Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Smelly Squirrel]

As to why she chose to stab first, I think it's because this was an anger killing and she wanted to be able to watch him in terror, and because we know (outside of the jury we know) she has shown some facility with stabbing things, his car tires. She's not a master planner of murder. She didn't do it because she's a paid, experienced hitman. She did it sloppily and out of anger. Smart would have been to shoot first and only shoot, but she's not smart as we can see by how poorly it was planned from the get go. Come on, she stole the gun a week earlier, from her own house. She's not smart. Stabbing is more personal than shooting.

 

[molly333]

The ME is not giving "only his opinion." The ME is giving his VERY educated VERY experienced, VERY knowledgeable, VERY credible "opinion".

No other ME's testified here because there was no way for another ME to argue the ME's findings.

The prosecution went with shot last because there is an OVERWHELMING amount of evidence which says he was shot last. You just happen to be ignoring it.

I'm really not ignoring anything. And, as to the very, very, very of the ME--think of the Cynthia Sommers case. The ME got it wrong. It is his opinion, nothing else. And, yes his opinion can be reasonably challenged.

Travis received two serious knife wounds that caused him to bleed out--jugular and vena cava. If he was shot first, and one or both of those happened in quick succession, there would be little bleeding into the head from the gunshot wound because there would be no blood. No time for the development of hematomas and brain swelling. There was also too much decomposition to make an adequate determination.

Jodi flooded the bathroom so that she could move Travis' body. There was also a major fight happening there. There was also a clean up going on. She didn't just shoot him and leave. She could have been there as long as 3 hours messing with the crime scene. So I wouldn't hang my case on the position of a bullet casing.

One could come to other conclusions based on the evidence and have just as much chance of being right.

I don't think any Jury member should be intimidated by experts. I think they should be listened to, for sure, and then the totality of the evidence weighed by 12 people with common sense.

 

[Applejack]

@molly333

I agree about the bullet. From her responses on Thurs, and given the fact that she removed other key pieces of evidence from the scene, I get the feeling she probably had picked it up and it fell back in the blood accidentally. Not everything she says is a lie. I think this is one of the few times she's being honest, but only because she thinks it's to her benefit.

But in my opinion it's not. She even said to police that she thinks she'd have to shoot him. In her second story about The Ninjas, Travis was also shot first. I think this was her way to get an advantage over him and allowed her to do what she did. In my opinion, it further supports preemeditation.

I have only seen the full series of photos from the cam in small thumbnail format so maybe I'm wrong, but the last image of his face, it appears the flash was fired whereas in the rest the flash was not fired. Anyone know if this has been brought up in trial?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

@molly333

I agree about the bullet. From her responses on Thurs, and given the fact that she removed other key pieces of evidence from the scene, I get the feeling she probably had picked it up and it fell back in the blood accidentally. Not everything she says is a lie. I think this is one of the few times she's being honest, but only because she thinks it's to her benefit.

But in my opinion it's not. She even said to police that she thinks she'd have to shoot him. In her second story about The Ninjas, Travis was also shot first. I think this was her way to get an advantage over him and allowed her to do what she did. In my opinion, it further supports preemeditation.

I have only seen the full series of photos from the cam in small thumbnail format so maybe I'm wrong, but the last image of his face, it appears the flash was fired whereas in the rest the flash was not fired. Anyone know if this has been brought up in trial?

If she picked up the casing, why was it spotless other than the bottom portion where it landed? Why no blood or even fingerprints?

 

[Texas Lady]

I also feel she shot him last because there was a chance that the shot could have killed him 1st and she would not have enjoyed that as much. She wanted him to suffer. She is so evil she enjoyed it. Just like she is enjoying the trial now. VERY EVIL WOMAN

 

[danzn16]

I'm really not ignoring anything. And, as to the very, very, very of the ME--think of the Cynthia Sommers case. The ME got it wrong. It is his opinion, nothing else. And, yes his opinion can be reasonably challenged.

Travis received two serious knife wounds that caused him to bleed out--jugular and vena cava. If he was shot first, and one or both of those happened in quick succession, there would be little bleeding into the head from the gunshot wound because there would be no blood. No time for the development of hematomas and brain swelling. There was also too much decomposition to make an adequate determination.

