Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

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What do you believe were the sequence of events?

  • Travis was stabbed, his throat slashed, and then he was shot

    Votes: 464 71.2%
  • Travis was shot and then he was stabbed and his throat was slashed

    Votes: 180 27.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    652
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lo·bot·o·my

Noun

A surgical operation involving incision into the prefrontal lobe of the brain, formerly used to treat mental illness.



This is more or less what that gunshot wound did to him. He was shot in the right frontal lobe. Obviously, the poor souls given lobotomies during the dark ages of mental illness [the last century] did not die from their wound, although they were changed forever.
 
The court may go with it. The ME may say it. You may say it and go with it. Others may say it. Others may not agree. You are right tho because:

None of that matters... it is what the jurors decide to believe.

BBM...this is exactly what it boils down to. Seeing the differing opinions here, one can imagine what discussions might take place in the jury room.

Does it matte?r...I do believe a lot of the defense is riding on him being shot first, but I don't know it the jury sees it that way.

On the board here, some responses have come from people with apparent medical backgrounds. Typically in cases like these, the defense will reject such individuals as jurors.

I wonder how much the jury will discuss this? Methinks a lot.
 
didn't doc horn say no blood was in the sinus/mouth area??

I believe during cross examination, Horn indicated there could have been bleeding into the sinus and mouth from such a gunshot wound. Certainly there is blood streaming from his nose in the photo of his body in the shower.

Dave
 
This video seems to have explained it well.
This is a cool video, thanks for posting. It does a nice job of putting together a timeline and revealing some interesting tidbits. Obviously Jodi's story makes no sense.

The video misses on a few points imo. Do we really think Travis would be compelled to do anything at knifepoint, such as compliantly sitting down in the shower? And, once aware that Jodi was brandishing a knife, that he would willingly put himself into a more vulnerable position? I think he would react immediately and powerfully to bust out of that situation and take control.

I also don't see him getting stabbed in the chest, and then walking to the sink, turning away from his attacker. Makes no sense.

I chuckled at the suggestion that Jodi put Travis in the shower to wash off her DNA from the sex they had. After the bloody mayhem that had just ensued, her DNA would likely have been all over the place, and she would have known it. This is why what she had planned was a clean gun kill. A knifing madness would have been fraught with risk for her, both during and after the murder. Her half-hearted attempts at cleaning up the crime scene speak volumes. She was clearly not prepared for such a course of events and the resulting mess. The crime scene was now completely out of control. Her detailed planning did not comprehend such a chaotic murder. It would have been uncharacteristic for a cool, calculating woman, no matter how much she may have been seething over Travis.

Dave
 
This is a cool video, thanks for posting. It does a nice job of putting together a timeline and revealing some interesting tidbits. Obviously Jodi's story makes no sense.

The video misses on a few points imo. Do we really think Travis would be compelled to do anything at knifepoint, such as compliantly sitting down in the shower? And, once aware that Jodi was brandishing a knife, that he would willingly put himself into a more vulnerable position? I think he would react immediately and powerfully to bust out of that situation and take control.

I also don't see him getting stabbed in the chest, and then walking to the sink, turning away from his attacker. Makes no sense.

I chuckled at the suggestion that Jodi put Travis in the shower to wash off her DNA from the sex they had. After the bloody mayhem that had just ensued, her DNA would likely have been all over the place, and she would have known it. This is why what she had planned was a clean gun kill. A knifing madness would have been fraught with risk for her, both during and after the murder. Her half-hearted attempts at cleaning up the crime scene speak volumes. She was clearly not prepared for such a course of events and the resulting mess. The crime scene was now completely out of control. Her detailed planning did not comprehend such a chaotic murder. It would have been uncharacteristic for a cool, calculating woman, no matter how much she may have been seething over Travis.

Dave

I agree.

All the premeditation that JM is attempting to prove is evidence of an organized killer, imo. The gas cans, the stolen gun, the trip south to 'visit friends,' the hair color, the car rented 90 miles away, the tampered license plates, the turned off cell phone in Arizona, the choice of the shower, the calls to his voicemail after lhe fact, the email after the fact, all shows thought and planning.

