post this here and this may be something that has already been covered in a thread somewhere here or elsewhere, but if it is okay maybe it would be a good refresher for everyone who is pondering ideas....

I located this link while searching around online for information on MH's crime scene.. The admin where this was posted appears to have spent a great deal of time putting together ariel photos & maps with information regarding distance and possible routes to access the MH crime scene where she was found.. Again please let me know if I shouldn't have posted this here but I thought it may be useful to those who were theorizing on how she got there. Also, sometimes killers are known to place bodies around the same areas... example, the Green River killer. Maybe Anchorage Farm is a special place for JLM.. I'm sure the entire land around there has been scoured since MH was found there but, you never know. Here is the link -

http://persiflage.proboards.com/thread/27

eta - it also includes some maps of other areas of interest in the events of MH's last night. One thing I found interesting was on one or two of the aerial photos was the mention of an unoccupied building near'ish to where she was found.

 

[jamicat]

Is it usual not to reveal cause of death in such cases? I, too, wonder how the coroner could come up with cause with just skeltal remains as MH's body is often described.

 

[Foxfire]

Ya know at the time when the mention of her bones being "shattered" I among some others could not help but think it was caused by a vehicle. Not farming equipment, but perhaps MH tried to escape and her capture decided to just run her down and over. Would explain "Bones being shattered". I find it hard to figure how someone could physically "shatter bones" --there would be many breaks but not "shattered, don't you think?? Sorry, it is really horrible to even think about, but that also could be what the Harringtons meant by "Hunted"

R U Kidding, there have been many sexual predators/serial killers past that have actually hunted humans; copycats/emulators. Since the first fictional film version--> 'The Most Dangerous Game', a 1932 movie adaptation of the 1924 short story of the same name by Richard Connell - <Hunting Humans>..

But after reading the article, guess the painting's meaning is left up to one's own interpretation..

http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_9280c428-fb8b-50cf-a3b6-8d733477a35e.html

Blacksburg artist Jane Lillian Vance creates painting as reaction to Morgan Harrington slaying
Jane Lillian Vance Honors Her Student, Morgan Dana Harrington, with "The Hunted".
<sniped>
In the painting, the deer has returned to the scene &#8211; to bear witness. "We join her &#8211; and now, the perpetrators are the hunted."

________________________
<Serial Killers that Hunted Humans in reality - Warning Graphic>

The Frozen Ground 2013/14 <Robert Hansen; Butcher Baker 1980s AK>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZSo12hMuKE

DEADLY RUN <serial killer gary hilton; the forest killer, helped to write the script, chose the plot, filming locations, etc. 1994 -straight to video 14 years before his arrest in GA>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJosMwx1uxc
________________________
<fiction>

The Most Dangerous Game (1932)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_OvUS8TJo

 

[cluciano63]

Is it usual not to reveal cause of death in such cases? I, too, wonder how the coroner could come up with cause with just skeltal remains as MH's body is often described.

Not always, but fairly often COD is revealed. Since they have DNA they should not need to worry about false confessions. I can't imagine how they determined COD from her remains, unless evidence of a weapon was found. Or maybe blunt force trauma. But I am also wondering why, after five years, it has not been released or her parents statements not been echoed by LE. Jmo

 

[rosiebean]

I'm trying to understand the rationale behind not disclosing manner of death in the MH case. Not judging LE, but trying to actually understand why. In my own pedestrian brain, it seems that information would be pertinent in helping to find a perpetrator in the community. We had the sketch, the info from LE that the perp knew the farm/area well, info from the Harringtons that he was "walking among us", etc. But manner of death has been kept confidential. Wouldn't it help if we knew she had been shot? (people would now focus more on those with gun access for example), or that she'd been strangled? (offers more clues, etc.) Just in general, as sleuthing goes, the more information one has, the better able to form a more complete picture and thus more focus.

Why would COD not have been released given the "manhunt" so to speak?

Because it's information that only someone with intimate knowledge of the crime would know. So if someone confessed and said, "here's what I did" or slipped up during interrogation and eluded to a method of death, LE would know they had the right person. They also would find it harder to know--if they released too many details--if a possible confession was true, as false confessions do happen. If someone came forward saying, "this guy I was sleeping with got angry with me and said, 'I'll [insert means of death] to you, just like I did to Morgan", LE would know whether the guy in question was BSing or might be the perp.

It's something they have to think about when releasing any information. I get frustrated sometimes after the fact when I find out how much LE know and some of the things they didn't released would have led to the perp sooner. But sometimes, it's the things they don't release that allows them to capture the perp of a crime.

In the case of COD, I don't know if that would lead to useful leads. Saying the person had access to guns would probably not narrow leads down as, if Virginia is anything like West Virginia was when I lived there...well, more people have access to guns than those that don't. And other methods of killing really wouldn't offer many clues, IMO.

