Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[wilsodh]

I respectfully disagree. He has vast medical knowledge and also has hands on experience about all parts of the body including the brain throughtout his long career as a ME. Plus out of over 6,000 autopsies at the time this happened I am sure many of them were gunshot wounds to the brain.

Then why arent they refuting it if its so easy to do? We have heard of no pathologist being on the defense witness list.

I do not agree. If the casing was kicked around in that bloody bathroom it would have traces of blood all over it and even inside the empty casing cylinder instead of only underneath where it landed in the already spilled blood. The blood would continue to congeal after the casing landed there.

Nothing is over-weighed in a criminal murder cases. It was brought forth for a reason because it is evidence and the reason is it substantiates the gun shot was fired last and it backs up Dr. Horn's opinion which he has never waivered on.

The jury will know what it means when a casing is completely clean except the backside of it where it rested in the blood pool. Its really not complex to understand the casing/blood in this case. They dont live in caves nor are they from Pinellas Co. Florida either.

Good discussion!

I'm not sure on what basis you would argue that Dr. Horn is well founded in his view that damage to the brain's frontal lobes would be immediately incapacitating. He may be experienced examining dead bodies and determining cause of death, but he probably had little or no professional experience on effects of injuries on the living beyond basic medical training. Of course a devastating throat slash or a cut in the heart's major vein will have certain predictable results. But a brain injury is quite different. His speculation about Travis being immediately incapacitated directly contradicts brain injury/gunshot wound experts I quoted in post #272 above. He is simply out of his element with that particular testimony. And I agree, the defense is making a big mistake by not calling this out and refuting Horn's speculation with an expert witness on gunshot wounds and brain injury.

I got a sense that Horn was not entirely comfortable with Martinez. Clearly the prosecution is keen on the gunshot last scenario, as it makes Jodi a liar once again. I smell pressure and a certain lack of impartiality.

I think you are right. Most jurors will probably consider the shell casing as proof that the gunshot came last. I would argue this point were I among the jurors. In the end, however, it probably will not be decisive. Even if it were established that Jodi did shoot Travis first, her story still lacks plausibility and doesn't square with the other evidence.

Those horrible, fascinating, timestamped photographs...

Dave

 

[zaza]

I'm glad you asked that because I've been stuck on it. Something had happened to make him sit like that. And where are his hands/arms in that picture? It looks like they're over his head. I also agree with people that think he knew something bad was happening in the picture of him staring straight at the camera.
I'm thankful the pictures were recovered but I feel sad for his family having to see them. There are so many questions that must haunt them.

I disagree that he knew anything was coming when the last two photos of TA were taken of him sitting on the floor of the shower. I've thought about this aspect quite a lot and took a long time examining the photos of him sitting on the bottom of that stall. If you notice, the portrait of TA’s face where he is looking straight into the lens with water dripping down his face, the time stamp is 5:29:20 – we see his face, which is turned to the right, the white tile behind him, his shoulder and a portion of his arm appears to be extended in front of him. He’s in a very relaxed pose. This photo is the first one taken with him actually sitting on the shower stall floor because if you look at the next photo, taken 70 seconds later at 5:30:30, his right shoulder and arm are in the same position except now we can see that his arm is resting on his knee. His body language is still presenting a very relaxed stance even though he’s pretty well squeezed into the base of that shower stall. He’s got his right leg crossed over his left – a position that would be very difficult to immediately get up from, and he probably got that way because it was the only way he could comfortably fit in a sitting position on the floor of the shower. I doubt he would have fallen or been ordered by JA into that position with one leg crossing over the other.

Having been a portrait photographer in one my past incarnations, I can tell you that it is an old trick, so to speak, to pose a client with the arm up, extended forward and head turned to the side and also leaning a bit forward in order to create a more casual posture and to eliminate double chin effects. You never want to take a head shot with the body posed straight on, you always want to have it turned to the side for definition and interest. There are all kinds of little posing tricks that help to minimize the client’s less flattering traits (like a double chin or a big nose, etc.) and by the same token, help to accentuate and enhance the better or more beautifying traits. I’ve posed many clients in this fashion but usually while they were seated in a chair and I used a prop for their arm to lean on. So, I think the pose was part of her ploy and it looks to me like TA was relaxed and fairly comfortable in that position until she attacked, which was immediately following this last photo - 44 secs later, according to the time-stamp, when the next photo shows the ceiling of the bathroom.