This thought and planning would contradict the chaotic mess that is the actual crime scene. Something went horribly wrong. [The gun didn't disable on the first shot and jammed on the second shot?] Why did she put him back in the shower? All I can think is because that was the original plan.

IMO
 
I've read the whole thread. I'm not sure what in the world happened in that room.

I'm interested in the duct tape and the phone call from Cancun girl. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming Jodi took a gun down there to give Travis one last chance to acknowledge her and put her first--and possibly agree to let her go on the well-deserved cancun trip. She'd helped him get to where he was in PPL and they always went on trips together. Jodi couldn't handle him going to Cancun with anyone else.

I think Jodi was successful in her goal--or so she thought. They'd reconnected, had sex, and all was good. except, while she was putting stuff in her car, she must have heard his phone ring in the office. She is known to check his emails and his phone. I think Cancun girl called, emailed or texted. That set Jodi off.

She went upstairs and was pissed off. But she played it off and he was getting in the shower and getting ready for that conference call he had to take in a few hours. She decided to take the shower pictures to bid her time as she figured out how to confront him about that girl.

I believe she had her own camera strap because I believe she'd said that her camera had been used that day as well as his (to make video.) So I think she had a shoulder strap she put his camera on.

He knew she was taking the pictures because the shower door was opened. Had it been closed, she would have been photographing nothing but water and steam on the shower door. I believe while she was photographing his back, she got the gun and trained it on him. He turned around and we see that "Oh, crap" look on his face, but he's still standing.

I think he starts asking her what she's doing and she orders him to sit in the shower. I think at that point, she hands him the duct tape to tape his wrists, and he complies. We see that ominous picture of him staring at her and the camera. There are other darker uncentered photos of the same pose that I think happened because he couldn't tear the duct tape roll off and she needed help.

He can't tear it off, so she gets the knife off the sink--where Travis had left it while cutting the rope earlier and she leans over to cut the tape. Those pictures snap from her waist. Travis lunges at her, the photo snaps from her hip, the camera falls and she has to stab him because the gun is on the counter.

Travis' defensive wounds on his hands look to me as if they were likely attained in a manner that indicates his wrists were bound. they appear to only be on the sides of the hands. And I think this was how she was able to overpower him. He could have broken out of the tape because it was wet but I think he fell at her feet, the camera kept snapping and she stabbed him in the chest while he was on the ground, hands still bound at the wrist.

I think she slit his throat right there and probably shot him there, too. I think she'd planned to drag him out of the house and take his entire body to dispose of it somewhere. I think she dragged him to the carpet in the bedroom but figured out how impossible it was going to be to get him down the stairs, so she had to drag him back into the shower.

I'm sure I'm wrong somewhere in here but just thought I'd throw it out there. Jodi lies, but I think I believe her that the knife was already in the bathroom. I don't think she meant to use it but had to use it to stab him when he tried to overpower her while she was cutting the duct tape on his wrists.

As far as the shell casing goes, that could have landed on a towel or some clothes and then later fell on the blood when she tried to clean up.
 
I believe it happened the way the ME stated. But I'm open to others opinions of how it happened as well.

Couldn't have said it better myself. ITA.
 
Why did she put him back in the shower? All I can think is because that was the original plan.

IMO

I think you got it. Her planning suggests that she wanted no trace of her being in Arizona... nothing to tie her to the crime. Therefore, there could be no DNA of hers associated with the events of the crime. Obviously there would be her DNA present at the house from her previous visits, so she reasoned that her only worry would be removing traces of her visit on June 4th. Again, I go back to her police interview where she says something about wearing gloves were it her intention to kill Travis, then says that wouldn't have made any difference because her prints were all over the place from previous visits. That comment seemed to come out of nowhere, but she had thought of this, probably during her original planning.

Her plan was to contain the crime, not spread it all over the house. The shower made perfect sense for a contained kill. Even the blood could be washed down the drain. She wouldn't have wanted Travis' blood all over her, in her hair, soaking her clothes. Because then she is faced with new problems: his blood on her, in her car, etc, ties her to the crime. More to worry about. Her improvised removal of her bloody clothes on the road prior to the checkpoint is another indicator that she hadn't planned for a messy butchering. But indeed the shower would be the perfect place for the kill. As suggested previously, it removes DNA from their sexual activities. Since Travis had already showered before the murder, perhaps she was improvising after the mayhem. There was a lot of brutal interaction between her and Travis during murder, so she may have reasoned there would be a good chance for DNA transfer to his body, so she hauled him back into the shower. Alternatively, she had visualized during her planning that that is where he would die. Now in semi-machine mode after perpetrating such ghastly horror, she went back to her original plan, not knowing quite what else to do.

