JLM: When will charges come in the HG and MH cases?

[ILOKAL]

Oh, I agree it is most likely JLM's DNA on the cigar tip. True, I see your reasoning that the shirt was found prior to MH's remains as a good explanation. However, I am having a hard time believing that there would have been no DNA transfer to her undergarments and her tights/leggings. Not to mention the perp likely carried her to that remote cow pasture, so there would be skin cell transfer as well.

She was exposed to winter elements for three months, and according to a forensic specialist quoted in the source I read said that her clothes would have still been intact after that amount of time and that synthetic fibers like polyester are virtually indestructible; they "last forever". Just seems unlikely that they could find not enough DNA to extract a profile on clothes that he likely had sustained contact with at the time.

I think that the t-shirt is much weaker evidence and am really surprised that LE would not have checked the cigar tip profile with clothes she was wearing instead now instead. At this this stage they could have easily tested for matches on the clothes found with her or the Pantera shirt. Why choose the weakest one in terms of exposure to multiple DNA sources? Further, the tee shirt has a high cotton content to it, and cotton degrades most rapidly of all fibers. It seems they went with the Pantera for some other reason that they will likely have to explain. LE needs more than that Pantera shirt to prove JLM raped and killed MH, IMO.

However, forensic anthropologist Lee Meadows Jantz of the University of Tennessee's so-called "body farm" says that a body discarded for three months would still have its clothing intact– even cotton, though it's the first fabric to degrade. Next in line are silk and leather, but polyester, she says "lasts forever."

-from source at C-ville weekly.

I think perhaps you're forgetting that the Pantera shirt was on that bush less than a day and prior to that it was, most likely, in the possession of JLM for just three weeks, PLUS, it had a blood stain (rich in DNA). So it doesn't matter that the shirt was cotton because it wasn't exposed to the elements and they tested the DNA found in the blood stain. IMO

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Something just struck me as funny. We have spent so much time analyzing diffuse stains and what comprises majority in a shirt, we didn't even notice this...

MH was found clothed or with the remainder of some of her clothes! All media initially reporting state that the body of of a blonde woman was found clothed. We know that the Pantera shirt was not there having been "found" only one month after she disappeared.

This raises all kinds of questions for me, but the first thing is why hasn't LE taken DNA profiles from the clothing at the scene and checked it for matches to the Fairfax FS and JM's cigar tip? That too should match, shouldn't it? Placing someone directly at the scene is far more incriminating and it makes me wonder why they are so preoccupied with the Pantera shirt? I am feeling even more uneasy with all this DNA stuff.

Curiouser and curiouser....

sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/68929/search-ends-devastated-parents-grieve-hunt-killer-intensifies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RFxKfyFUc8

So, I think we have these options:

1) There was no DNA found with the remains;
2) DNA was found with the remains, but doesn't match the DNA on the shirt;
3) DNA was found with the remains, it belongs to JLM, but for some reason LE doesn't want to divulge those details.

Are there any other scenarios that I'm not thinking of?

 

[jbowman55]

Interesting site:

http://whyfiles.org/192forensic_anthro/index.html

Have you all seen this site before? I found it just now when I was looking for a source on whether body farms in the US study the retrieval of "leached" DNA from soil at locations where bodies have decomposed. Also I am wondering if LE ever found the actual site where MH's body lay while it was decomposing. There are sources that some here at WS have referred to in the past that said that exposure to the elements had caused MH's remains to move or shift from their original position.

I'll have to read the site I referenced later when I have time, but it looks informative and interesting.

 

[ILOKAL]

So, I think we have these options:

1) There was no DNA found with the remains;
2) DNA was found with the remains, but doesn't match the DNA on the shirt;
3) DNA was found with the remains, it belongs to JLM, but for some reason LE doesn't want to divulge those details.

Are there any other scenarios that I'm not thinking of?

Actually, as to your #3, allegedly LE didn't want to divulge the unsealed search warrant either. If the only biological samples were on the Pantera shirt, I could see that shirt as a better candidate than, e.g., skin cells. There may not have been any biological samples left on the clothing that was found with the remains. Also, there are a couple of pages from the warrant that have not been published. Those pages may indicate that DNA testing was indeed done on that other clothing. IMO. Then again, since LE has JLM's DNA from the Pantera shirt, they may have set aside any additional testing until such time they feel it is needed (or not). IMO

 

[Charlie Chan]

Just reported on WRIC Channel 8 news out of Richmond: court hearing for JLM in the Hannah Graham case has been pushed back to March 26.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

If the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to MH, as MANY have suggested , there would be no reason to test it against her clothing . . . LE knows it's her clothing.

Now if the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to JLM, which I believe it clearly does, it probably HAS been tested against some of the other clothing, if DNA could be extracted from it. The finding of the Pantera shirt was much closer in time to MH's death with less chance of DNA degradation AND there was blood on it. There may not have been blood or semen on her other clothing.

