JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

[ThinkHard]

I agree, that is the popular view. However, I have provided the links that discusses the other aspects . My original question is how is pschopathy manifested in an individual. Autism is inherited through traits handed down by parents. As well, I suspect pschopathy is inherited through traits from the parents. I then extended that thought to Google Search (GS) autism and violent behavior and found something more indepth related to criminal behavior including rape and murder.

The reading is quite easy to take in and so I recommend a more indepth GS of terms related to pschopathy and autism to learn more about how someone like Jesse could appear functional, with educational deficiencies, lack boundaries, demonstrate impulsiveness, and not know when to stop, etc and still have a teddy bear description by his friends.

Yes, their appears to be calculated behaviors, there can be knowledge of good and bad, but we are missing the information about where things break down in his behavior. The behavior that becomes obsessive and repetitive and even how that combines with consumption of alcohol.

Another opportunity to perform GS on the terms pychopathy, alcohol, autism and see what information highlights.

I would like to know what you find.

I understand you have provided links but are those links solely what you are basing your opinion on? Are you familiar first hand with anyone on the spectrum? As someone with ASD, have pretty good insight into the difference btw lack of empathy, and lack of expressive empathy. I often get myself in arguments with people because I latch on to some fact they said being incorrect, and just some compulsion for the need for facts to be accurate....but my approach is often "tactless" because the idea that ones emotions could be involved in something that is just a fact often baffles me. I work very hard to be mindful, but its a concerted effort. However if I have hurt someone's feelings, though it might not always make sense to me why they were so "sensitive", I still feel horribly guilty about causing them any kind of pain.

I also work with children on the spectrum, and children with many many other LD's, developmental disorders, and major behavior disorders and have for over 10 years. Its where my heart is. So not only do I know how I think, but I have lots of experience under my belt with insight into how children with a whole spectrum of struggles think, learn, function, cope, and develop as well.

I would be more inclined to think the link btw diagnosed individuals with ASD who committed violent crimes were either mis-diagnosed...or they have a cluster of conditions and ASD is only a piece of it.

I know you said my view was the "popular" view....but there really is so much more to it then that. Again I'm not sure what knowledge or experience you are framing your opinion on....but the view you are painting of autism is more of an innacurate stereotype that does not help the autistic population be understood better. So if you really would like to understand a more complete picture, I encourage you to be open minded. I can also suggest some books if you'd like. I have read several dozen on the topic, and I keep up on the current research (fyi: Temple Grandin does a particularly good job at explaining the asd brain). I'm not sure a GS will give me an new info I'm not already aware of. I have read research similar to what you are referring too....but I also have a much more complete and comprehensive understanding of ASD to weigh it against.

I was one of the first ones who mentioned a link btw autism and psychopathy...but that link is more in terms of the PARTS of the brain that are effected on a f-mri. But just because the same parts are effected, they are not effected in the same way. However it does explain perhaps some overlay in symptoms.

The "empathy" component in both ASD and psychopathy is neurologically different from a neurotypical person.....true...BUT what I think is being missed, or overlooked....is that though they both differ from the general population....they also differ from each other as well.

 

[ThinkHard]

This is another of the things that make me think he has at least some psychopathic tendencies. If you look at serial killers, almost none of them can keep a steady job for more than a year or two, even cases of like Ted Bundy, who fooled everyone into thinking he was responsible. A lot of them are very irresponsible with their money, because they see no problem with stealing if they run out. In my opinion, JLM fits those traits — he went to multiple colleges, has had at least two jobs that we know of (I think three, actually, but I can't remember the third), was irresponsible with rent.

Additionally, when you look at serial killers, so many of them say they feel like there are two people within them — Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes and a few others have outright said that they feel that way. (At least one non-violent sociopath has said that, too; M.E. Thomas has a blog and wrote a book, and I have seen her write about her "rage" almost as if it's a separate being.)

