Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[wasnt_me]

I can't understand how the state could ever have believed that the shot came first when the shell casing dropped on TOP of a puddle of blood and there was no blood on top of the casing. That's just forensics 101 not to mention plain old common sense. Because of that it stands to reason that the shot HAD to have come after the stabbings or there would be no blood on the floor for that shell casing to fall on TOP of.

The defense has no choice but to claim the gunshot came first because it's the only scenerio that could possibly make this a self-defense incident. In order to claim self-defense Jodi would have had to have been in immediate peril and grabbed the closest lethal item to protect herself with which HAS to be the gun because it isn't plausible that there was a knife close by for her to use and not the gun. What would they say? The knife was in the upstairs closet and the gun was in the silverware drawer in the kitchen? Ridiculous. That's why they have no other choice but to claim the gunshot came first - it's the only way they can claim self-defense.

It is possible that, during her clean up effort, the shell casing could have fallen out of a towel or clothes and onto the blood later.

 

[KandyKane]

If that is the case then why would she fire it at the end when all is quiet and he is no longer a threat?

Do a search on .25 caliber stopping power. And then an image search on .25 caliber pistol. It's more likely the knife was a backup to the gun. If she had a higher caliber gun the knife would never have some into play.

She used the knife first, not the gun. Therefore, she planned to use the knife first and may have never wanted to use the gun at all. There's all kinds of reasons why she shot him at the end. To make sure he was well and truly dead since she probably never anticipated that after stabbing him he'd be able to get out of the shower, the bathroom and all the way down the hall which probably freaked her out since I think that her plan to kill him in the shower had more to do with his not leaving blood evidence all over the place as well as a way to trap him so he had little chance of fighting back or getting away. Also an aversion to using the gun because of the fear of someone hearing it and risk being caught in the house red-handed. She also may have wanted to use the knife so that he'd die painfully knowing that in the end SHE was in control of him, and SHE was the one taking his life in revenge for how she felt he treated her.

All the overkill speaks to rage, but I also believe that she was so freaked out that he didn't die nice and neatly in the shower from a couple of stab wounds that she was desperate to make sure he was well and truly dead. She envisioned the murder to be a simple couple fo stab wounds, and he'd die in the shower nice and tidy washing away all the blood evidence. But that plan went totally awry when he was able to get out of the bathroom and all the way down the hall getting blood all over the place. I really think her dragging him back to the bathroom and stuffing back in the shower was an illogical attempt to fit the circumstances back into the way she had envisioned the murder. Jodi ALWAYS has to be in control of every single situation. I also think that's why she's botched her own case with what she says and how she acts on the stand because even though she's crusifying herself she HAS to always maintain control, and she's always done that by lying, being non-comittal, dancing all around a question while bombarding with massive amounts of insignificance so as to try to dodge the question all together, etc. Her arrogance and smugness also shows how she believes she's maintaining control with no clue at all that she's botching her own case because of it. Though the jury may have seen her as somewhat sympathetic at first her sparring with the prosecution, smug arrogance and evations not to mention all the outright lies has the jury by now hating her guts. I believe they've long since made up their minds that she's guilty and can't wait to throw the book at her.

 

[LambChop]

It is possible that, during her clean up effort, the shell casing could have fallen out of a towel or clothes and onto the blood later.

Yes, that would be possible.

 

[LaneGirl]

Wouldn't the danger be the same if she missed with the gun? What if he did body slam her because she had the gun in her hand and the gun went flying and she rolled away and grabbed the knife she had left on the tub and then stabbed him as he bent down to grab her. That is a possibility, too. She may have intended to shoot him first and brought the knife for backup. Let's not forget Travis had already had a gun pointed at his head once before. I can only imagine he went through the scenarios of what he should have done to get the gun away from the assailant afterwards. If Jodi pulled the gun on him and aimed it at his head he could very well have grabbed her and knocked her down as she stated with the gun flying across the floor out of her reach. jmo

BBM - Absolutely!!! You make great points all of this is possible. I will stubbornly stand by the trajectory of the bullet, fits perfectly from his sitting position in the last photo & her above him. He also knew her and probably thought she wouldn't shoot especially if they really did have sex and a one time good relationship and maybe thought he could talk her out of shooting instead of lunging for her. idk

No one knows what happened in that bathroom for sure, maybe the reality is none of us are even close. I just wanted to respond to the commet made that such & such "had" to happen and such & such is "common sense". Totally respect that posters opinion just trying to show that not everything is so black & white.