Except that they may not have had a DNA sample available for MH, and what they had from the shirt was already in the lab and ready. (Athough, when they analyzed the shirt, they probably did have something of MH's to compare in order to take hers out of the mix.) I don't know much about DNA testing, but if there is a mixture, it might save some steps to have the mixture from the shirt compared to the mixture on the cigar butt, IOW, aybe there wouldn't be a need to separate the profiles. I just don't get why LE would go to the trouble of testing the cigar butt when they had the buccal swab of JLM's.

 

[ILOKAL]

Except that they may not have had a DNA sample available for MH, and what they had from the shirt was already in the lab and ready. (Athough, when they analyzed the shirt, they probably did have something of MH's to compare in order to take hers out of the mix.) I don't know much about DNA testing, but if there is a mixture, it might save some steps to have the mixture from the shirt compared to the mixture on the cigar butt, IOW, aybe there wouldn't be a need to separate the profiles. I just don't get why LE would go to the trouble of testing the cigar butt when they had the buccal swab of JLM's.

From what I have read, one of the first things that is done when someone goes missing such as MH, is to get a known DNA sample from, e.g., a toothbrush, hairbrush, etc. to assist in a future identification. So LE would have already had that sample (presumably) when the Pantera shirt was found three weeks later. They would have probably used that sample to identify the shirt as belonging to MH, along with other identifiable information. IMO. I believe DNA mixtures are "separated" in order to formulate individual profiles. As far as LE using the cigar tip that was taken from JLM's wallet to test against MH's shirt and DNA taken from fingernail scrapings of the Fairfax victim rather than using the buccal swab, is because, IMO, they had not yet done the buccal swab on JLM.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

From what I have read, one of the first things that is done when someone goes missing such as MH, is to get a known DNA sample from, e.g., a toothbrush, hairbrush, etc. to assist in a future identification. So LE would have already had that sample (presumably) when the Pantera shirt was found three weeks later. They would have probably used that sample to identify the shirt as belonging to MH, along with other identifiable information. IMO. I believe DNA mixtures are "separated" in order to formulate individual profiles. As far as LE using the cigar tip that was taken from JLM's wallet to test against MH's shirt and DNA taken from fingernail scrapings of the Fairfax victim rather than using the buccal swab, is because, IMO, they had not yet done the buccal swab on JLM.

But with him in custody, what do you think caused LE to go to the additional trouble of testing the cigar butt when they were within hours of getting the buccal swab? I can understand LE's intense desire to move forward on these cases, but this level of anxiety seems unnatural to me if all they wanted was a DNA sample from that butt.

 

[ILOKAL]

But with him in custody, what do you think caused LE to go to the additional trouble of testing the cigar butt when they were within hours of getting the buccal swab? I can understand LE's intense desire to move forward on these cases, but this level of anxiety seems unnatural to me if all they wanted was a DNA sample from that butt.

You've heard the saying . . . . "Never look a gift horse in the mouth . . . . ? That's probably the thought process here. JLM was awaiting extradition back to Virginia and during this wait time, he was in Texas custody. The prudent thing for LE TO do was to test that cigar butt. Absolutely no reason whatsoever to wait until he returns to Virginia. Why take a risk that something might go wrong during his transfer? It certainly wouldn't be the FIRST time! All IMO.

 

[RSC]

Something just struck me as funny. We have spent so much time analyzing diffuse stains and what comprises majority in a shirt, we didn't even notice this...

MH was found clothed or with the remainder of some of her clothes! All media initially reporting state that the body of of a blonde woman was found clothed. We know that the Pantera shirt was not there having been "found" only one month after she disappeared.

This raises all kinds of questions for me, but the first thing is why hasn't LE taken DNA profiles from the clothing at the scene and checked it for matches to the Fairfax FS and JM's cigar tip? That too should match, shouldn't it? Placing someone directly at the scene is far more incriminating and it makes me wonder why they are so preoccupied with the Pantera shirt? I am feeling even more uneasy with all this DNA stuff.

Curiouser and curiouser....

sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/68929/search-ends-devastated-parents-grieve-hunt-killer-intensifies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RFxKfyFUc8

I'm confused by this post. She was wearing the Pantera shirt at the concert. Why wouldn't they be preoccupied with it?

 

[ILOKAL]

Something just struck me as funny. We have spent so much time analyzing diffuse stains and what comprises majority in a shirt, we didn't even notice this...

MH was found clothed or with the remainder of some of her clothes! All media initially reporting state that the body of of a blonde woman was found clothed. We know that the Pantera shirt was not there having been "found" only one month after she disappeared.

This raises all kinds of questions for me, but the first thing is why hasn't LE taken DNA profiles from the clothing at the scene and checked it for matches to the Fairfax FS and JM's cigar tip? That too should match, shouldn't it? Placing someone directly at the scene is far more incriminating and it makes me wonder why they are so preoccupied with the Pantera shirt? I am feeling even more uneasy with all this DNA stuff.