 

[sharkeyes]

FWIW: I think Jodi began stabbing Travis in the back (most likely while he was at or near the sink); he turned to face her and defend himself, and that's when she stabbed him in the chest; he tried to get away, ended up collapsing, and that's when she slit his throat, dragged him to the shower, and shot him.:twocents:

 

[zaza]

Good discussion!

I'm not sure on what basis you would argue that Dr. Horn is well founded in his view that damage to the brain's frontal lobes would be immediately incapacitating. He may be experienced examining dead bodies and determining cause of death, but he probably had little or no professional experience on effects of injuries on the living beyond basic medical training. Of course a devastating throat slash or a cut in the heart's major vein will have certain predictable results. But a brain injury is quite different. His speculation about Travis being immediately incapacitated directly contradicts brain injury/gunshot wound experts I quoted in post #272 above. He is simply out of his element with that particular testimony. And I agree, the defense is making a big mistake by not calling this out and refuting Horn's speculation with an expert witness on gunshot wounds and brain injury.

I got a sense that Horn was not entirely comfortable with Martinez. Clearly the prosecution is keen on the gunshot last scenario, as it makes Jodi a liar once again. I smell pressure and a certain lack of impartiality.

I think you are right. Most jurors will probably consider the shell casing as proof that the gunshot came last. I would argue this point were I among the jurors. In the end, however, it probably will not be decisive. Even if it were established that Jodi did shoot Travis first, her story still lacks plausibility and doesn't square with the other evidence.

Those horrible, fascinating, timestamped photographs...

Dave

Well, I am convinced that it is absolutely probable that the gun was used first and in the bathroom. I think the blood flowed and pooled around and under the casing where it had come to rest. I find this explanation completely plausible now.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

On cross, didn't Horn indicate there could have been bleeding into the sinus and mouth from such a gunshot wound?

EDIT: I knew I saw it somewhere, but had to go back and check. Member Wenwe4 reported the following testimony in post #26 of the thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195462&page=2 (bbm):

Issue of gunshot wound - frontal lobe it went thru it . . . human body - shock to entire brain - not like an arrow or nail - shock to the brain - incapacitated. gunshot went above the mouth - bleeding out the mouth is entirely possible - ended up in left cheek.

Dave

Trajectory of bullet - coming in from right hand side heading left - it may have been deflected by the bone - cheek may not have been trajectory originally

Scalp wounds do bleed. Head wound just above the forehead in a living person would bleed alot. If the wound happened at the time TA was living - we would have seen a lot of blood. Depending on when he was cut and how much blood loss from other wounds.

In abstract sense without all of the blood loss -

Had TA been alive would there been blood in his mouth? Not in the oral cavity lodged in the cheekbone connected by the sinus.

3 specific injury could have led to death. . . stab wound to chest - slit of throat and shot to the head rapidly fatal.

projectile going thru front of brain - lose consciousness and then go down

Slashing of the throat - it is most severe injury - most bleedng from jugular

Most fatal - chest? middle - significant injury it would cause death without med attn but not loss conscious immediate

 

[LambChop]

Good discussion!

I'm not sure on what basis you would argue that Dr. Horn is well founded in his view that damage to the brain's frontal lobes would be immediately incapacitating. He may be experienced examining dead bodies and determining cause of death, but he probably had little or no professional experience on effects of injuries on the living beyond basic medical training. Of course a devastating throat slash or a cut in the heart's major vein will have certain predictable results. But a brain injury is quite different. His speculation about Travis being immediately incapacitated directly contradicts brain injury/gunshot wound experts I quoted in post #272 above. He is simply out of his element with that particular testimony. And I agree, the defense is making a big mistake by not calling this out and refuting Horn's speculation with an expert witness on gunshot wounds and brain injury.

I got a sense that Horn was not entirely comfortable with Martinez. Clearly the prosecution is keen on the gunshot last scenario, as it makes Jodi a liar once again. I smell pressure and a certain lack of impartiality.

