JLM: What Do We Know About Him? - #3

[SteveP]

Most states use a sliding scale of 71-75 to determine if a defendant is "intellectually disabled" so it could be if a person is not particularly "bright" but can otherwise function, they "might" test within that range, I just don't know. JMO

Not sure where he may test, but this guy graduated high school, was accepted to two universities and a community college, had a drivers license and at one time had a permit that allowed him to transport other people as his job, went on to gainful employment at a medical center, a job which he held until his arrest. I don't think 'diminished capacity' or incompetence to stand trial and pay the ultimate penalty for his crimes is gonna be something we have to worry about. JMO

 

[Paulap]

Most states use a sliding scale of 71-75 to determine if a defendant is "intellectually disabled" so it could be if a person is not particularly "bright" but can otherwise function, they "might" test within that range, I just don't know. JMO

i recognize that but lj is imo not intellectually disabled
he has functioned for years on his own and just from what i know of him, i doubt that he would test in that range

 

[ILOKAL]

Not sure where he may test, but this guy graduated high school, was accepted to two universities and a community college, had a drivers license and at one time had a permit that allowed him to transport other people as his job, went on to gainful employment at a medical center, a job which he held until his arrest. I don't think 'diminished capacity' or incompetence to stand trial and pay the ultimate penalty for his crimes is gonna be something we have to worry about. JMO

I don't think we have a valid way of knowing how many people, if any, do those same things with an I.Q. in the range of 71-75. At this time, we have no way of knowing what JLM's I.Q. is or what he will test at, none of which will determine his competence to stand trial. I would imagine the "intellectually disabled" (mentally retarded) test would only come into play and be heard during the sentencing phase, IMO

 

[jbowman55]

I don't think we have a valid way of knowing how many people, if any, do those same things with an I.Q. in the range of 71-75. At this time, we have no way of knowing what JLM's I.Q. is or what he will test at, none of which will determine his competence to stand trial. I would imagine the "intellectually disabled" (mentally retarded) test would only come into play and be heard during the sentencing phase, IMO

Is there not also a consideration, based on intelligence measures, of whether a defendant understands the charges against him and is able to assist in his own defense? Or have I just watched too many cop shows?

Frankly, certain behaviors of JM's remind me of the one person I know who has Asberger's. Social awkwardness, inability to read subtle (or even not-so-subtle) emotive signals and body language, flashes of temper followed by an urgency to make everything all right (fear of "getting into trouble"), lack of understanding of consequences attached to actions, all this is very much like the person I know. What I don't know is whether all these characteristics in the person I know are related to his Asberger's, or simply personality traits that he'd have even if he DIDN'T have the condition. Admittedly I know almost nothing about autism-spectrum disorders, so this is just a casual observation, just me "wondering," so to speak.

 

[Concerned Mama]

As a teacher, here's what I know about the education system in relation to IQ and qualifications for different placements in the system. It's been reported by acquaintances that JLM was in remedial reading classes. I do not know the exact nature of the class, or if it has even been verified, but here's what I know about who gets placed where and with what label. (PaulaP, please jump in at any time with facts you know ).

If JLM was labeled as "Learning Disabled" in reading, that means that there was at least a 15 point discrepancy between his numerical IQ score and the score at which he performed in reading. That's where "Exceptional Children" or EC status comes in. If JLM was labeled as EC with SLD in reading, he likely has a normal IQ, but a reading performance that would be in the very low range, even looking like "mentally disabled" in reading, and is not, in fact anywhere near his IQ/ability level. That would not mean that JLM is mentally disabled, though. It would simply mean he has a learning disability that interferes with his ability to process/comprehend written language.

If JLM were actually mentally disabled, with an IQ that was low enough to be in line with his reading performance scores, he would not be in a remedial reading course, most likely. Instead, he would be probably have been in a separate setting for his essential skills classes, including reading/language arts and math. Students who have an IQ this low rarely graduate with a high school diploma. They may be mainstreamed in regular classroom settings for classes like physical education, art, drama, and possibly even science and history, with huge modifications. For people who graduated around 2000, like JLM, the likelihood that a mentally disabled student would be completely mainstreamed in all classes, graduate with a regular high school diploma, and receive an athletic scholarship to a university is extremely unlikely. "Inclusion" or "least-restrictive learning environment" did not become standard until the past 5 years or so in most parts of the South. Terminology may vary from state to state, and possibly even categorizations of where the cut-off is for regular instruction with EC help vs. separate setting mentally disabled instruction, but what I've outlined is a general guideline in public schools.