Curiouser and curiouser....

sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/68929/search-ends-devastated-parents-grieve-hunt-killer-intensifies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RFxKfyFUc8

Finding JLM's DNA on MH's clothing that was left/found with the remains, no more or no less incriminates JLM than finding it on the Pantera shirt (that has been identified as the shirt she was wearing the last time she was seen alive). IMO. Or am I missing something in your thought process?

 

[Piaget]

Finding JLM's DNA on MH's clothing that was left/found with the remains, no more or no less incriminates JLM than finding it on the Pantera shirt (that has been identified as the shirt she was wearing the last time she was seen alive). IMO. Or am I missing something in your thought process?

Seems to me that finding JMs DNA on MHs remains would be far more incriminating than finding it on the shirt simply because all kind of stories can be concocted about the shirt's chain of custody. However, is it possible for DNA to retain its integrity on clothing left to weather outside for months? They may not have any DNA (other than Morgan's) from the remains.

 

[ILOKAL]

Seems to me that finding JMs DNA on MHs remains would be far more incriminating than finding it on the shirt simply because all kind of stories can be concocted about the shirt's chain of custody. However, is it possible for DNA to retain its integrity on clothing left to weather outside for months? They may not have any DNA (other than Morgan's) from the remains.

Please re-read the previous posts by Evie and myself. We are speaking about DNA on MH's "clothing" that was found WITH her remains - NOT DNA from the remains themselves. How does the "chain of custody" affect the Pantera shirt? It seems as though JLM's DNA was taken from biological stains on the Pantera shirt that contain his DNA. DNA DOES degrade over time and from the elements, but that doesn't mean the DNA was degraded to the point that it could not be tested.

 

[Piaget]

Please re-read the previous posts by Evie and myself. We are speaking about DNA on MH's "clothing" that was found WITH her remains - NOT DNA from the remains themselves. How does the "chain of custody" affect the Pantera shirt? It seems as though JLM's DNA was taken from biological stains on the Pantera shirt that contain his DNA. DNA DOES degrade over time and from the elements, but that doesn't mean the DNA was degraded to the point that it could not be tested.

Two separate issues: I acknowledge his DNA was found on the Pantera shirt but what's to keep him from claiming he found it on the sidewalk and hung it on the bush, thus contaminating it? And was any foreign DNA found on Morgans remains at all? I was wondering whether foreign DNA on the remains could withstand weathering.

 

[ILOKAL]

Two separate issues: I acknowledge his DNA was found on the Pantera shirt but what's to keep him from claiming he found it on the sidewalk and hung it on the bush, thus contaminating it? And was any foreign DNA found on Morgans remains at all? I was wondering whether foreign DNA on the remains could withstand weathering.

Well let's see. We KNOW blood was found on the Pantera shirt and the foreign DNA from the shirt matched the DNA on the cigar butt tip found in JLM's wallet. The DNA from the cigar tip matches the foreign DNA from the Fairfax victim AND, he is the last person to have been seen with HG who was found dead. He previously raped two college girls. As a juror, what explanation for his blood being on MH's Pantera shirt would you accept, beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

That was how I read it, too-more than one could equal perp and victim

Doesn't there have to be a minimum of four DNA samples on the shirt? MH's, JLM's, the person who found the shirt, and his roommate.

 

[ILOKAL]

Doesn't there have to be a minimum of four DNA samples on the shirt? MH's, JLM's, the person who found the shirt, and his roommate.

I don't know how the shirt was retrieved. Did he recognize it and call LE and wait for them to arrive? I didn't follow the case very closely. In any event, it's not a problem, as LE probably would have requested a buccal swab from the finder (maybe his roommate:thinking so it could be separated from any mixture. Touch DNA (skin cells) aren't deposited every single time we touch something. IMO

 

[CoolJ]

Well let's see. We KNOW blood was found on the Pantera shirt and the foreign DNA from the shirt matched the DNA on the cigar butt tip found in JLM's wallet. The DNA from the cigar tip matches the foreign DNA from the Fairfax victim AND, he is the last person to have been seen with HG who was found dead. He previously raped two college girls. As a juror, what explanation for his blood being on MH's Pantera shirt would you accept, beyond a reasonable doubt?

I think the point is that his DNA on the shirt doesn't necessarily put him in contact with MH. DNA on or with the remains does and therefore makes it much more incriminating. JMO

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I think the point is that his DNA on the shirt doesn't necessarily put him in contact with MH. DNA on or with the remains does and therefore makes it much more incriminating. JMO

JLM may even have had contact with MH that night, but it doesn't mean he murdered her. They need more evidence.

 

[ILOKAL]

I think the point is that his DNA on the shirt doesn't necessarily put him in contact with MH. DNA on or with the remains does and therefore makes it much more incriminating. JMO

On the REMAINS themselves, OBVIOUSLY! But that's not what I've been talking about because there's no debate if it's on the REMAINS - it's a given! On the other hand, on her clothes at the dump site or on the Pantera shirt - same degree of incrimination/or not. IMO