 

[wasnt_me]

What do you think of the possibility that she did everything in the bathroom, but dragged him down the hall cause she actually thought she could get his dead body out of the house--realized she couldn't--and dragged him back into the shower?

I was toying with that, think she would have let his head rest on the carpet, and exhausted, realized she couldn't roll him up in a blanket and take him to the desert as she might have thought.

I know it would be daylight, but I heard of someone putting a dead body in a sewer in behind his neighborhood in broad daylight. Maybe she could have planned to back travis' car out and put hers in so she could load him, but she just wasn't strong enough.

Just a theory because I don't get why there's blood low on the wall on both sides of the hallway unless she's dragging him against the walls in one direction and then back down in another.

I also don't see how he had so much blood on his shoulder (from a neck gash IMO) but he appeared to be with Jodi in the middle of the corridor near the walls in that foot photo.

 

[danzn16]

I would. Like I mentioned previously. Please do a search on ".25 caliber stopping power." The only thing positive you'll find is "it's better than nothing" or a knife. Which is why she most likely used it first. And the caliber used is why she ended up having to use the knife.

But of course, that all means nothing because the ME has spoken.

I am very well versed on calibers and bullets, thanks though. It may not be the strongest in stopping power or highest caliber but it's still deadly. That's what a lot of people say about .22 and yet it's still holds the title for most deaths. Don't underestimate a bullet to the brain either. Saying that a .25 simply can't put someone down, especially when it's to the head is just crazy.

 

[pip]

The reason JM went with the 'knife first' scenario. To prevent an appeal d/t this:

http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Petition.pdf


I believe Det. Flores fell on the sword to save the case. He had to admit to perjury or the case would have been blown. I believe he walked away from the autopsy with informed knowledge via Dr. Horn that the GSW came first, as he shared on the 48 hour program. I also believe Dr. Horn told him the same thing the day before the Chronis trial started. He opted to fall on the sword and deny that Dr. Horn told him that. JMO.

 

[LambChop]

The reason JM went with the 'knife first' scenario. To prevent an appeal d/t this:

http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Petition.pdf


I believe Det. Flores fell on the sword to save the case. He had to admit to perjury or the case would have been blown. I believe he walked away from the autopsy with informed knowledge via Dr. Horn that the GSW came first, as he shared on the 48 hour program. I also believe Dr. Horn told him the same thing the day before the trial started. He opted to fall on the sword and deny that Dr. Horn told him that. JMO.

Defense accused Flores of perjury. Flores did not commit perjury because he honestly believed the gun shot wound was first. Flores never lied he stated what he believed at the time. Big difference. Didn't the judge deny this. Grabbing at straws and taking an opportunity to get the DP removed. It's defense's job to do that and take advantage of every opportunity they can to get it removed. Didn't work though. jmo

 

[pip]

Defense accused Flores of perjury. Flores did not commit perjury because he honestly believed the gun shot wound was first. Flores never lied he stated what he believed at the time. Big difference. Didn't the judge deny this. Grabbing at straws and taking an opportunity to get the DP removed. It's defense's job to do that and take advantage of every opportunity they can to get it removed. Didn't work though. jmo

He first said it was what Dr. Horn told him, then he said it was a misunderstanding about what Dr. Horn told him, then he said it was his own opinion. I think he fell on a sword. It is what Dr. Horn told him, imo.

 

[KandyKane]

Respectfully snipped...

I understand from gun owners if the gun jammed the casing could have come out later when she picked it back up. idk

Also the casing could have landed somewhere and in her rush to "clean" up dropped it there. She did put camera, clothes & towels in the wash.

It could have been kicked there during all of the struggle.

So I respectfully disagree that the shooting "had" to be after the stabbings.

The far greater percentage of the time guns don't jam. Though it's possible that it jammed, the more logical explanation is that it didn't. Couple the casing landing in a puddle of blood with no blood on top of it with the ME's report and testimony and there's no way the gunshot came first. I tend to go with the evidence that speaks for itself rather than try coming up with a string of coincidences with a low probability of even one of them being likely much less all of them.

