JLM: When will charges come in the HG and MH cases?

[Concerned Mama]

I didn't read the article the same way you did. My understanding is that the medical examiner's office knows how Hannah died, but will only release that it was a homicide. They are cooperating with authorities and not releasing details to the public. The article in the Washington Post implies that they simply aren't telling what they know:

"Frank Battle, an administrator in the medical examiner’s office, said Tuesday morning that investigators have made a determination of how Graham died but withheld the information at the request of law enforcement agencies."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...10156c-6f37-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html

 

[bestill]

Do you think the release of this info precedes charges for JM coming soon? Thinking that medical examiners determining it was homicide will get this moving. Just my musings.

 

[SteveP]

I didn't read the article the same way you did. My understanding is that the medical examiner's office knows how Hannah died, but will only release that it was a homicide. They are cooperating with authorities and not releasing details to the public. The article in the Washington Post implies that they simply aren't telling what they know:

"Frank Battle, an administrator in the medical examiner’s office, said Tuesday morning that investigators have made a determination of how Graham died but withheld the information at the request of law enforcement agencies."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...10156c-6f37-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html

That makes a huge amount of difference. I had only seen Parker Slaybaugh's tweet, and nothing else. Thanks for the article.

 

[Charlie Chan]

I don't think that the ME can say "violent homocide" unless there is irrefutable evidence that this person was murdered, and violently. My thoughts (hate to say it...) go to bashed skull, snapped bones, etc. Things that are evident on the remains that would not have have happened "naturally" during the process of decay. Sorry to be kind of graphic here.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Hmmmm.....

www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Page 21
Homicide—‘‘occurs when death results from...’’ an injury or poisoning or from ‘‘...a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.’’

One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and discussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

 

[bestill]

Restraints could have been found too.

 

[4 Free Speech]

November 18, 2014 7:58PM

http://www.eastoregonian.com/virgini...97d1cbc8464653

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) — A University of Virginia student whose disappearance sparked a monthlong search died from "homicidal violence" but the exact cause is unknown, authorities said Tuesday.

The Albemarle County Police Department outlined the findings from the Virginia medical examiner's office in the death of 18-year-old Hannah Graham but said a final autopsy report has not been issued.

 

[4 Free Speech]

Hmmmm.....

www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Page 21
Homicide—‘‘occurs when death results from...’’ an injury or poisoning or from ‘‘...a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death. Intent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide.’’

One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and discussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

I noticed vomiting verbiage also somewhere.. I have to find that link. I thought it was odd.

 

[bestill]

I noticed the vomiting verbiage also....

I wonder if that is what was discovered in JM's car. If it was, could also show if she were drugged. I've thought that since the search warrants, could have also been on his clothes in his home.

 

[Charlie Chan]

Frankly, it is devolving into some weird circus side show with LE and the Media. It does not come across as professional, IMO.

I do not understand how they came up with homicide for Manner of Death. According to national guidelines, they need "clear and convincing evidence" (not circumstantial) given someone will go to prison or worse. They cannot determine what caused her death; they have no toxicology report, yet they know it is homicide?

Furthermore, "Homicide" is a neutral term in the ME's lexicon. It is just crazy they are adding the "violent" label. Do they not want this to go to trial? I am not sure what LE is up to, but it may just blow up in their face.

Here is a national standard for ME in determining Manner of Death:

A guide for the manner of death classification

Respectfully, "homicide" is NOT a neutral term. Perhaps neutral in the sense that a person was murdered in one of *advertiser censored* number of ways, but not neutral in the fact that someone was murdered. Right?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Respectfully, "homicide" is NOT a neutral term. Perhaps neutral in the sense that a person was murdered in one of *advertiser censored* number of ways, but not neutral in the fact that someone was murdered. Right?

My understanding is that intent to cause death is not required for homicide.

 

[Charlie Chan]

My understanding is that intent to cause death is not required for homicide.