So what is it I'm saying, in a nutshell? JLM may very well be learning disabled in written language, but the likelihood of his being of low IQ and meeting requirements for being mentally disabled, handicapped, "retarded," or whatever your terminology may be, is extremely slim.

 

[SteveP]

As a teacher, here's what I know about the education system in relation to IQ and qualifications for different placements in the system. It's been reported by acquaintances that JLM was in remedial reading classes. I do not know the exact nature of the class, or if it has even been verified, but here's what I know about who gets placed where and with what label. (PaulaP, please jump in at any time with facts you know ).

If JLM was labeled as "Learning Disabled" in reading, that means that there was at least a 15 point discrepancy between his numerical IQ score and the score at which he performed in reading. That's where "Exceptional Children" or EC status comes in. If JLM was labeled as EC with SLD in reading, he likely has a normal IQ, but a reading performance that would be in the very low range, even looking like "mentally disabled" in reading, and is not, in fact anywhere near his IQ/ability level. That would not mean that JLM is mentally disabled, though. It would simply mean he has a learning disability that interferes with his ability to process/comprehend written language.

If JLM were actually mentally disabled, with an IQ that was low enough to be in line with his reading performance scores, he would not be in a remedial reading course, most likely. Instead, he would be probably have been in a separate setting for his essential skills classes, including reading/language arts and math. Students who have an IQ this low rarely graduate with a high school diploma. They may be mainstreamed in regular classroom settings for classes like physical education, art, drama, and possibly even science and history, with huge modifications. For people who graduated around 2000, like JLM, the likelihood that a mentally disabled student would be completely mainstreamed in all classes, graduate with a regular high school diploma, and receive an athletic scholarship to a university is extremely unlikely. "Inclusion" or "least-restrictive learning environment" did not become standard until the past 5 years or so in most parts of the South. Terminology may vary from state to state, and possibly even categorizations of where the cut-off is for regular instruction with EC help vs. separate setting mentally disabled instruction, but what I've outlined is a general guideline in public schools.

So what is it I'm saying, in a nutshell? JLM may very well be learning disabled in written language, but the likelihood of his being of low IQ and meeting requirements for being mentally disabled, handicapped, "retarded," or whatever your terminology may be, is extremely slim.

Thank you for an excellent perspective that could only come from a teacher! And thank you for being a teacher!

 

[MJPeony]

Is there not also a consideration, based on intelligence measures, of whether a defendant understands the charges against him and is able to assist in his own defense? Or have I just watched too many cop shows?

Frankly, certain behaviors of JM's remind me of the one person I know who has Asberger's. Social awkwardness, inability to read subtle (or even not-so-subtle) emotive signals and body language, flashes of temper followed by an urgency to make everything all right (fear of "getting into trouble"), lack of understanding of consequences attached to actions, all this is very much like the person I know. What I don't know is whether all these characteristics in the person I know are related to his Asberger's, or simply personality traits that he'd have even if he DIDN'T have the condition. Admittedly I know almost nothing about autism-spectrum disorders, so this is just a casual observation, just me "wondering," so to speak.

Appreciate and respect your thoughts and your sharing. However, having a child with Asperger's I don't find many of the characteristics you mention of your friend to be in keeping with classic Aspergers. It's a delicate topic, no doubt, about discussing criminal pathology as it pertains to specific mental or emotional diagnoses. And so I'm not trying to squelch discourse or fan flames. But I feel have learned a great deal about the Autism spectrum and just needed to share my differing views here. JMO.

I do agree that there are sometimes overlapping traits with a variety of mental and emotional issues (degree being important) as it pertains to crime. I just don't think there has been a proven correlation to the point of making any sort of assumption of diagnosis based on criminal actions. And, like I said, several of the traits you mention of your friend don't fit with typical Asperger's. For example, often there is actually a high or even "gifted" iq with Asp. And an urgency to make things right after a flash of temper is not something I've personally ever heard of regarding Asperger's diagnoses. And those with Asperger's can very often be the most gentle or reserved person in a room, albeit socially awkward perhaps.

I had several links I provided a while back, but don't think I can find them right now- sorry.

Like I said, I know it's a sensitive topic- and it's been debated already quite hotly on these threads already. I won't get into that here, so no one need worry I did want to write a response though. JMO

 

[EmmaRose]

As a teacher, here's what I know about the education system in relation to IQ and qualifications for different placements in the system. It's been reported by acquaintances that JLM was in remedial reading classes. I do not know the exact nature of the class, or if it has even been verified, but here's what I know about who gets placed where and with what label. (PaulaP, please jump in at any time with facts you know ).