As far as the cab incident, maybe he actually did feel guilt there. But that doesn't mean he's capable of empathy. Ann Rule describes Ted Bundy as someone who (she thought, at least) looked out for her well-being when they worked nights at a suicide crisis hotline together, and when he confessed to his murders he told his mother that it had nothing to do with her or how she raised him, seemingly in an attempt to make her feel better. He had a girlfriend who trusted him to the point of marrying him while he was in court on multiple, brutal murder counts because she didn't think he could do it. But if you read about his conversations with law enforcement and psychiatic professionals, he was very clearly a textbook psychopath, no doubt whatsoever. Maybe he had a couple of people that, after long association, he was able to think of them as human. Maybe he just got really, really good at mimicking compassion without actually feeling it in some instances.

I think it's entirely possible to be a killer without being a psychopath. But in my opinion, to be a serial killer, unless someone is completely, violently schizophrenic, they have to "default" to thinking of people as objects, and compassion for others is a very rare exception. I simply can't see anyone with an ounce of empathy for strangers being able to rack up a body count, especially with something as "up close and personal" as strangulation.

If JLM does prove to be a serial killer — and it definitely looks suspicious IMO — I just don't think he's going to be an exception to that. He may have a few people he cares about — even some of the most cold-blooded killers like Leonard Lake and Charles Ng seemed to have some sort of concern for each other — but I doubt he has any sort of feeling toward the majority of humanity or at least women in general. As for the assault, it was in public. Whether he knew he could get swabbed for DNA or not, he DEFINITELY knew he could go to jail, get sued, lose his job, or any combination of those. Maybe he felt some remorse, but I doubt it. A shift that incredibly quick points more to him getting his rage under control after realizing he's in a public place and there could be consequences he didn't want to deal with, IMO.

Well we also know, from reports and statement by friends, and girls he went to college with...that he seemed to need extra help in reading, and that his penmanship was childish. I think he likely did have some type of LD, perhaps dyslexia (also a neurological difference), or it could be some kind of processing disorder, or any number of things. My point is having an LD, not being a strong reader or writer....that could just as easily point to an explanation for his employment history too!

Also I KNOW having a learning disability can frustrate the HECK out of a child....even a child as young as 4! Kids quickly recognize when things do not come to them as quickly as their peers. They know there is something different about them, but they don't understand why. I have seen this being the cause for a whole lot of acting out behavior and aggressive behavior mostly in boys. (Preschool age boys too). Add in some family drama...or other stressors...like teachers labeling the kid as a trouble maker, kids pick up on that and shun him...leads to feeling further ostracized...you get one angry, frustrated, hurt, sad, and confused kid.

I'm not saying an LD made or led JLM to be a rapist and murder...just that perhaps it was the first major blow to his foundation.

 

[jbowman55]

Though I'm not discounting he may have a foot fetish...I do find it hard to believe that two women not letting him touch their feet would send him into a murderous rage. A fetish might be part of his profile, but I do not think it is related to what causes his rage.

Maybe grandma spoiled her sweet baby boy, and now a woman's denial of anything (important) triggers rage. I would say to a serial rapist, sexual favors that lead to a potentially powerful, dominating, and in-control feeling for the perp might be considered important. Just throwing this out there for comments, not even my opinion really, just a thought.

 

[jamicat]

This is another of the things that make me think he has at least some psychopathic tendencies. If you look at serial killers, almost none of them can keep a steady job for more than a year or two, even cases of like Ted Bundy, who fooled everyone into thinking he was responsible. A lot of them are very irresponsible with their money, because they see no problem with stealing if they run out. In my opinion, JLM fits those traits — he went to multiple colleges, has had at least two jobs that we know of (I think three, actually, but I can't remember the third), was irresponsible with rent.

Additionally, when you look at serial killers, so many of them say they feel like there are two people within them — Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes and a few others have outright said that they feel that way. (At least one non-violent sociopath has said that, too; M.E. Thomas has a blog and wrote a book, and I have seen her write about her "rage" almost as if it's a separate being.)