Faced with an unplanned landscape of blood and potential evidence, she did the best she could to gather up items that might have her crime-related DNA and threw them in the washing machine or took them with her.

I'm guessing she is forever regretting that she didn't simply remove the camera chip or take the camera with her.

Dave
 
wilsodh said:
I'm guessing she is forever regretting that she didn't simply remove the camera chip or take the camera with her.

And, maybe forever regretting she didn't take a better gun with her.

One of the first things she does is she goes out and buys a decent gun--the 9mm. If she had had that gun with her, instead of the toy gun, things may have gone differently.

By proving that she had three gas cans in SLC, JM is also proving that she used the gasoline in those cans to make it through Arizona covertly, because they are now empty when she reaches SLC.

So we have planning before the fact, a horribly gone wrong chaotic crime scene, and planning after the fact. This crime was not meant to happen the way it did, not if planning and attention to detail could prevail.

IMO
 
I am only conflicted on one part. At times I believe she tricked him in to posing for the photos and at other times Im convinced she was taking them without his knowledge until he spotted her in the photo before the close up shot of Travis' face. She is dressed so I think he may have thought she had left and went to take his shower.

We will never know exactly what all Travis endured that day while fighting for his life. But imo we do know somewhat the sequences of events based on the information gathered at time of autopsy and based on the forensic evidence found.

So I believe her intention all along was to pretend to leave knowing his habits that he would then take a shower. She needed him to be in a small confined space which was surrounded on three sides and only one way out and that was toward her. I think she dropped the camera because she didnt give a crap about the camera...if it was damaged.......so what that would be good for her. Then I think she stabbed Travis in the chest. He knew the only way to escape was toward her so he threw up his hands and stumbled out of the shower and made it to the sink coughing up blood from the chest wound. She then is hacking him in his back. He went down on all fours and she continued to slash him with the knife as he was trying desperately to crawl away down the hallway. She then pulls his hair on his head forcing his neck back and she slices his throat from ear to ear with him bleeding profusely in that area of the crime scene.

She drags him back and as she does she hears Travis' agonal breaths escaping and mistakes that for he is still alive. So when she has him back in the bathroom she shoots one bullet in his head. By then he is no longer making any death noises so she thinks after shooting him he is finally dead.There is no evidence that the gun jammed. It shot properly and ejected the casing as it is suppose to do.

This lines up with the MEs testimony plus it also lines up with the photos the ME was shown and had never seen before the trial. The one photo of Travis down with Jodi pants/foot showing and the one where the casing was clean as a whistle except underneath it when it landed in the already spilled blood of Travis.

Dr. Horn clearly states that the bullet RE-ENTERED and landed in the left cheek area meaning it did not go straight lined to that area but entered the brain first and spiraled and finally landing in the left cheek.

He also clearly said that the gunshot to the brain or the slit throat would have left Travis immediately incapacitated and unable to defend himself. The only severe injury out of the three that would allow him to be ambulatory for a few minutes was the stab to the heart.

I think she put him in the shower because it was in his private area that no one would enter plus she may have wanted to wash any of her DNA off that may have been on his body.

IMO
 
Dr. Horn clearly states that the bullet RE-ENTERED and landed in the left cheek area meaning it did not go straight lined to that area but entered the brain first and spiraled and finally landing in the left cheek.

He also clearly said that the gunshot to the brain or the slit throat would have left Travis immediately incapacitated and unable to defend himself. The only severe injury out of the three that would allow him to be ambulatory for a few minutes was the stab to the heart.
IMO

I addressed this in post #272 above. Gunshot wounds to the frontal lobes are the least dangerous and incapacitating of brain injuries. Dr. Horn is a ME, not an expert in traumatic brain injury. I don't think we can put much weight on his speculation around whether or not Travis was incapacitated by the gunshot. The defense can/should easily refute this with an expert witness.