I think you are right. Most jurors will probably consider the shell casing as proof that the gunshot came last. I would argue this point were I among the jurors. In the end, however, it probably will not be decisive. Even if it were established that Jodi did shoot Travis first, her story still lacks plausibility and doesn't square with the other evidence.

Those horrible, fascinating, timestamped photographs...

Dave

I don't think it was JM that Dr. Horn was uncomfortable with. He did the autopsy on Travis. Overkill is probably not a strong enough word for what was done to Travis. Dr. Horn is a professional and conducted himself accordingly. Certainly a very sobering report that he was responsible for delivering again to the court and the family of this victim.

As far as Dr. Horn's expertise, he is a doctor. And since we do not know what his previous experience was before becoming an ME I guess we should trust his judgment rather than speculating what his degree of experience involves. My guess is the reason defense has not put on another ME so far is that they would not disagree with Dr. Horn because they know his report is correct. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Well, I am convinced that it is absolutely probable that the gun was used first and in the bathroom. I think the blood flowed and pooled around and under the casing where it had come to rest. I find this explanation completely plausible now.

According to forensics the casing landed on top of the blood after it had clotted. This is what JM was alluding to when he was questioning Jodi. She was quite annoyed at him because basically he was telling her the bullet could not have gotten there until after the blood. Shooting him last would prove it was not self defense. She is lying. You can tell how aggravated she is with JM suggesting the shooting did not come first. She knows it's over if she admits she shot him last. jmo

 

[wilsodh]

Trajectory of bullet - coming in from right hand side heading left - it may have been deflected by the bone - cheek may not have been trajectory originally

Scalp wounds do bleed. Head wound just above the forehead in a living person would bleed alot. If the wound happened at the time TA was living - we would have seen a lot of blood. Depending on when he was cut and how much blood loss from other wounds.

In abstract sense without all of the blood loss -

Had TA been alive would there been blood in his mouth? Not in the oral cavity lodged in the cheekbone connected by the sinus.

3 specific injury could have led to death. . . stab wound to chest - slit of throat and shot to the head rapidly fatal.

projectile going thru front of brain - lose consciousness and then go down

Slashing of the throat - it is most severe injury - most bleedng from jugular

Most fatal - chest? middle - significant injury it would cause death without med attn but not loss conscious immediate

Looks like we both have quotes saying opposite things.

Well, we do know from a quick look at the medical literature (post #272) that there is absolutely no certainty that a small caliber projectile going through the front part of the brain results in loss of consciousness and 'going down'. Dr. Horn's overstatement on this point is troublesome, and leads one to wonder about other elements of his testimony...

Dave

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I addressed this in post #272 above. Gunshot wounds to the frontal lobes are the least dangerous and incapacitating of brain injuries. Dr. Horn is a ME, not an expert in traumatic brain injury. I don't think we can put much weight on his speculation around whether or not Travis was incapacitated by the gunshot. The defense can/should easily refute this with an expert witness.

It's possible to survive and function, but not that likely. And if she did shoot him first and he survived and functioned, why didn't she just shoot him again? Why the knife? Where did it come from?

As for the shell casing, this is also heavily over-weighted imo. Blood coagulates quickly, and the shell casing could have been kicked around at any time after the spilling of blood, even well after Travis was dead, before Jodi left the scene.

Yes, it's possible, but not likely that it got kicked around without getting any blood on the rest of the casing. Her socks were bloody and there was blood all over the floor.

The "shoot first" theory has too many unlikelihoods.

 

[wilsodh]

According to forensics the casing landed on top of the blood after it had clotted.

Again, this proves nothing. Blood coagulates quickly, and the casing could have found its way on top of the blood at any time prior to Jodi leaving the scene.

You can tell how aggravated she is with JM suggesting the shooting did not come first. She knows it's over if she admits she shot him last. jmo

My read of her reaction is that she is aggravated precisely because she knows the shooting came first, because she did shoot first. It irks her that Martinez has concocted a scenario that goes against both the actual facts as well as her carefully planned story to align with the facts as much as possible. She seethes that Martinez' scenario is both wrong and it will help convince the jury that she is lying!