If JLM was labeled as "Learning Disabled" in reading, that means that there was at least a 15 point discrepancy between his numerical IQ score and the score at which he performed in reading. That's where "Exceptional Children" or EC status comes in. If JLM was labeled as EC with SLD in reading, he likely has a normal IQ, but a reading performance that would be in the very low range, even looking like "mentally disabled" in reading, and is not, in fact anywhere near his IQ/ability level. That would not mean that JLM is mentally disabled, though. It would simply mean he has a learning disability that interferes with his ability to process/comprehend written language.

If JLM were actually mentally disabled, with an IQ that was low enough to be in line with his reading performance scores, he would not be in a remedial reading course, most likely. Instead, he would be probably have been in a separate setting for his essential skills classes, including reading/language arts and math. Students who have an IQ this low rarely graduate with a high school diploma. They may be mainstreamed in regular classroom settings for classes like physical education, art, drama, and possibly even science and history, with huge modifications. For people who graduated around 2000, like JLM, the likelihood that a mentally disabled student would be completely mainstreamed in all classes, graduate with a regular high school diploma, and receive an athletic scholarship to a university is extremely unlikely. "Inclusion" or "least-restrictive learning environment" did not become standard until the past 5 years or so in most parts of the South. Terminology may vary from state to state, and possibly even categorizations of where the cut-off is for regular instruction with EC help vs. separate setting mentally disabled instruction, but what I've outlined is a general guideline in public schools.

So what is it I'm saying, in a nutshell? JLM may very well be learning disabled in written language, but the likelihood of his being of low IQ and meeting requirements for being mentally disabled, handicapped, "retarded," or whatever your terminology may be, is extremely slim.

Thank you for your professional insight, which, by the way, has allayed my fears that JM and his team would be able to downplay his culpability for the crimes he committed.

 

[ILOKAL]

Is there not also a consideration, based on intelligence measures, of whether a defendant understands the charges against him and is able to assist in his own defense? Or have I just watched too many cop shows?

Frankly, certain behaviors of JM's remind me of the one person I know who has Asberger's. Social awkwardness, inability to read subtle (or even not-so-subtle) emotive signals and body language, flashes of temper followed by an urgency to make everything all right (fear of "getting into trouble"), lack of understanding of consequences attached to actions, all this is very much like the person I know. What I don't know is whether all these characteristics in the person I know are related to his Asberger's, or simply personality traits that he'd have even if he DIDN'T have the condition. Admittedly I know almost nothing about autism-spectrum disorders, so this is just a casual observation, just me "wondering," so to speak.

An evaluation of a defendant's competency determines if he understands the charges and is able to assist in his own defense. IMO

 

[jbowman55]

Appreciate and respect your thoughts and your sharing. However, having a child with Asperger's I don't find many of the characteristics you mention of your friend to be in keeping with classic Aspergers. It's a delicate topic, no doubt, about discussing criminal pathology as it pertains to specific mental or emotional diagnoses. And so I'm not trying to squelch discourse or fan flames. But I feel have learned a great deal about the Autism spectrum and just needed to share my differing views here. JMO.

I do agree that there are sometimes overlapping traits with a variety of mental and emotional issues (degree being important) as it pertains to crime. I just don't think there has been a proven correlation to the point of making any sort of assumption of diagnosis based on criminal actions. And, like I said, several of the traits you mention of your friend don't fit with typical Asperger's. For example, often there is actually a high or even "gifted" iq with Asp. And an urgency to make things right after a flash of temper is not something I've personally ever heard of regarding Asperger's diagnoses. And those with Asperger's can very often be the most gentle or reserved person in a room, albeit socially awkward perhaps.

I had several links I provided a while back, but don't think I can find them right now- sorry.

Like I said, I know it's a sensitive topic- and it's been debated already quite hotly on these threads already. I won't get into that here, so no one need worry I did want to write a response though. JMO

I very much appreciate your clarification on this. Thank you. I hope everyone who reads my post will note that I did qualify it by saying that I didn't know whether the characteristics I mentioned were related to Asperger's or not, since at this point I cannot delete or edit the post.

I do apologize if anything I said was hurtful. Thank you again.

 

[Soulmagent]

Is there not also a consideration, based on intelligence measures, of whether a defendant understands the charges against him and is able to assist in his own defense? Or have I just watched too many cop shows?