As for the shell casing, this is also heavily over-weighted imo. Blood coagulates quickly, and the shell casing could have been kicked around at any time after the spilling of blood, even well after Travis was dead, before Jodi left the scene.

Dave
 
Yes, because it did not go into that area. It re-entered and landed in the left cheek area after it left his brain.

On cross, didn't Horn indicate there could have been bleeding into the sinus and mouth from such a gunshot wound?

EDIT: I knew I saw it somewhere, but had to go back and check. Member Wenwe4 reported the following testimony in post #26 of the thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195462&page=2 (bbm):

Issue of gunshot wound - frontal lobe it went thru it . . . human body - shock to entire brain - not like an arrow or nail - shock to the brain - incapacitated. gunshot went above the mouth - bleeding out the mouth is entirely possible - ended up in left cheek.

Dave
 
I addressed this in post #272 above. Gunshot wounds to the frontal lobes are the least dangerous and incapacitating of brain injuries. Dr. Horn is a ME, not an expert in traumatic brain injury. I don't think we can put much weight on his speculation around whether or not Travis was incapacitated by the gunshot. The defense can/should easily refute this with an expert witness.

As for the shell casing, this is also heavily over-weighted imo. Blood coagulates quickly, and the shell casing could have been kicked around at any time after the spilling of blood, even well after Travis was dead, before Jodi left the scene.

Dave

I respectfully disagree. He has vast medical knowledge and also has hands on experience about all parts of the body including the brain throughtout his long career as a ME. Plus out of over 6,000 autopsies at the time this happened I am sure many of them were gunshot wounds to the brain.

Then why arent they refuting it if its so easy to do? We have heard of no pathologist being on the defense witness list.

I do not agree. If the casing was kicked around in that bloody bathroom it would have traces of blood all over it and even inside the empty casing cylinder instead of only underneath where it landed in the already spilled blood. The blood would continue to congeal after the casing landed there.

Nothing is over-weighed in a criminal murder cases. It was brought forth for a reason because it is evidence and the reason is it substantiates the gun shot was fired last and it backs up Dr. Horn's opinion which he has never waivered on.

The jury will know what it means when a casing is completely clean except the backside of it where it rested in the blood pool. Its really not complex to understand the casing/blood in this case. They dont live in caves nor are they from Pinellas Co. Florida either.
 
Posted this in another thread, but this one is more appropriate..

The only way I can make sense of the totality of the wounds is if the ME is off on his opinion that the gunshot wound would have immediately rendered Travis unconscious and unable to defend himself. Even the ME says he does not have complete information because he can't track the bullet through the brain. There's no testimony about what functions are controlled in that part of the brain or why it would necessarily have immediately incapacitated Travis completely.

The other factors that support the gunshot being first are:

1. The shot was downward traveling from Travis' right brow down to his left cheek from at least 2-3 feet away. (ME testimony and pics). This was exactly the relative positions of Travis and Jodi in the last "alive" picture of Travis in the shower 44 seconds before the camera dropped.

2. At no time after the throat wound would Travis have been in a sitting up position that could have led to the path of the projectile from right brow to left cheek unless Jodi was laying on the floor shooting him...an outlandish scenario.

3. The shot could not have been made in the position Travis was found in the shower, so if he was shot after death in the bathroom/shower, Jodi would have had to again reposition his body in the shower after she shot him.

4. Jodi brought the gun with her and all the evidence indicates that she went with the intention of shooting Travis. Reason and logic say that shooting him would have been her first attempt to kill him. In one of her interviews she said that if she killed Travis she would have kept shooting him til he was dead -- and I think that was her intention, but the gun jammed and she had to resort to other "less humane" means. She worked the gun jam into her story during her 48 Hours interview, claiming the gun man tried to shoot her but the gun jammed so she could escape. IMO she was drawing on her actual experiences and observations when coming up with these stories so as to try to make them believable.

5. ME testified that the trajectory of the bullet could have caused blood to enter mouth and nose. This fits the blood spray and patterns around the sink which cannot really be explained any other way -- stabbing in the heart would not cause that kind of spray and would not cause blood in mouth and nose. Although I do think there was some testimony that the patterns could have been caused by Travis being stabbed while he was positioned at the sink.