Dave

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I will never understand why she did not take the memory card or the whole camera with her!
I know she still would have been tied to the murder with her bloody palm print,but the camera of all things not to take,just boggles my mind!

She either did not realize deleted files could be recovered (she's not that smart) or she plain forgot or put in the washer by mistake.

How did she get out of the house without leaving footprints or were some found and I just didn't hear about them?

She was wearing socks. She put on shoes.

 

[wilsodh]

It's possible to survive and function, but not that likely. And if she did shoot him first and he survived and functioned, why didn't she just shoot him again? Why the knife? Where did it come from?

On what do you base the first sentence? Again, during her police interrogation tape (Ninja story), she describes the intruder (actually her) shooting Travis in the shower. Then she describes that the gun jammed (true), which is why the intruder didn't finish off Travis and her with the gun (partially true). The gun jammed. This is why the crime scene turned into murderous mayhem that no careful planner would want to have happen.

We'll probably never know where she got the knife, if it was in the vicinity, if she planted it as a back up. She likely knew where it was in advance and didn't have to run to the kitchen for it. My guess is that it was in the bedroom, giving Travis time to get out of the shower and lean over the bathroom sink with a bleeding head wound.

Yes, it's possible, but not likely that it got kicked around without getting any blood on the rest of the casing. Her socks were bloody and there was blood all over the floor.

Oh jeez. We have absolutely no way of knowing about the movements of a single .25 caliber shell casing on the floor during the commotion of a knife murder, moving of a body through the location of the shooting into the shower, and subsequent crime clean alteration by the perpetrator. This is probably the weakest evidence of the crime sequence in the trial!

Dave

 

[zaza]

According to forensics the casing landed on top of the blood after it had clotted. This is what JM was alluding to when he was questioning Jodi. She was quite annoyed at him because basically he was telling her the bullet could not have gotten there until after the blood. Shooting him last would prove it was not self defense. She is lying. You can tell how aggravated she is with JM suggesting the shooting did not come first. She knows it's over if she admits she shot him last. jmo

Yes, I know. I watched as JM cross examined her about it but that deduction may be incorrect. If the casing is light enough it could be lifted by the force of blood flow. Depends on how much blood and the rate of movement or flow. I think it's very possible that the casing was there first, then the blood. So, I guess I disagree with the JM.

 

[molly333]

I think at this point, the confusion helps Jodi more than whether the shot was first or last. At least they didn't put it in the middle!

I think the Jury will conclude that Jodi stole her grandfather's gun and drove to Arizona with it to kill Travis. They will then ask themselves, so why did she use a knife instead?

The discussion will probably proceed much as it has above.

One thing about the set up of that bathroom--You cannot stand in the closet and secretly photograph the shower because they are side by side, and if you stand in the hallway, anyone in the shower will see you. So, I don't think it is possible that she was photographing him secretly.

If she was just holding a knife on him, I do not think she would have been able to control him. I think she shot him in cold blood when she was through with her cat and mouse calvein klein game. And, I think it must have terrified her that a person with a gunshot to the head was still moving and talking.

The only thing to do was shoot again--but the toy gun jammed. And, now we see the unravelling of her plan.

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

My question is, why was he sitting in the shower? People don't sit in showers. IMO, she pulled the gun on him, told him to sit down then shot him in the head. I do not see how she could have possibly stabbed him first.

She was posing him and he was going along with it, obviously. She did not have a gun on him in any of the shower pics. What would be the point of it? She used the picture taking as a ruse to have him relatively defenseless.

 

[LambChop]

Looks like we both have quotes saying opposite things.

Well, we do know from a quick look at the medical literature (post #272) that there is absolutely no certainty that a small caliber projectile going through the front part of the brain results in loss of consciousness and 'going down'. Dr. Horn's overstatement on this point is troublesome, and leads one to wonder about other elements of his testimony...

Dave

I'm curious why anyone would find it troublesome when the ME was the one to do the autopsy. I would think there is a greater chance that it could result in loss of consciousness and falling down based on his report. Problem is, it really does not matter because there was no bruising under the skin at the point where the bullet entered Travis' skull. That would indicate there was no blood there when he was shot proving he was not shot first. Other factors indicate he was shot after he had pretty much bled out.