 

[Conductor71]

Because it's information that only someone with intimate knowledge of the crime would know. So if someone confessed and said, "here's what I did" or slipped up during interrogation and eluded to a method of death, LE would know they had the right person. They also would find it harder to know--if they released too many details--if a possible confession was true, as false confessions do happen. If someone came forward saying, "this guy I was sleeping with got angry with me and said, 'I'll [insert means of death] to you, just like I did to Morgan", LE would know whether the guy in question was BSing or might be the perp.

It's something they have to think about when releasing any information. I get frustrated sometimes after the fact when I find out how much LE know and some of the things they didn't released would have led to the perp sooner. But sometimes, it's the things they don't release that allows them to capture the perp of a crime.

In the case of COD, I don't know if that would lead to useful leads. Saying the person had access to guns would probably not narrow leads down as, if Virginia is anything like West Virginia was when I lived there...well, more people have access to guns than those that don't. And other methods of killing really wouldn't offer many clues, IMO.

Often it is not revealed when an investigation is active as it can be used tactically later on to trip up a suspect who may give unwittingly implicate himself by giving away info only the killer or LE might know or in contradicting what LE knows. It is is crucial info in any criminal investigation and has huge legal sway.

Just to clarify. Cause of Death is how a person died at the physiological leave in medical terms like cardiac arrest, asphyxiation, poisoning, etc. Manner of Death is the way in which a person reached that state; it is descriptive for lawyers and public health stats. A murder is always a homicide, but a homicide is not always a murder. It could be manslaughter. Homicide always means that another person was responsible or implicated.

 

[Bryan9]

If someone wants to look for it, a member here named something like V A doll was POSTING IN 2009 that a cabbie friend had been interviewed by LE. Perhaps she will post again on here

To clarify, there are two different assertions in play about the cabs and MH's disappearance:

#1: She was last seen getting into a cab
#2: LE interviewed (some) cabbies

Virginia Doll reported that a cabbie friend told her that he was interviewed. I don't see any reason to doubt that cabbies were interviewed by LE. There are multiple reports of this. They might have seen something, after all. I don't see any reason to doubt #2, although VSP expressly deny having interviewed JLM.

The only source for #1, however, is the head of a cab company who recalls that a detective told him that MH was last seen getting into a cab. That's what I mean by hearsay. He might have misinterpreted what the detective told him. So far as I know, there is no independent confirmation of this. I could be wrong -- if so, please let us know!

 

[cluciano63]

Because it's information that only someone with intimate knowledge of the crime would know. So if someone confessed and said, "here's what I did" or slipped up during interrogation and eluded to a method of death, LE would know they had the right person. They also would find it harder to know--if they released too many details--if a possible confession was true, as false confessions do happen. If someone came forward saying, "this guy I was sleeping with got angry with me and said, 'I'll [insert means of death] to you, just like I did to Morgan", LE would know whether the guy in question was BSing or might be the perp.

It's something they have to think about when releasing any information. I get frustrated sometimes after the fact when I find out how much LE know and some of the things they didn't released would have led to the perp sooner. But sometimes, it's the things they don't release that allows them to capture the perp of a crime.

In the case of COD, I don't know if that would lead to useful leads. Saying the person had access to guns would probably not narrow leads down as, if Virginia is anything like West Virginia was when I lived there...well, more people have access to guns than those that don't. And other methods of killing really wouldn't offer many clues, IMO.

But if they have JM's DNA...a false confession would be quickly ruled out, Imo.

 

[billthom56]

My understanding in talking with the FBI investigators about my sister Cathy's death as part of the Colonial Parkway Murders is that they will withhold certain key details that only the killer would know. When questioning a suspect, they will ask the person about the details. Remember, high profile cases also bring out the crazies who want to confess to the crimes even if all they did was hear/read about them. They listen carefully for those key details. That way suspects can be moved further down the most likely list-- if they don't get all of the details right, that means they probably weren't there. Way faster and cheaper than DNA testing.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

Because it's information that only someone with intimate knowledge of the crime would know. So if someone confessed and said, "here's what I did" or slipped up during interrogation and eluded to a method of death, LE would know they had the right person. They also would find it harder to know--if they released too many details--if a possible confession was true, as false confessions do happen. If someone came forward saying, "this guy I was sleeping with got angry with me and said, 'I'll [insert means of death] to you, just like I did to Morgan", LE would know whether the guy in question was BSing or might be the perp.

It's something they have to think about when releasing any information. I get frustrated sometimes after the fact when I find out how much LE know and some of the things they didn't released would have led to the perp sooner. But sometimes, it's the things they don't release that allows them to capture the perp of a crime.

In the case of COD, I don't know if that would lead to useful leads. Saying the person had access to guns would probably not narrow leads down as, if Virginia is anything like West Virginia was when I lived there...well, more people have access to guns than those that don't. And other methods of killing really wouldn't offer many clues, IMO.

 

[NCSleuth]

In the MH case, LE knew they were looking for a 6ft 220lb black guy aged between 25-35. There was suspicion MH got into a cab. How did JM not get caught before now? How many 25-35 year old 6ft, 220 black guys were driving cabs in Charlottesville in 2009? I know this sounds very critical of LE, but I can't be the only person asking this question.