Jodi flooded the bathroom so that she could move Travis' body. There was also a major fight happening there. There was also a clean up going on. She didn't just shoot him and leave. She could have been there as long as 3 hours messing with the crime scene. So I wouldn't hang my case on the position of a bullet casing.

One could come to other conclusions based on the evidence and have just as much chance of being right.

I don't think any Jury member should be intimidated by experts. I think they should be listened to, for sure, and then the totality of the evidence weighed by 12 people with common sense.

BBM
Just addressing the bold:

But you don't need the brain to determine amount of blood that would have pooled in the cranial cavity from a gun shot wound. The brain would only be needed to determine trajectory of the bullet to determine what actual brain structures where damaged and the damage in distant places in the brain. But not needed for blood. So I still can't think of another scenario that would offer the explanation of little blood in the cranial cavity.

 

[danzn16]

Also just because a medical examiner in another case made a mistake doesn't mean that they all do. I looked up the Cynthia Sommer case and her husband was pronounced dead from natural causes from an arrhythmia. If the medical examiner didn't know to suspect poisoning then he wouldn't have known to run toxicology reports. Many autopsies only have physical findings and don't run toxicology. This case is entirely different from all physical findings which is more straight forward IMO.

 

[ForensicFemme]

Sommer was released, wasn't she? Was it a new trial? Something about ineffective assistance of council. Can't remember, obviously !

 

[molly333]

Cynthia Sommers was accused of poisoning her husband with arsenic. The defense brought in the world's expert on arsenic poisoning and he said that he knew it was a contamination problem in the lab because the samples shouldn't look like that. He said you would expect to see the same amount of arsenic in all the organs, not twice as much in the heart as in the liver, for instance. He also said the symptoms were not right.

Now this expert had been first retained by the State but when he disagreed with them, they dropped him, and the defense picked him up. In this case, the Jury sided with the ME over the expert and found her guilty. But, IIRC, the Judge ordered new testing of samples with another lab and lo and behold no arsenic was found at all. Her husband did not die of arsenic poisoning. It was lab contamination just like the expert said. So long story short, she was released from prison. Here's an example of where the Jury should not have blindly agreed with the ME.

In Jodi's case, like I said, I don't think it matters whether gun or knife first because I feel the prosecution has already proven premeditation. I just hope the Jury doesn't get hung up on it which is why I hope the Prosecutor points out to them that it doesn't matter and why. If anyone believes I am saying that gun first means she wins her case, that is not my feeling about it all. But, the Jury has to be confident in their decision, and, as we all know, this is a complicated case.

 

[molly333]

BBM
Just addressing the bold:

But you don't need the brain to determine amount of blood that would have pooled in the cranial cavity from a gun shot wound. The brain would only be needed to determine trajectory of the bullet to determine what actual brain structures where damaged and the damage in distant places in the brain. But not needed for blood. So I still can't think of another scenario that would offer the explanation of little blood in the cranial cavity.

That's true, but you know, she killed him so fast with some very serious wounds--you'd go into shock, which slows down any blood flow, and then bleed out very quickly from the wound sites.

I just can't see her attacking him with a knife first and I also can't see her winning that fight unless she got very lucky with the first blow. He should have been able to disarm her or kick her across the room or something unless she got very lucky. And, what premeditated killer wants to rely on luck. Just thinking it out ahead of time, she would realize that--which is why she brought the gun with her, imo.

But, thankfully, I hope it won't be important to the outcome of this case.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

My biggest question is about the roommate(s).

How many roommates does he have?
Where were they the 5 days TA stuffed in the shower? I know that they could not have been there, but I've heard little about his roommate.

 

[Nancy_Drew]

To me, the fact that she left the camera behind is so crazy when considering the other attempts she made to cover her crime. :waitasec:

Didn't someone on here just say that they heard that all the pictures had been deleted, and the ones that we have seen are ones that they were able to recover?

If so, Jodi probably thought they were deleted and hoped by leaving the memory card in the camera when she threw it in the wash would ruin the memory card permanently.

But luckily the water didn't damage the memory card, and they were able to recover them.

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Did they say how big the knife was? just curious. Thanks

I think I heard them say aprox 5 1/2 in....