The only person who would find Dr. Horn's report troublesome would be the defense. I think there is enough in Dr. Horn's report to be believed beyond a reasonable doubt. After all, Dr. Horn was there was he not? In the scheme of things it only matters that the shot was first to Jodi. Everyone seems to think the throat injury plus the 9 stab wounds to the back are enough to prove premeditation. I think the jury gets that part.

Also, Dr. Horn's report was not based on Travis being shot first. His report was that Travis was shot after he had bled out. What the doctor was giving to JM and defense was an opinion based on what he felt would have happened if the bullet tracked through the frontal lobe. I don't believe this was in his report. He was asked for an opinion which he stated was speculation because tracking was not possible due to the decomposition. I would think if the ME "over speculated" Nurmi would have no problem getting an ME to "speculate" further because no one knows what the exact path of the bullet was and how much damage was done. jmo

 

[danzn16]

Wow really you guys? We shouldn't believe anything Dr. Horn says because he is a forensic pathologist and not a traumatic brain injury expert?? LOL. Do you know what it takes to become a forensic pathologist? Most complete an internal medicine residency before they enter a forensic pathology fellowship. That is where they are in the hospital and work with hospitalized patients, including those that have had gun shots. They would be experienced in all types of medical events including trauma. And others complete anatomical and clinical pathology before a forensic pathology residency. Where they learn about the mishaps and diseases that can happen in the human body. Medical examiners see many gun shot wounds. They know anatomy better than many other types of doctors and can tell what has been injured and affected by that injury. I would not doubt their expertise because they are not a "traumatic brain injury expert". What doctor has seen the most gunshot wounds to the head? A forensic pathologist. The only other traumatic brain injury expert would be a neurosurgeon. And they wouldn't know one dang thing about a deceased person's brain injury with their brain decomposed. So looks like a forensic pathologist is the greatest expert you can get an opinion from.

Also I find it amusing that I see people saying their are pages and pages of articles in medical journals about people that survive frontal lobe gunshot wounds. Please link to these. Because they are considered a rarity and case reports would be written on them. But there are absolutely not pages and pages and pages. It's rare, therefore why it's written up in medical journals at all. The ones I can find, that I've linked to previously in this thread, is a woman that shot herself in the frontal lobe and survived, but was in a coma for months and still doesn't have full use of her legs. Horn is correct in saying that it would be disabling because almost every person shot in the head in this way dies, and if they don't they are unconscious afterwards. Yes there are people that are lucky and live but it's a rarity and the vast majority of those are unconscious after the shot or immobile. So there is a possibility based on an extremely low percentage of shots to the head? So yes, we should believe that's likely the case here? Alright that makes sense. Especially when the rest of the evidence proves there was not blood in the area shot? Even more chance for being incapacitated.

I've also seen someone say that shooting through someone's temple is the most common way for that person to live? Can you link that? That is not true in everything I have learned. People that shoot under their jaw going upward are the ones that usually survive because the bullet goes through so much bone (lower jaw, upper jaw) that it doesn't damage the brain as severely or even at all. The temporal bone is the weakest and thinnest part of the skull in the location of the temple. Also a gun shot to the frontal lobe is absolutely not like a lobotomy at all. We've discussed previously that even arrows and low speed projectiles are not even like gun shots. Gun shot has high velocity and shakes the entire brain and damages areas far from the initial brain injury and tears tissue. A lobotomy is like brain surgery in which a part of the brain is removed, which happens with refactory seizure patients or trauma although in different areas of the brain. Brain surgery is not like a gun shot or otherwise brain surgery would never be done. It's one thing to doubt whether TA was alive after a shot. But it's another to totally discredit what the ME saw about no blood being in the cranial cavity and the only explanation that could make that possible. Which I have still not seen an explanation for...

I think it's insulting to discredit a doctor that has such great experience when most of us in this thread has never even seen inside a cranial cavity or a brain. I'd rather just hear opinions and not medical claims that are skewed.

 

[LambChop]

Yes, I know. I watched as JM cross examined her about it but that deduction may be incorrect. If the casing is light enough it could be lifted by the force of blood flow. Depends on how much blood and the rate of movement or flow. I think it's very possible that the casing was there first, then the blood. So, I guess I disagree with the JM.