The casing whenever it came out of the gun had to have landed squarely in a puddle of blood since the margins of the puddle are even (the blood didn't flow around the casing), and there is no blood anywhere on the casing other than where it touches the puddle, so the casing didn't roll into the blood. Therefore, the casing had to have come directly from the gun and landed in the puddle of blood rather than it being knocked about while she was cleaning up and rolling into the puddle.

The defense has no choice but to claim that the gunshot came first despite all the evidence that it didn't because that is the only scenerio where self-defense can be claimed.

Who knows why she shot him at the end when he was likely already dead? Maybe she wanted to make sure he was good and truly dead. Maybe it was all rage overkill. Maybe she wanted it to appear that there was more than one person that killed him so as to appear that his murder was a home invasion. Maybe it was a combination of all or some of these things or something else like she's just an evil cold-blooded killer that was so enraged at him for rejecting her that she wanted to kill him several times over. We aren't ever going to know why, and the evidence of the sequence of events speaks for itself.

 

[vikvaliant]

I am very well versed on calibers and bullets, thanks though. It may not be the strongest in stopping power or highest caliber but it's still deadly. That's what a lot of people say about .22 and yet it's still holds the title for most deaths. Don't underestimate a bullet to the brain either. Saying that a .25 simply can't put someone down, especially when it's to the head is just crazy.

That's like saying cars cause more deaths than planes-- which is true. However, we're talking about calibers here. Being in a plane crash is deadlier than being in a car crash. Likewise being hit with a .357 is deadlier than being hit with a .22, even though .22s cause more deaths. A .22 has a higher velocity and more stopping power than a .25. The .25 caliber is more reliable and generally used with small guns.

I'm not saying a .25 can't put someone down. I am saying it's one of the calibers that's least likely to do so. Even when shot in the head.

 

[molly333]

The reason JM went with the 'knife first' scenario. To prevent an appeal d/t this:

http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Petition.pdf


I believe Det. Flores fell on the sword to save the case. He had to admit to perjury or the case would have been blown. I believe he walked away from the autopsy with informed knowledge via Dr. Horn that the GSW came first, as he shared on the 48 hour program. I also believe Dr. Horn told him the same thing the day before the Chronis trial started. He opted to fall on the sword and deny that Dr. Horn told him that. JMO.

OMG this happened at the probable cause hearing and it's the gun first theory! It's exactly what we've been saying. Why did they change their theory of the case?






"The trial court allowed the hearsay testimony and Detective Flores testified that Dr. Horn had the following opinion among others:

--The bullet wound to the head was the first injury to the victim.

--The bullet wound to the head would not incapcitate the victim.

--The cut across the throat was the last injury sustained.

--The victim regained consciousness at some point during the attack."


"The Prosecution fully adopted the testimony of Detective Flores, at one point stating: "The State's position is that the victim, Travis Alexander, was initially shot through the right side of the head while he sat in the shower."


OMG.

 

[KandyKane]

Respectifully snipped and BBM - It's funny because I think it's plan old common sense that for her to overpower him the sure way would be with a gun. A knife is so iffy especially since he'd been working out so much. If one is going to murder someone why chance a knife fight with someone stronger? Idk

just thoughts.

That's why she evened the odds by having him trapped in the shower and sitting on the floor when she surprise attacked him. She wanted him to suffer, and she wanted him know it was HER that was killing him and once again back in control of their relationship.

A gun makes noise that someone could hear, and may have her caught in the house red-handed by the cops or a neighbor. Using a gun is much more risky solely because of the noise. In bringing and using two different weapons it makes it apparant that one was a back-up to minimize the risk to herself.

She was there for hours, had sex with him, took pictures of each other in the bedroom and then in the bathroom with him in the shower. If her only intent was to kill him, she would have shot him in the back of the head the minute he turned his back on her as soon as she got in the house. She had a far larger agenda that she played out all those hours she was with him at his house before killing him. She didn't have the intent of killing him fast an easy and then leaving.