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Did they say how big the knife was? just curious. Thanks

I just found this quote on CNN, maybe this is where I heard 5 1/2 in;

"DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, the body was partially decomposed, and that`s a very tedious autopsy when you have 27 stab wounds, 29 stab wounds, each wound you have to measure the length, the width. They did determine that the knife had one blunt edge and one sharp edge.

It`s probably something like a butcher knife because the deepest wound was about 5 1/2 inches long. The width of the blade was at least an inch, an inch and a quarter. So it was probably a butcher knife that was used."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1301/02/ng.01.html

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

My biggest question is about the roommate(s).

How many roommates does he have?
Where were they the 5 days TA stuffed in the shower? I know that they could not have been there, but I've heard little about his roommate.

The police report says there were two roommates, they came and went throughout the following days none the wiser. They noticed a couple of things out of place, but they figured he was on a trip, as he often is, maybe Cancun. One roommate said he didn't smell anything until Monday the day he was found. It is weird though. They must feel freaked about it now.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

The police report says there were two roommates, they came and went throughout the following days none the wiser. They noticed a couple of things out of place, but they figured he was on a trip, as he often is, maybe Cancun. One roommate said he didn't smell anything until Monday the day he was found. It is weird though. They must feel freaked about it now.

Yea, I would be freaked out about it. I wouldn't be able to go back to that house. Thanks for the infos.

 

[danzn16]

That's true, but you know, she killed him so fast with some very serious wounds--you'd go into shock, which slows down any blood flow, and then bleed out very quickly from the wound sites.

I just can't see her attacking him with a knife first and I also can't see her winning that fight unless she got very lucky with the first blow. He should have been able to disarm her or kick her across the room or something unless she got very lucky. And, what premeditated killer wants to rely on luck. Just thinking it out ahead of time, she would realize that--which is why she brought the gun with her, imo.

But, thankfully, I hope it won't be important to the outcome of this case.

BBM
I'm not sure what you mean by shock slowing down blood flow and then making you bleed quickly?

You don't go into shock until you've lost so much blood that you can't sustain your blood pressure and can't perfuse your organs. This requires loss of a great deal of blood. Your heart beats rapidly to try to compensate and your blood vessels dilate to try to allow as much blood to flow to important area as possible. So TA would bleed even more because of being in hemorrhagic shock. So therefore if TA was shot first and then sustained multiple knife wounds and bled to the point he went into shock, all wounds would have bled extensively, including that head wound. But why is there little blood in the cranial cavity? Unless he was stabbed multiple times first including his SVC which is the largest vein the body, and his throat slit from ear to ear which would lead to rapid blood loss and shock quickly. And if then a shot to the head, if there was so little blood in the circulation at that time then that would be the only possible scientific explanation for he fact that there is little blood in his cranial cavity. Even if a person never goes into shock there is much blood loss into a gunshot wound of the head. There is no other explanation. He has a closed head wound, it can't leak out, it can't be cleaned up. The untouched evidence at the scene of the bullet casing also coincides with this chain of events.

I think the chain of events is important because trying to shoot someone first but having to resort to stabbing could be viewed as at least shooting was more humane. And it gives more to the self defense view. Stabbing someone first is so unbelievably horrible and then even after slicing someone from ear to ear you come back and shoot them just to ensure they are dead is evil. No self defense could be claimed here. No doubt like the other chain of events could cause

 

[molly333]

I think the chain of events is important because trying to shoot someone first but having to resort to stabbing could be viewed as at least shooting was more humane. And it gives more to the self defense view. Stabbing someone first is so unbelievably horrible and then even after slicing someone from ear to ear you come back and shoot them just to ensure they are dead is evil. No self defense could be claimed here. No doubt like the other chain of events could cause

I think this is what the prosecution was originally thinking, too. It is not the case, imo. The prosecution has so thoroughly proven premeditation and Jodi's account of self defense is so ridiculous that there is no way this is an issue, imo.

But, Juan pointed out to her, so you shot him, he's on the ground now, when you roll over to the left, why not leave and get help? Taking one step beyond disabling him is no longer justified. But, then it all gets foggy, you know? The Jury is not going to buy it imo.

If she had just left after the gunshot wound to the head, then she might have a case for self defense.

But she can't do that if she wants him dead.

I'm not sure what you mean by shock slowing down blood flow and then making you bleed quickly

What I mean is he goes into shock from the gunshot wound immediately.