The problem with that is the gun ejects from the right and the sink was on the left. So Jodi claims the bullet ejected to the left to land over by the sink. Did not happen. If it did not eject to the left than she probably did not shoot him first and she clearly was not standing there. The ME believes the blood at the sink is from the chest wound and that sounds right because he would have been coughing up lots of blood. From what we have heard blood from that type of injury will clot very fast. At some point within two minutes the bullet casing landed on top of that clotted blood. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Wow really you guys? We shouldn't believe anything Dr. Horn says because he is a forensic pathologist and not a traumatic brain injury expert?? LOL. Do you know what it takes to become a forensic pathologist? Most complete an internal medicine residency before they enter a forensic pathology fellowship. That is where they are in the hospital and work with hospitalized patients, including those that have had gun shots. They would be experienced in all types of medical events including trauma. And others complete anatomical and clinical pathology before a forensic pathology residency. Where they learn about the mishaps and diseases that can happen in the human body. Medical examiners see many gun shot wounds. They know anatomy better than many other types of doctors and can tell what has been injured and affected by that injury. I would not doubt their expertise because they are not a "traumatic brain injury expert". What doctor has seen the most gunshot wounds to the head? A forensic pathologist. The only other traumatic brain injury expert would be a neurosurgeon. And they wouldn't know one dang thing about a deceased person's brain injury with their brain decomposed. So looks like a forensic pathologist is the greatest expert you can get an opinion from.

Also I find it amusing that I see people saying their are pages and pages of articles in medical journals about people that survive frontal lobe gunshot wounds. Please link to these. Because they are considered a rarity and case reports would be written on them. But there are absolutely not pages and pages and pages. It's rare, therefore why it's written up in medical journals at all. The ones I can find, that I've linked to previously in this thread, is a woman that shot herself in the frontal lobe and survived, but was in a coma for months and still doesn't have full use of her legs. Horn is correct in saying that it would be disabling because almost every person shot in the head in this way dies, and if they don't they are unconscious afterwards. Yes there are people that are lucky and live but it's a rarity and the vast majority of those are unconscious after the shot or immobile. So there is a possibility based on less than one percent of shots to the head? So yes, we should believe that's likely the case here? Alright that makes sense.

I've also seen someone say that shooting through someone's temple is the most common way for that person to live? Can you link that? That is not true in everything I have learned. People that shoot under their jaw going upward are the ones that usually survive because the bullet goes through so much bone (lower jaw, upper jaw) that it doesn't damage the brain as severely or even at all. The temporal bone is the weakest and thinnest part of the skull in the location of the temple. Also a gun shot to the frontal lobe is absolutely not like a lobotomy at all. We've discussed previously that even arrows and low speed projectiles are not even like gun shots. Gun shot has high velocity and shakes the entire brain and damages areas far from the initial brain injury and tears tissue. A lobotomy is like brain surgery in which a part of the brain is removed, which happens with refactory seizure patients or trauma although in different areas of the brain. Brain surgery is not like a gun shot or otherwise brain surgery would never be done. It's one thing to doubt whether TA was alive after a shot. But it's another to totally discredit what the ME saw about no blood being in the cranial cavity and the only explanation that could make that possible. Which I have still not seen an explanation for...

I think it's insulting to discredit a doctor that has such great experience when most of us in this thread has never even seen inside a cranial cavity or a brain. I'd rather just hear opinions and not medical claims that are skewed.

:takeabow::tyou: Thank you for explaining that so much better than most of us. Until we hear differently, other than Jodi that is, we should respect his findings.

 

[Wolfpack Fan]

This afternoon I watched the testimony of the medical examiner. Flores must have told the defense (or somehow they found out) that Travis was shot first. Dr. Horn said that he didn't tell Flores that the shot was first--that he doesn't even remember speaking to Flores, even though it is noted that Flores attended the autopsy. Dr. Horn thinks the gunshot probably came last. Travis could have already been dead when he was shot. After he was shot, Travis would have at least become incapacitated. He would not have been able to get up and fend off all the blows from the knife. Since the defense obviously thought Travis was shot first, I think Jodi started off her story with Travis lunging toward her and getting shot.