As far as the cab incident, maybe he actually did feel guilt there. But that doesn't mean he's capable of empathy. Ann Rule describes Ted Bundy as someone who (she thought, at least) looked out for her well-being when they worked nights at a suicide crisis hotline together, and when he confessed to his murders he told his mother that it had nothing to do with her or how she raised him, seemingly in an attempt to make her feel better. He had a girlfriend who trusted him to the point of marrying him while he was in court on multiple, brutal murder counts because she didn't think he could do it. But if you read about his conversations with law enforcement and psychiatic professionals, he was very clearly a textbook psychopath, no doubt whatsoever. Maybe he had a couple of people that, after long association, he was able to think of them as human. Maybe he just got really, really good at mimicking compassion without actually feeling it in some instances.

I think it's entirely possible to be a killer without being a psychopath. But in my opinion, to be a serial killer, unless someone is completely, violently schizophrenic, they have to "default" to thinking of people as objects, and compassion for others is a very rare exception. I simply can't see anyone with an ounce of empathy for strangers being able to rack up a body count, especially with something as "up close and personal" as strangulation.

If JLM does prove to be a serial killer — and it definitely looks suspicious IMO — I just don't think he's going to be an exception to that. He may have a few people he cares about — even some of the most cold-blooded killers like Leonard Lake and Charles Ng seemed to have some sort of concern for each other — but I doubt he has any sort of feeling toward the majority of humanity or at least women in general. As for the assault, it was in public. Whether he knew he could get swabbed for DNA or not, he DEFINITELY knew he could go to jail, get sued, lose his job, or any combination of those. Maybe he felt some remorse, but I doubt it. A shift that incredibly quick points more to him getting his rage under control after realizing he's in a public place and there could be consequences he didn't want to deal with, IMO.

BBM. I think you nailed it right there regarding that incident. He was in public. If the incident had happened on some remote road, that lawyer would have lost more than his cell phone and gotten more than that whack, IMO. Likely they'd have found him in some ditch somewhere, with a broken neck and never figured out who did him in.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think it's entirely possible to be a killer without being a psychopath. But in my opinion, to be a serial killer, unless someone is completely, violently schizophrenic, they have to "default" to thinking of people as objects, and compassion for others is a very rare exception. I simply can't see anyone with an ounce of empathy for strangers being able to rack up a body count, especially with something as "up close and personal" as strangulation.

Sadly, I don't think the ability to treat people like objects is exclusive to killers, rapists, and psychopaths. I think each one of us has at times; daily, weekly, that we dehumanize each other...I think crying for the death penalty is one of those very examples of how ordinary people dehumanize another.

 

[ThinkHard]

There are quite a few studies that show that psychopathy is probably inherited, and may be similar to autism spectrum disorders, but in the other extreme. I've seen it described as psychopathy is a recognition of the emotions of others with a lack of compassion, whereas ASD (autism spectrum disorders) are a lack of recognition of the emotions of others but with plenty of compassion.

This link has a good breakdown: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201402/aspergers-disorder-vs-psychopathy Violence is no more prevalent among people with ASD than the neurotypical population, and it tends to be much less calculated and more impulsive than psychopathic violence. And many of the cases of violence among people with ASD was linked to another psychiatric disorder which DOES often manifest in violence.

But there is some interesting info about the genetics and anatomy of psychopathy out there. This guy writes a lot about the neurology of psychopathy, after he was studying the disorder and found his brain scans indicated he was a psychopath: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...covered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/?no-ist I believe he and some other neurologists are beginning to look at psychopathy as a neuropsychiatric disorder rather than a pure psychiatric disorder (schizophrenia, too, I think).

ETA: Another good link on psychopathy: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/tick/psych_6.html

Yup and autism too! Its not just a behavior it is a neurobiological brain difference i say!....not a disorder (but im biased!).

They have done lots of functional mri tests to see what parts of the brain light up with different stimuli....I'd be willing to bet that most disorders that effect behavior have a root in a neurobiological cause...either born with a brain difference, brain damage, toxic overload, vitamin deficiency....I think you will see most "psychological" disorders head in this direction in the years ahead.