6. Finally, although we cannot take any of Jodi's statements as the truth, I believe that her account of the intruders was her way to telling pretty accurately what happened to Travis. She wanted to make it believable so she gave an account that she actually believed could have happened -- i.e. Travis being shot and still surviving and able to lift himself up on all fours. To make it as believable as possible, I think she relied on what she actually observed as reality ..Travis was shot and was badly injured but did not die or lose consciousness. She left out the stabbing to the heart and throat slice because she wanted to claim he was still alive when she left.

The only thing that was holding me back from believing in this sequence was the ME's testimony. But there are so many other factors that support him being shot first, and after listening to the ME testimony again, it's not as conclusive as I thought. In fact, he first says that the head would would have "likely" been incapacitating "rapidly" (not immediately). So I conclude that the ME made a mistake with his opinion about the sequence. The fact that the shell casing had no blood does not bother me at all -- Jodi poured water over stuff, and it could have been kicked around or cleared from the gun after the fact.

FINALLY someone got it right! We may be outnumbered 2:1 in the voting, but I think this is the only sensible scenario given all the information we have.

I'm assuming most readers here have listened carefully to the police interrogation tape? There is a very telling point when Jodi describes Travis after he was shot by the 'intruder'. She says: "He was still alive!". The way she says this sends chills up my spine. She expressed a combination of surprise and emotion that was clearly genuine. This was the emotion she felt when she shot him in the shower. She fully expected a head shot would be immediate death. But it wasn't. She was very surprised when Travis was far from dead or incapacitated. She also indicated in the interrogation that the gun jammed. I think this was also an element of truth. Finally, if you'll recall, she describes that IF she were intending to kill Travis, she would do it humanely by shooting him until he was dead. She said this for two reasons: 1) this was her intent from the start when she brought the gun with her (which obviously she did); and 2) by describing this to the detective, she sets up a contrast with what the crime scene actually portrays. That is, why on god's green earth would she undertake to stab and butcher her ex when a gun would have been much cleaner and efficient?

So she expected Travis to die in the shower with a head shot while he was sitting down. The angle matches the bullet trajectory. But he doesn't die. She pulls the trigger again, and the gun jams. At that point she leaves the immediate scene to get the knife. Travis, stunned, stumbles to the sink, not knowing quite what to do. His sinus has been penetrated by the bullet, spilling blood into his mouth and lungs (as he breaths in through his nose, he aspirates blood). He coughs, and blood projects onto the mirror. Jodi returns with the knife, and starts trying to finish him off. He sees her in the mirror and turns to defend himself, acquiring defensive wounds. Mortally wounded and unable to stop the attack, he attempts to flee down the hall, where he falls and succumbs to additional stabs in the back and finally the throat slash. She is ferocious in her attack because she really wants him dead quickly, as the whole thing has turned from a carefully planned execution into a brutal nightmare. And she probably doesn't want him to suffer unnecessarily (as she indicated to the detective). What appears to be over-kill in cases like this is really just an attempt to end the life of the victim quickly. Stabbing rarely results in immediate death.

Ok, so what about Horn's testimony? Like the poster above, I was not at all persuaded by his suggestion that Travis would have been immediately incapacitated by the head shot. On what basis does he believe this? People often get shot in the head and don't go down immediately. It depends on what part of the brain is injured, the caliber of bullet, etc. The medical literature is full of cases of people with brain injuries who don't seem to be terribly affected by the injury. Sadly, suicides by gunshot to the head often fail to achieve the objective. This is particularly true of gunshots from the side into the temple. Some of us also seem to have forgotten that Horn stated that brain tissue degrades quickly upon death, and it was not possible for him to determine the extent of hemorrhaging. I'm frankly shocked that the defense let him get away with putting his scenario out there without vigorous cross examination and presenting an alternative scenario by expert witness. As this is a critical point in the trial, this mistake is huge.

For those who believe Jodi would have brought a gun as part of her plan, and yet bring upon herself all the mess, horror, and uncertainty of a knife attack as her first act of violence, I would recommend a careful re-listen to that police interrogation. There are haunting elements of truth to her story. Jodi was methodical. From the gas cans, to the staged robbery to get the gun, to all she did to try and cover her tracks. It makes absolutely no sense that she would have used a knife as the weapon of choice. She wanted a clean kill in the shower. Minimal mess, minimal DNA exposure to clean up. A scene of bloody mayhem is the last thing she would have wanted.