Respectfully, I think that is why there is the "manslaughter" category. I am fairly certain that homicide is intent to cause. As in "justifiable homicide". Here, we have a justifiable intent to cause death. IDK but my sister's best friend is a detective in Virginia (not in the C'ville area) and she supported this. BUT...she is not an attorney or judge, but I lend credence to what she says. But, no matter. The trial will conclude with a verdict in Fairfax and X2 in C'ville.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I didn't read the article the same way you did. My understanding is that the medical examiner's office knows how Hannah died, but will only release that it was a homicide. They are cooperating with authorities and not releasing details to the public. The article in the Washington Post implies that they simply aren't telling what they know:

"Frank Battle, an administrator in the medical examiner’s office, said Tuesday morning that investigators have made a determination of how Graham died but withheld the information at the request of law enforcement agencies."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...10156c-6f37-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html

From the link: “The findings were not unexpected,” Camblos said, noting that he was informed of the cause of death by the Albemarle prosecutor’s office.


Wonder if they told him everything they found?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Respectfully, I think that is why there is the "manslaughter" category. I am fairly certain that homicide is intent to cause. As in "justifiable homicide". Here, we have a justifiable intent to cause death. IDK but my sister's best friend is a detective in Virginia (not in the C'ville area) and she supported this. BUT...she is not an attorney or judge, but I lend credence to what she says. But, no matter. The trial will conclude with a verdict in Fairfax and X2 in C'ville.

And then there's "negligent homocide".

 

[caveat]

Respectfully, "homicide" is NOT a neutral term. Perhaps neutral in the sense that a person was murdered in one of *advertiser censored* number of ways, but not neutral in the fact that someone was murdered. Right?

I'm not Conductor71, so you weren't replying to me, but the PDF guide for medical examiners does note it as a neutral term within a certain context:

"It is to be emphasized that the classification of Homicide for the purposes of death certification is a 'neutral' term and neither indicates nor implies criminal intent, which remains a determination within the province of legal processes." (pg. 6, https://netforum.avectra.com/temp/ClientImages/NAME/38c0f1d2-11ec-45c7-80ca-ff872d0b22bc.pdf)

If I understand correctly, not all homicides would be crimes. Killing someone in self-defense, for example, would qualify as a homicide as the manner of death, right? So I think the comment about neutrality is more about it being legally or criminally neutral – simply knowing one person killed another does not necessarily tell us that it is murder.

(Of course I hope everyone realizes I am not saying that we have such ambiguity in this particular case – I was strictly speaking about the above discussion of the general term.)

 

[SolVol]

I can think of one way the ME could determine a cause of death as homicide and MO from mere bones, that would possibly even relate Hannah Graham's murder to both Morgan Harrington's and Cassandra Morton's murders.

All three remains were discovered with their skulls separated from the other bones. If this is not a naturally occurring phenomenon as remains become skeletal, and if there are hack marks on the neck bones, the three deaths could be caused by beheadings or the attacks included beheading post-mortem.

Additionally, all three of women's remains were found near creeks.

 

[Conductor71]

Respectfully, I think that is why there is the "manslaughter" category. I am fairly certain that homicide is intent to cause. As in "justifiable homicide". Here, we have a justifiable intent to cause death. IDK but my sister's best friend is a detective in Virginia (not in the C'ville area) and she supported this. BUT...she is not an attorney or judge, but I lend credence to what she says. But, no matter. The trial will conclude with a verdict in Fairfax and X2 in C'ville.

Homicide is neutral as a manner of death classification. It means that the ME has determined that the cause of death is directly attributable to another person. For example, a doctor assisted would be classified as a homicide in a state with no right to die laws. The idea of intent and degree of involvement, or criminal aspects, are legal constructs and range from manslaughter to murder. Therefore, descriptors like "violent" have no absolutely place in the ME's final ruling or finding. It is simply added to be inflammatory IMO. I don't read tons of autopsies but have never, ever seen a manner of death come with an adjective like that. They simply do not qualify any manner of death that way. We don't have violent or pleasant suicides or peaceful accidents.