What really interesting about it is that in functional mri can identify for example difference btw just aspergers and autism in the brain....perhaps when there is a person or child who has symptoms that are split btw multi disorders, MRI's might be an effective diagnostic tool....which could lead to better and more effective early intervention....if say, for example, they might show a psychopath brain....then intervention that works in framing social skills, and social language, and ethics, to someone that might not innately just "get it" ... And helping them work through their emotions, when they are very young.etc maybe we wouldn't reduce psychopaths, but perhaps the violent psychopaths...

 

[Soulmagent]

Thanks,Interesting post. If a guy liked looking at big *advertiser censored* ;most people would say 'so do I' . There are many guys that like women's feet(strange but true) ;if JM was denied his 'pleasure' ,I think he could get very angry with being denied. Then he sees a 'victim' and releases his pent up rage on her. Just my opinion of course. Where could he tuck those shoes away? Did he have a locker at the hospital? a gym locker somewhere? maybe grandma's house?

I searched up foot fetish pages in C ville a few weeks back ..

 

[ThinkHard]

First, thank you for the link to the Psychology Today article. Clear and to the point.

Secondly, I remember reading about James Fallon's discovery about himself and about his book, The Psychopath Inside. If I came away from reading anything about Dr. Fallon, it was that our biology does not have to determine who we are and what we do. It's only part of the equation. Even Fallon, who was previously a "genetic determinist" has come to theorize that people who may have different neurological wiring do not have predetermined outcomes. Having a "positive (or negative) childhood is especially pivotal in determining behavioral outcomes." And of course, the third factor to consider in this complex equation: free will. I would add that Fallon also possesses one more valuable trait that most psychopaths aren't privy to: an incredible amount of self awareness and education on the subject.

I agree with this. I know even with doing all the "right things" kids can still wind up doing awful things...but that being said, I'd like to add my two scents on this:

From lots of experience with children, one of the things I have observed time and time again, is a child with some "issues" having a parent who is inadvertently making certain behaviors worse, or inadvertently not helping them develop the skills they need to overcome or cope with their struggles. I have very very RARELY witnesses a parent who intended or was even aware of the negative influence they were having over their child. They were not doing anything "wrong" as parents. And in fact what they were doing might have been exactly right...for another child. But their choices might not be meeting the needs of that child. For example, I've seen kids have major anxiety issues because their was not enough structure, in their home, and their parent was giving them way too much power in terms of too many choices, and it was just overwhelming for this child. My point is if you have a child who is going through something, or has a neuro-atypical brain....your approach to "educating" them socially is going to be different then your average child. Its almost more like teaching them to speak a second (social) language.

Anyway the point is, I've seen many many times exactly what this researcher is referring too. Sometimes its not so much that a kid was raised "wrong" just giving their struggles, they may not have been given the the support to develop the skills they uniquely needed.

 

[chipmunk]

Thanks,Interesting post. If a guy liked looking at big *advertiser censored* ;most people would say 'so do I' . There are many guys that like women's feet(strange but true) ;if JM was denied his 'pleasure' ,I think he could get very angry with being denied. Then he sees a 'victim' and releases his pent up rage on her. Just my opinion of course. Where could he tuck those shoes away? Did he have a locker at the hospital? a gym locker somewhere? maybe grandma's house?

I didn't know it was fairly common for men to be attracted to women's feet. High heels yes, at least in our culture.

 

[ThinkHard]

Hey I know I discussed a lot about functional mri studies and autism etc....I just wanted to link some research....per mods request

http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/1999_BCetal_FMRI.pdf

The author is Simon Baron-Cohen....he also wrote a book in 2011 titled "The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty"

He discusses the origin relation and the empathy question in both autism and psychopathy in this book....and does emphasize there are MAJOR difference...ie not the same!

The book is great!!!! I really really highly recommend it! Especially if this is a topic of interest to you.

 

[Ollie]

on WS under 'Links between RLT and JM' forum;link #45 brings up JM and his foot fetish. So I did further research and found that more people have this fetish than you would think. Somehow the feet 'trigger' a sexual response in these individuals. So if the women he accosted at the bar ,blocked his access;I'm wondering if this started his rage and lead to HG's demise that night. We all feel he is a psychopath who functioned without being caught for a long time. He had to have' triggers' that set him off on these episodes. After the attacks,he returns to 'Clark Kent' and goes to work and church,volunteers with football kids.