Dave

Thanks to you both for these fantastic posts! This is exactly what I believe happened!

I also believe the camera was dropped at the end of the hallway by her during her race for a knife. She would have been holding the camera with her right while the shooting the gun with her left. This is the only explanation I can come up with as to how that camera ended up so far down that hall. I find it HARD to believe it could have ended up in that location without more accidental pictures if it was kicked during a struggle.
 
I do not agree. If the casing was kicked around in that bloody bathroom it would have traces of blood all over it and even inside the empty casing cylinder instead of only underneath where it landed in the already spilled blood. The blood would continue to congeal after the casing landed there.

The casing could have landed there a number of ways after the murder without blood traces on top. The casing could have originally landed on clothes that were on the floor, bath mat, anything. How do we know he didn't undress before showering and leave the clothes right there on the floor?? Picking up said items during clean up would launch the casing and could land anywhere which would give the same effect as ejecting from the gun. I do think this was premeditated but I believe she shot him first.
 
I will never understand why she did not take the memory card or the whole camera with her!
I know she still would have been tied to the murder with her bloody palm print,but the camera of all things not to take,just boggles my mind!


How did she get out of the house without leaving footprints or were some found and I just didn't hear about them?
 
I agree.

All the premeditation that JM is attempting to prove is evidence of an organized killer, imo. The gas cans, the stolen gun, the trip south to 'visit friends,' the hair color, the car rented 90 miles away, the tampered license plates, the turned off cell phone in Arizona, the choice of the shower, the calls to his voicemail after lhe fact, the email after the fact, all shows thought and planning.

This thought and planning would contradict the chaotic mess that is the actual crime scene. Something went horribly wrong. [The gun didn't disable on the first shot and jammed on the second shot?] Why did she put him back in the shower? All I can think is because that was the original plan.

IMO

I agree that she planned the events to transpire in the shower. But TA, after the first attack, was able to get out of the shower, look in the mirror, bracing himself on the sink, then take off down the hall where she intercepted him with the knife. TA tried to fend off the initial stabbing with his hands, which got to be too much for him so he turned around to try to get away but she continued to stab him in the back - by this time he was already stabbed in the heart and had a punctured lung so he wasn't going anywhere, he could only fall to his knees at this point - I think the latter is why the knife pattern on his back depicts relatively close stabbing wounds because he wasn't moving after he turned around, he was dying. So, he falls to his knees, she pulls his head back and slashes his throat, pushes his head forward, then at that instant - somehow the camera goes off immortalizing the last moment of TA's life. Then she drags him back to and shoves his body in the shower. They know that the body and the shower walls were rinsed off and then she turned the water off.

I think this is exactly what happened. TA was trying to save himself and he was utterly defenseless when she confronted him in the hall with the knife.
 
I believe that Travis thought JA had left, and she slipped back into the house, with Travis unaware. The look on his face in that last photo closeup of Travis has haunted me since the first time I looked at it. He appears startled and frightened! JA went there with all intentions of murdering Travis. Her jealousy fueling the bloody crime! I agree with Nurse's interpretations of the sequence of events. And I 100% believe the testimony of Dr Horn who is a well educated, well established, and experienced physician over anything coming out of the mouth of JA! Theres absolutely no way this murder was carried out in the way JA wants us to believe. The photos are an excellent proof against that lie. Plus I know Juan Martinez has so much more to blow that lie to pieces! I looked at autopsy photos last night on a site a friend led me to, and I'm positive I should not link it here, the slashed throat is so heinous alone, JA should be given the DP just on that one photo! Its so sad that Travis ever came to be involved with that evil devil!:furious:
 
My question is, why was he sitting in the shower? People don't sit in showers. IMO, she pulled the gun on him, told him to sit down then shot him in the head. I do not see how she could have possibly stabbed him first.
I'm glad you asked that because I've been stuck on it. Something had happened to make him sit like that. And where are his hands/arms in that picture? It looks like they're over his head. I also agree with people that think he knew something bad was happening in the picture of him staring straight at the camera.
I'm thankful the pictures were recovered but I feel sad for his family having to see them. There are so many questions that must haunt them.
 
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