I snipped your post , and messed it up horribly.

I just want to point out here ,jesse had the for thought to request a lawyer at the police station,blocking an interview by LE ,then had the motivation to run off to Texas to prevent farther advancement of the states case.

I doubt he is unable to assist in his own defense, past the part of not being able to refute the evidence.IMVHO

 

[Ollie]

Oh to be' a fly on the wall 'when Camblos talked to JM;wondering what JM admitted and denied. If Camblos cornered him or just let him lie about his involvement . I doubt JM would be forthcoming because Camblos is his lifeline and he can't afford to tell him. DNA doesn't lie. Camblos is probably trying to get him life;he's a smart guy and knows the evidence is piling up for the death penalty. I'm anxious for the show to start.

 

[Paulap]

As a teacher, here's what I know about the education system in relation to IQ and qualifications for different placements in the system. It's been reported by acquaintances that JLM was in remedial reading classes. I do not know the exact nature of the class, or if it has even been verified, but here's what I know about who gets placed where and with what label. (PaulaP, please jump in at any time with facts you know ).

If JLM was labeled as "Learning Disabled" in reading, that means that there was at least a 15 point discrepancy between his numerical IQ score and the score at which he performed in reading. That's where "Exceptional Children" or EC status comes in. If JLM was labeled as EC with SLD in reading, he likely has a normal IQ, but a reading performance that would be in the very low range, even looking like "mentally disabled" in reading, and is not, in fact anywhere near his IQ/ability level. That would not mean that JLM is mentally disabled, though. It would simply mean he has a learning disability that interferes with his ability to process/comprehend written language.

If JLM were actually mentally disabled, with an IQ that was low enough to be in line with his reading performance scores, he would not be in a remedial reading course, most likely. Instead, he would be probably have been in a separate setting for his essential skills classes, including reading/language arts and math. Students who have an IQ this low rarely graduate with a high school diploma. They may be mainstreamed in regular classroom settings for classes like physical education, art, drama, and possibly even science and history, with huge modifications. For people who graduated around 2000, like JLM, the likelihood that a mentally disabled student would be completely mainstreamed in all classes, graduate with a regular high school diploma, and receive an athletic scholarship to a university is extremely unlikely. "Inclusion" or "least-restrictive learning environment" did not become standard until the past 5 years or so in most parts of the South. Terminology may vary from state to state, and possibly even categorizations of where the cut-off is for regular instruction with EC help vs. separate setting mentally disabled instruction, but what I've outlined is a general guideline in public schools.

So what is it I'm saying, in a nutshell? JLM may very well be learning disabled in written language, but the likelihood of his being of low IQ and meeting requirements for being mentally disabled, handicapped, "retarded," or whatever your terminology may be, is extremely slim.

thanks for that post
i concur completely and will maintain that any attempt to label him as "mentally retarded" (as was originally suggested here), will fail - this coming from my interactions over the years with him

 

[jrporter]

As a teacher, here's what I know about the education system in relation to IQ and qualifications for different placements in the system. It's been reported by acquaintances that JLM was in remedial reading classes. I do not know the exact nature of the class, or if it has even been verified, but here's what I know about who gets placed where and with what label. (PaulaP, please jump in at any time with facts you know ).

If JLM was labeled as "Learning Disabled" in reading, that means that there was at least a 15 point discrepancy between his numerical IQ score and the score at which he performed in reading. That's where "Exceptional Children" or EC status comes in. If JLM was labeled as EC with SLD in reading, he likely has a normal IQ, but a reading performance that would be in the very low range, even looking like "mentally disabled" in reading, and is not, in fact anywhere near his IQ/ability level. That would not mean that JLM is mentally disabled, though. It would simply mean he has a learning disability that interferes with his ability to process/comprehend written language.

If JLM were actually mentally disabled, with an IQ that was low enough to be in line with his reading performance scores, he would not be in a remedial reading course, most likely. Instead, he would be probably have been in a separate setting for his essential skills classes, including reading/language arts and math. Students who have an IQ this low rarely graduate with a high school diploma. They may be mainstreamed in regular classroom settings for classes like physical education, art, drama, and possibly even science and history, with huge modifications. For people who graduated around 2000, like JLM, the likelihood that a mentally disabled student would be completely mainstreamed in all classes, graduate with a regular high school diploma, and receive an athletic scholarship to a university is extremely unlikely. "Inclusion" or "least-restrictive learning environment" did not become standard until the past 5 years or so in most parts of the South. Terminology may vary from state to state, and possibly even categorizations of where the cut-off is for regular instruction with EC help vs. separate setting mentally disabled instruction, but what I've outlined is a general guideline in public schools.