 

[Quill]

I didn't know it was fairly common for men to be attracted to women's feet. High heels yes, at least in our culture.

Apparently more common than most of us realize. A close friend of mine sent her daughter to a very popular summer camp in our area for a week. While she was there an "incident" occurred. This girl was about 13 at the time. As she was walking from one area to another a boy was sitting off by himself and asked her to come there. She felt sorry for him sitting all alone, so she sat down to be nice to him. She had gotten a blister from her sandals and he showed concern. Before she knew what was happening, he had slipped her sandal off and LICKED her foot! She reported it and it was acknowledged that it was a problem and they dealt with it. Camp staff told her parents. The girl was mortified, as was I when the mother told me about it. So, there you go. Some start as young as 13.

 

[SolverGameChanger]

Ok, based on the discussion about possible inherited traits it seems that most would agree that there is a potential for an inherited trait of JLM to contribute to his behavior and actions in the case of HG, MH, ... etc. That leads to the potential for early prevention at important points of a person's development even into the retirement years.

So now I pose a question about the environment in the C'ville down town mall area.

what is the norm for crime originating in the Mall area.

There is a really nice link somewhere that allows you to click on the area of the downtown district and crime reports stats are presented according to the crime.

From that data, I would like to ask what is the norm or say how normal is JLM behavior within that environment.

Then pose a further question of influence of people present and other conditions that may skew the probability of JLM's actions in that environment.

How normal are those actions considering the time, locations, people around, camera's around, lights, space, location to exits etc.

and finally, how many "JLMs" have been in that environment and what was their behavior under those similar conditions.

back to the stats of the down town mall area.

 

[LI-Mom]

In looking for information on the subject, I did run across this rather old report (February 1990) that sums up FBI interviews with 41 convicted serial rapists during the mid-1980s:

The Criminal Behavior of the Serial Rapist by Robert R. Hazelwood, Special Agent, Behavioral Science Instruction/Research Unit and Janet Warren, D.S.W., Institute of Psychiatry and Law, University of Virginia.

I will read that, thanks.

If you're interested I had found these 2 studies. The first, which is from 1980 I think, was a study of convicted rapists in the Commonwealth of Virginia:

Convicted Rapist's Vocabulary Of Motive Excuses And Justifications

https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readings/scullyandmarollis.htm


The second is a study published in 2002 of self admitted rapists who were not prosecuted. They questioned students at a university:

Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending Among Undetected Rapists

http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf

I had found the second study through an article that stated;

Let's be clear: No one is saying that the high rates of victimization among college women mean that all men are rapists. That 1 in 5 college women have been assaulted doesn't mean that 1 in 5 men are assailants. Far from it. A study published in 2002 by David Lisak and Paul Miller, for which they interviewed college men about their sexual histories, found that only about 6 percent of the men surveyed had attempted or successfully raped someone. While some of them only tried once, most of the rapists were repeat offenders, with each committing an average of 5.8 rapes apiece. The 6 percent of men who were rapists were generally violent men, as well. "The 120 rapists were responsible for 1,225 separate acts of interpersonal violence, including rape, battery, and child physical and sexual abuse," the researchers write. A single rapist can leave a wake of victims, racking up the numbers rapidly, as the victim surveys are clearly showing.

Source: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...o_many_victims_but_not_as_many_predators.html

This is sick and scary. No wonder JM just went on to rape again, it takes quite a few acts of violence against women before these guys are caught and stopped, if they ever are.

 

[PricklyPear]

Sadly, I don't think the ability to treat people like objects is exclusive to killers, rapists, and psychopaths. I think each one of us has at times; daily, weekly, that we dehumanize each other...I think crying for the death penalty is one of those very examples of how ordinary people dehumanize another.