I added a link out earlier to a good standard for ME in determining Manner of Death, but will resource it here too. See page 6 for a succinct definition of homicide. I think the points on same page at "E" have particular relevance in this case.

A Guide for manner of death classification

 

[hambirg]

Homicide is neutral as a manner of death classification. It means that the ME has determined that the cause of death is directly attributable to another person. For example, a doctor assisted would be classified as a homicide in a state with no right to die laws. The idea of intent and degree of involvement, or criminal aspects, are legal constructs and range from manslaughter to murder. Therefore, descriptors like "violent" have no absolutely place in the ME's final ruling or finding. It is simply added to be inflammatory IMO. I don't read tons of autopsies but have never, ever seen a manner of death come with an adjective like that. They simply do not qualify any manner of death that way. We don't have violent or pleasant suicides or peaceful accidents.

I added a link out earlier to a good standard for ME in determining Manner of Death, but will resource it here too. See page 6 for a succinct definition of homicide. I think the points on same page at "E" have particular relevance in this case.

A Guide for manner of death classification

I think you are reading too much into it. Homicide, suicide and accident are all statistically counted as violent death.

 

[Conductor71]

I didn't read the article the same way you did. My understanding is that the medical examiner's office knows how Hannah died, but will only release that it was a homicide. They are cooperating with authorities and not releasing details to the public. The article in the Washington Post implies that they simply aren't telling what they know:

"Frank Battle, an administrator in the medical examiner’s office, said Tuesday morning that investigators have made a determination of how Graham died but withheld the information at the request of law enforcement agencies."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...10156c-6f37-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html[/Q


My understanding is that the medical examiner's office knows how Hannah died,

BBM

How Hannah died is being confused with what caused her death IMO. HOW relates to the circumstances surrounding her death or the manner; and cause is WHAT the physiological mechanism that ended her life.

I gather everyone is inferring that LE knows the cause of death from the second paragraph? I can see your interpretation now, but this paragraph is misleading and ambiguous at best, so I am sticking with with the really clear info that has been established repeatedly in this article. LE has ruled her manner of death a homicide, but the cause of death is "undetermined".


The chief medical examiner’s office in Richmond determined the cause of Graham’s death to be “homicidal violence” but did not specify what killed her. It is the first time that Graham’s death has officially been called a homicide.



First, "homicidal violence" cannot be a cause of death. Again the homicidal violence refers to the manner or HOW she died. I think we are taking the article writer's point of view and seeing it as the ME's words. The author of the article is saying they seem to know more than they are letting on; this assumes they know what killed her but are not specifying what that is.

I see it as something else entirely for several reasons but the clearest one is that if they knew her cause of death or needed more testing or time to determine it would have a "pending" status, not be ruled as "undetermined".

From Virginia Dept of Health's ME FAQ page:

What does it mean when a case “pending”? Death certificates are deemed to be pending when laboratory studies or investigations are needed to determine the cause and manner of death. Unfortunately, a time frame for when a specific case will be completed cannot be established. The circumstances of cases differ and each case is handled independently. Depending on circumstances, some cases can take more than 12 weeks to complete.

http://www.vdh.state.va.us/medExam/FriendsFamilyFAQ.htm

They most likely have a time limit on the pending status; especially if they want to bring the case to trial. I could be wrong on all this, and I see how you have interpreted it differently, I just am not convinced based on this particular article.

 

[simlyme]

Here is an article about an older case describing why it was called homicidal violence. Sounds very similar to Hannahs case, evidentally they had found more at the discovery site?
http://www.kcby.com/news/local/125604798.html
From article
Medical Examiner James Olson says Freeman's body was almost completely skeletonized and there were no usable internal organs left to evaluate.

He could not determine a cause of death due to decomposition but felt most comfortable describing it as homicidal violence of an undetermined type.

"I chose to call it homicidal violence of an undetermined type because of the circumstances. In other words, finding other items of her apparel, one of which had blood on it. You basically have the disappearance of this healthy, young woman and she's dumped.