So what is it I'm saying, in a nutshell? JLM may very well be learning disabled in written language, but the likelihood of his being of low IQ and meeting requirements for being mentally disabled, handicapped, "retarded," or whatever your terminology may be, is extremely slim.

I too was a career Special Education teacher (currently working part-time in the same Albemarle County school system that LJ attended in one of the same high schools) and would like to share a few thoughts. It was mentioned by an LJ acquaintance that she'd been in an LD class with him in elementary school. If so, it's really hard to know if his "LD-ness" was limited to strictly reading or other areas of academic functioning as well. Some of the delayed/awkward social skills that have been mentioned may also be comorbid with delayed/challenged academic functioning due to LD. Based on what little I know about him, I'm also certain that he is not mentally disabled as in having an IQ that is below 70 in all areas of functioning...

According to Rick Lavoie:

The research indicates that individuals with learning disabilities:
•are more likely to choose socially unacceptable behaviors in social situations
•are less able to solve social problems
•are less likely to predict consequences for their social behavior
•are less likely to adjust to the characteristics of their listeners in discussions or conversations
•are less able to accomplish complex social interactions successfully (i.e.. persuasion, negotiation, resisting peer pressure, giving/accepting criticism, etc.)
•are more likely to be rejected or isolated by their classmates and peers
•are more often the objects of negative and non-supportive statements, criticisms, warnings and negative nonverbal reactions from teachers
•are less adaptable to new social situations
•are more likely to be judged negatively by adults after informal observation
•receive less affection from parents and siblings
•have less tolerance for frustration and failure
•use oral language that is less mature, meaningful or concise
•have difficulty interpreting or inferring the language of others

 

[SteveP]

My younger brother has Down Syndrome, and he knows right from wrong, and he loves everyone. I think JLM's behavior and actions have far more to do with what is missing in his heart than what is missing in his brain. JMO

 

[jbowman55]

Is there not also a consideration, based on intelligence measures, of whether a defendant understands the charges against him and is able to assist in his own defense? Or have I just watched too many cop shows?

I snipped your post , and messed it up horribly.

I just want to point out here ,jesse had the for thought to request a lawyer at the police station,blocking an interview by LE ,then had the motivation to run off to Texas to prevent farther advancement of the states case.

I doubt he is unable to assist in his own defense, past the part of not being able to refute the evidence.IMVHO

I definitely agree that he's able to assist in his own defense, most certainly from what we know about him at this point. Was really just trying to participate in the brainstorming that was going on about what HIS lawyers might try to do, since there have been whispers about an insanity or diminished capacity defense.

Someone mentioned Camblos keeping JM from raising his hand during a past hearing or something? He was going to say something to the judge? I wouldn't put it past either of them to orchestrate things like this that make it appear that JM acts inappropriately and lacks the judgement to act in his own best interests. I think they'll pull any trick in the book if they think it will improve the outcome for JM. ANY trick. Imo.

 

[Ollie]

LATEST. You're looking at "Single Cell Supervision" in the Fairfax Adult Detention Center: this is where Jesse Matthew is right now,per Coy Barefoot on FB yesterday

FYI

 

[MJPeony]

I very much appreciate your clarification on this. Thank you. I hope everyone who reads my post will note that I did qualify it by saying that I didn't know whether the characteristics I mentioned were related to Asperger's or not, since at this point I cannot delete or edit the post.

I do apologize if anything I said was hurtful. Thank you again.

No worries at all. You did graciously admit upfront that you didn't know much about Autism. And it's understandable that misunderstandings are out there about a lot of health issues. As they say, most of us that end up learning about a particular cause or illness have only done so as a direct result of being personally effected somehow . Really, no problem.

 

[human]

There are many famous people with learning disabilities including JFK.

It can be googled.

 

[Cymbaline]

I know the current topic in this thread is about JLM's IQ but I was reading MSM reports about him from September 20th 2014 @ nbc29.com's website and found this part interesting. Georgetown Road in Albemarie County??

On Friday police executed two search warrants in connection with the case at an apartment - condo complex located off Georgetown Road in Albemarle County. One of the search warrants was for Matthew's car, a burnt-orange 1998 Chrysler Coupe. The other was for his apartment in the 100 block of Hessian Hills Way.

Sorry if this has already been discussed and i somehow missed it.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26584327...y-of-person-of-interest-in-hannah-graham-case