Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

What do you believe were the sequence of events?

  • Travis was stabbed, his throat slashed, and then he was shot

    Votes: 464 71.2%
  • Travis was shot and then he was stabbed and his throat was slashed

    Votes: 180 27.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    652
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He does not look like there's a gun pointed at him in any picture. If you saw that picture not knowing he was killed, you'd never say a gun was pointed a him. And for what possible reason would she be making him do that and then taking a picture of him????? She didn't want the pictures. She had to delete them. The picture taking was only to get him in a vulnerable position so she could kill him. Once she pulled out a gun or knife, the picture taking would have ended.

My initial impression of TA in the shower with the look he had on his face was one of shock and fear. I do believe she had him on the floor in the shower with the gun pointed at him. It is just a sad picture to me and maybe I am just feeling badly that he was subsequently murdered by JA.

Interesting that you pose questions that are rational yet we all know that JA was not rational. So anything is possible.
 
My initial impression of TA in the shower with the look he had on his face was one of shock and fear. I do believe she had him on the floor in the shower with the gun pointed at him. It is just a sad picture to me and maybe I am just feeling badly that he was subsequently murdered by JA.

Interesting that you pose questions that are rational yet we all know that JA was not rational. So anything is possible.

I don't think so.. I think he is looking at her like, Just go home now.. I think that he was being nice posing for pictures because she had just, Well performed for him. Just like in the phone call. You can tell he just wants to get off the phone but still lingers and talks to her because he doesn't want to be mean.

This is not a mean guy. He just was not into her like she wanted him to be.. So she killed him.
 
The ME only goes by evidence of the body. The casing would not factor in here. Changing his medical opinion based on what the lawyer told him could cause him to loose his license.

Just like we are discussing here the ME could have told the prosecutor that both scenarios were possible and Martinez decided to go with the one that would bring the death penalty. My impression of Martinez is that he would do exactly that even if the evidence was slightly weaker-- because all the other evidence is overwhelming.

If JA truly dispatched TA with the knife and had presence of mind throughout, as Martinez alleges, she wouldn't have used the gun at the end.

At that point it would have been difficult to prove she didn't kill him in self-defense if she came with a gun and didn't use it. She could prove she had the stolen gun from the robbery. Unless she was really in a fog-- and Martinez says no to that.
 
I don't think so.. I think he is looking at her like, Just go home now.. I think that he was being nice posing for pictures because she had just, Well performed for him. Just like in the phone call. You can tell he just wants to get off the phone but still lingers and talks to her because he doesn't want to be mean.

This is not a mean guy. He just was not into her like she wanted him to be.. So she killed him.

While we differ on our opinion and perception of the picture of TA in the shower we agree that she killed him. Hope the jury gets past all the suppositions, relies on the evidence and the trial and finds her guilty of 1st degree Murder.
 
While we differ on our opinion and perception of the picture of TA in the shower we agree that she killed him. Hope the jury gets past all the suppositions, relies on the evidence and the trial and finds her guilty of 1st degree Murder.

I just hope they can see how premeditated this was. How twisted she is.
 
Here's another thing I just thought of:

The evidence PROVES she did not shoot him as she has testified.

We can ascertain she shot him in the shower or near the shower while she was facing the shower -because of where the shell casing landed.

Empty shells eject to the right and back.

If she were standing facing the closet door when she fired, the shell casing would have been found on the opposite side of the bathroom or possibly in shower if the door were open.

Doesn't help with the sequence of events, but does contradict her testimony of firing the gun at Travis as he lunged from the closet, which we all know is a lie.
 
Yes I'm wondering the same question. Also where did you get info about that women typically stab downward and men stab upward? Can we get a link?

Jodi talked about MM and how he was mad at her because she was sparring with some guy with fake knives in the backyard. There is a name for it. I wish I could find it. I'll have to look in the timeline thread. If this is true she would know exactly how to hold a knife like a man. Being left handed I would think she would go slightly up aiming for the left side of his chest if he were facing her. I'm right-handed and if you handed me a knife and act like you are stabbing I would lift the knife up and strike downwards. But if I had it in my left hand I instinct would the upwards. Strange. jmo
 
Yes I'm wondering the same question. Also where did you get info about that women typically stab downward and men stab upward? Can we get a link?

If you go back to my original post, I clearly stated this had nothing to do with anything in this case other than I thought it was interesting to read Travis had an upward stab wound. I do not have a link to support the statement of male vs female, it is just something I have read/been told over the years, most likely by LE.

The theory is that women generally are weaker so the momentum of the downward thrust gives them more power. Men on the other had will thrust upward because they are more powerfull in general. Not saying this is always the way it goes. Just a generalization. It was then speculated that Jodi may have had some martial arts training. Nothing more to it than that.
 