 

[KandyKane]

I do not know what JM believed himself just that through Flores JM seemed to think the ME thought the gunshot was first in the beginning. Flores clearly thought it when Jodi gave him the Ninja story even though when she asked about his wounds Flores only said Travis was shot. That told her, IMO, that JA suspected Flores did not know what the sequence was and so she went with her Ninja story.

Who knows what happened???? I just know that at this time JM is putting little importance on it as an issue and focusing on her making a conscious effort to get another weapon in order to kill him. With the bullet first an argument could be made by the ME that Travis did not do all the things she claims he did. That he would have been down and only the stab to the chest would have accounted for all that blood. Travis would have had a short timeframe to walk around and try to get help for his wounds. So I do not think the gunshot first is exactly helping her if they bring the ME back on rebuttal. Regardless of which weapon she used first, at some point she switched and that would have taken an effort on her part because she admitted she did not know where the knife was. If she had time to look, she had time to escape. Toasted. jmo

So it's Flores telling her in the interview that Travis was shot that is making people believe that he thought the gunshot came first? I'm not buying that. He would have already known by the evidence at the crime scene that it didn't come first, and whatever he says to a perp in the interview is likely going to be a lie, incomplete and calculated to get information from them. No way am I believing that anyone from the state believed the gunshot came first. JM's line of questioning has been geared toward trapping her in to answers that make it clear that the gunshot did NOT come first. He knows that the gunshot coming first is the only way that self-defense can be claimed. That's also why his line of questioning to the ME wanted him to pin down the scenerio of the fatal wounds (chest stab, throat slit and gunshot).

 

[LaneGirl]

I typed out a long response to KK and I guess it was too long as I got logged out

kk - i love your passion but there's no way you can say there's no way the gun shot came first.

I'm told this gun does jam and is known for jamming.
The casing could have been dropped just like being ejected directly from the gun without getting blood on it.

Maybe I'm not even arguing what came first but just the idea is that the only fact we know for sure is that no one knows FOR SURE (not yelling) what came first.

I also love your confidence as a gun firster and I haven't been swayed yet the other way I don't have the confidence to say that IS what happened first.

BTW- my other post that didn't make it was much more eloquent

 

[KandyKane]

It is possible that, during her clean up effort, the shell casing could have fallen out of a towel or clothes and onto the blood later.

Not without getting blood on it it couldn't. Did you see the photos of the things she used to clean up? They were SATURATED in blood. Even running them through the wash with bleach didn't get it out. It's simple. That shell casing was ejected from the gun when she shot him and landed in a puddle of blood. Any other scenerio is so low in probability as to be ridiculous.

 

[LaneGirl]

That's like saying cars cause more deaths than planes-- which is true. However, we're talking about calibers here. Being in a plane crash is deadlier than being in a car crash. Likewise being hit with a .357 is deadlier than being hit with a .22, even though .22s cause more deaths. A .22 has a higher velocity and more stopping power than a .25. The .25 caliber is more reliable and generally used with small guns.

I'm not saying a .25 can't put someone down. I am saying it's one of the calibers that's least likely to do so. Even when shot in the head.

I would also like to add and I will try to find the supporting link that only 10% of gun shot victims survive being shot in the head however a much larger percent survive long enough to get to the hospital.

 

[molly333]

So it's Flores telling her in the interview that Travis was shot that is making people believe that he thought the gunshot came first? I'm not buying that. He would have already known by the evidence at the crime scene that it didn't come first, and whatever he says to a perp in the interview is likely going to be a lie, incomplete and calculated to get information from them. No way am I believing that anyone from the state believed the gunshot came first. JM's line of questioning has been geared toward trapping her in to answers that make it clear that the gunshot did NOT come first. He knows that the gunshot coming first is the only way that self-defense can be claimed. That's also why his line of questioning to the ME wanted him to pin down the scenerio of the fatal wounds (chest stab, throat slit and gunshot).

No. He said it in court at the probable cause hearing.

Scroll up.

IMO

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

JA could not stand that her "dream" man rejected her. She purposely stabbed him in the heart FIRST to give him the maximum amount of pain and weaken him...He made it to the sink while she stabbed him in the back and back of his head. This is the most horrid evil girl anyone could ever imagine and I am sure the jury will agree. She is pure evil. JMO

 

[LaneGirl]

Deleting my questions because I'm of to bed and may not come back in this thread