Oh, I'm not saying that's not true! There's quite a bit to support that a lot of people have "in-groups" (people they identify with and consider themselves a member of) and "out-groups" (the Other) and that we tend to grant less humanity to people in out-groups. That's how stuff like racism and homophobia work, and why so many racists have "exceptions" (i.e., black/gay friends who the racist/homophobe believes aren't like those other black/gay people). But the "default" for most people is to consider strangers — at the very least, strangers in your in-group, if not all strangers — to be humans with thoughts and feelings who are worthy of basic sympathy and respect. Most of the time it takes work to dehumanize someone. You have to come up with reasons they're not like you before you feel comfortable revoking their right to sympathy and respect.

IMO, the difference with psychopaths is that EVERYONE is part of the out-group, and no one except themselves and MAYBE (rarely) one or two others are part of the in-group. And because they cannot empathize well or maybe even at all with others, it does not take much work for them to stop considering other human beings worthy of basic respect (such as the right to not be murdered or raped). Every single person they meet is considered an object to be manipulated or an obstacle to them getting what they want from the first moment. Does that mean they're always going to be violent? No, of course not. There are plenty of functional, non-violent psychopaths who are contributing members of society. A lot of articles point out that they tend to be excellent business and political leaders.

But while everyone is capable of rage and violence, but in my opinion, the cold and calculated way serial killers go about hunting their victims and the often brutal and "close-up" way they murder them (very few serial killers seem to use guns, and the ones who do are almost always very close to their victims when they do shoot them, it seems like) points to an inability to see their victims as people. And even when they have a victim profile, serial killers don't have any real reason (other than age, appearance, gender, etc.) to target their victims. They're usually not people who have wronged the killer in some way, or who angered the killer somehow. They're strangers and the killer planned his crime the moment he laid eyes on them or sometimes before, with no "motive" for targeting that particular person. Again, points to a tendency to see people as objects. Even if they are projecting their rage at someone they know, like Ed Kemper and his mother, for example, it just indicates they see people as such flat caricatures that they're completely interchangeable.

Again, all IMO.

 

[jamicat]

I didn't know it was fairly common for men to be attracted to women's feet. High heels yes, at least in our culture.

If JM had kept his fetishes to the feet , things would not have gotten to where they now are.

 

[LI-Mom]

Not sure this belongs here because it pertains to the Fairfax hearing Friday, but it brings up psych evaluation.

Insanity Bid? Experts See Bleak Options for Matthew

http://wvtf.org/post/insanity-bid-experts-see-bleak-options-matthew

 

[MJPeony]

Not sure this belongs here because it pertains to the Fairfax hearing Friday, but it brings up psych evaluation.

Insanity Bid? Experts See Bleak Options for Matthew

http://wvtf.org/post/insanity-bid-experts-see-bleak-options-matthew

Thanks. Well, that article makes me feel better. For some reason I've been angry to think that Camblos might go the insanity route (and I've assumed this is what he would do). But now I feel a little better- about JM's chances of being found guilty under that auspice, but also about the result of that if it does occur. The mental institute would for life would be a pretty unpleasant environment, and he'd be "locked up for life" there at least.

 

[SolverGameChanger]

I found the link to the C'ville crime reports. It can expand to the state of virginia if you would like. This might help anyone interested in looking at a particular area of C'ville. This includes a specific area north 29 and enclosing the Mall area.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/va/charlottesville/crime/

before I consider JLM's behavior, I want to know where is everyone else contributing to crime in the area. What is the norm that JLM's behavior could continue under a certain level of "status quo".

Is there someone else that JLM's is copying or collaborating with ?


Take a look at the link and let me know what you think.

 

[MJPeony]

I found the link to the C'ville crime reports. It can expand to the state of virginia if you would like. This might help anyone interested in looking at a particular area of C'ville. This includes a specific area north 29 and enclosing the Mall area.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/va/charlottesville/crime/

before I consider JLM's behavior, I want to know where is everyone else contributing to crime in the area. What is the norm that JLM's behavior could continue under a certain level of "status quo".

Is there someone else that JLM's is copying or collaborating with ?


Take a look at the link and let me know what you think.

Hmm, it's telling me I need to subscribe (?)