Circulatory shock, commonly known simply as shock, is a life-threatening medical condition that occurs due to inadequate substrate for aerobic cellular respiration.[1] In the early stages this is generally an inadequate tissue level of oxygen.[2]

The typical signs of shock are low blood pressure, a rapid heartbeat and signs of poor end-organ perfusion or "decompensation/peripheral shut down" (such as low urine output, confusion or loss of consciousness). There are times that a person's blood pressure may remain stable, but may still be in circulatory shock, so it is not always a sign.[3]--Wikipedia

So this is reason number one why bloodfow into the brain is slowed down.

Then she cuts the jugular, SVC, and carotid artery in rapid succession. She exsanguinated him.

There is no time for brain swelling, hemotoma, and his circulation is first compromised by shock, then by bleeding out of major wounds, and quickly thereafter stopped altogether.

This is not just my opinion. This is the opinion of another medical doctor who opined on the case.

 

[molly333]

Just think about it. Get him into the shower. A gunshot wound to the head. And, leave.

No mess to clean up, just a few swipes of the dustcloth, one laundry--and leave.

No one knows you were there. No pings on the cell phone. No gas station receipts, no witnesses to your car or your blonde head.

This was almost the perfect crime.

 

[danzn16]

I think this is what the prosecution was originally thinking, too. It is not the case, imo. The prosecution has so thoroughly proven premeditation and Jodi's account of self defense is so ridiculous that there is no way this is an issue, imo.

But, Juan pointed out to her, so you shot him, he's on the ground now, when you roll over to the left, why not leave and get help? Taking one step beyond disabling him is no longer justified. But, then it all gets foggy, you know? The Jury is not going to buy it imo.

If she had just left after the gunshot wound to the head, then she might have a case for self defense.

But she can't do that if she wants him dead.



What I mean is he goes into shock from the gunshot wound immediately.

Circulatory shock, commonly known simply as shock, is a life-threatening medical condition that occurs due to inadequate substrate for aerobic cellular respiration.[1] In the early stages this is generally an inadequate tissue level of oxygen.[2]

The typical signs of shock are low blood pressure, a rapid heartbeat and signs of poor end-organ perfusion or "decompensation/peripheral shut down" (such as low urine output, confusion or loss of consciousness). There are times that a person's blood pressure may remain stable, but may still be in circulatory shock, so it is not always a sign.[3]--Wikipedia

So this is reason number one why bloodfow into the brain is slowed down.

Then she cuts the jugular, SVC, and carotid artery in rapid succession. She exsanguinated him.

There is no time for brain swelling, hemotoma, and his circulation is first compromised by shock, then by bleeding out of major wounds, and quickly thereafter stopped altogether.

This is not just my opinion. This is the opinion of another medical doctor who opined on the case.

I explained each step of hemorrhagic shock (also known as circulatory shock) in my previous post. The blood flow to the brain is not "slowed" however in shock. It is because there is not enough blood in the body for it to function and provide oxygen to structures etc which is the reason why you are in shock and therefore the reason why blood cant perfuse the brain. If he was shot first he would not be in shock immediately. It takes time. Head injuries rarely result in hemorrhagic shock, the cranial cavity is too small of an area to lose enough blood for this. If that much blood is being lost into the cranial cavity then the victim will die before they enter hemorrhagic shock from herniation of the brain out of the bottom of the skull. Hemorrhagic shock usually is from internal bleeding in the chest, abdomen, or pelvis or from broken bones that result in internal bleeding. If he was shot in the head you can't just automatically enter shock and not bleed from your wound, it's absolutely medically not possible. However you can sustain internal bleeding in your body cavities or bleed outside of your body that results in such blood loss that you enter hemorrhagic shock and then a resulting injury to the head would result in little bleeding into the cranial cavity because he is in shock from the blood loss and there is not enough blood in the body to perfuse the brain and other organs and therefore not enough blood is in the brain and face for blood to pool in the cranial cavity. I hope I made the medical consequences of shock clear as they can be confusing. It takes about a third of your total blood capacity's loss to enter shock. And half is fatal. A cut from ear to ear would result in loss of half to all of his blood in a matter of minutes with earlier loss of consciousness. A gun shot is deadly due to critical structure damage in the brain, not from loss of blood and the evidence on autopsy would coincide with that, which it does not in this case.