Where does it say in the report that a gunshot was first?

That is the thing. It doesn't anything about sequence so he did not change his opinion. No where it that written. He also could not change the circumstances on which he based his final conclusions after all the testing was completed. There was little blood in the brain when he examined it, there was no bruising around the bullet wound indicating not much blood was available at the time he was shot, the bullet casing landing on top of the blood, etc. These were already documented. Dr. Horn did not change this evidence and he never officially gave a statement, only his report which does not mention any sequence. It's defense that had the hissy fit because Dr. Horn did not say what they thought he would say when asked the question of the shot being first. jmo
 
If you go back to my original post, I clearly stated this had nothing to do with anything in this case other than I thought it was interesting to read Travis had an upward stab wound. I do not have a link to support the statement of male vs female, it is just something I have read/been told over the years, most likely by LE.

The theory is that women generally are weaker so the momentum of the downward thrust gives them more power. Men on the other had will thrust upward because they are more powerfull in general. Not saying this is always the way it goes. Just a generalization. It was then speculated that Jodi may have had some martial arts training. Nothing more to it than that.

Could this have something to do with the way women and men are different in the arms. I remember years ago doing this experiment with my husband. I asked him to turn his arms to match mine and he could not do it. lol
 
Could this have something to do with the way women and men are different in the arms. I remember years ago doing this experiment with my husband. I asked him to turn his arms to match mine and he could not do it. lol

Could be. If someone handed me a knife and said how would you stab someone, I'd immediately raise my arm above my head with it and slash downward. LOL.
 
Just like we are discussing here the ME could have told the prosecutor that both scenarios were possible and Martinez decided to go with the one that would bring the death penalty. My impression of Martinez is that he would do exactly that even if the evidence was slightly weaker-- because all the other evidence is overwhelming.

If JA truly dispatched TA with the knife and had presence of mind throughout, as Martinez alleges, she wouldn't have used the gun at the end.

At that point it would have been difficult to prove she didn't kill him in self-defense if she came with a gun and didn't use it. She could prove she had the stolen gun from the robbery. Unless she was really in a fog-- and Martinez says no to that.

This did not come out with JM. It was first heard of when the defense deposed the doctor. They asked his opinion on whether Travis was shot first and did not like his answer. The State had the same opinion, at the time, as the defense that Travis was shot first. Just the same as we all do pretty much here. It sound logical, doesn't it. Dr. Horn said no it's not because the evidence does not show that the shot to the head was first. That is my understanding.

I'm sure, at the time, JM was shocked to hear that and so was defense. jmo
 
Personally, I think that she intended to kill him with the knife and only had the gun as back-up. I don't think she wanted to use the gun because of the fear that someone would hear it fire, and she might get caught in the house by police or a neighbor.

If that is the case then why would she fire it at the end when all is quiet and he is no longer a threat?

Do a search on .25 caliber stopping power. And then an image search on .25 caliber pistol. It's more likely the knife was a backup to the gun. If she had a higher caliber gun the knife would never have some into play.
 
While we differ on our opinion and perception of the picture of TA in the shower we agree that she killed him. Hope the jury gets past all the suppositions, relies on the evidence and the trial and finds her guilty of 1st degree Murder.

The jury does not have these suppositions because they are not suppose to discuss it. In the end, JM is not opposing the shot first theory from Jodi. What he is taking issue with are the two weapons and the point at which she stopped using one weapon and switched to another. That would be premeditation without all the "pre-planning" events she did before getting to Travis' house. At some point she stopped using one weapon and switched to another, all in 62 seconds. Only we are assigning importance to the gun first/last theory. jmo
 
That logic also goes against why she waited to shoot him.

But it's bad logic, because the roommates were home when she got there and he was never tied up. Plus, it's likely she was giving him one last chance to do what she wanted, take her to Cancun, etc. But he failed her test, so she did she what she did.

No. My point is you cannot prove premeditation with the knife first. And, premeditation has not been proven yet in that regard.

He proved premeditation with the gun, imo, but then he throws it out the window by saying knife first.

The look on his face in the shower shows he was not ignoring her--whatever she was doing. So you cannot say she snuck up on him and stabbed him while he wasn't looking. He is hypervigilant and very disturbed looking in that picture. This picture supports gun first, imo.

Knife first is likely to get her a lessor included, maybe even self defense.

IMO
 
If that is the case then why would she fire it at the end when all is quiet and he is no longer a threat?

Do a search on .25 caliber stopping power. And then an image search on .25 caliber pistol. It's more likely the knife was a backup to the gun. If she had a higher caliber gun the knife would never have some into play.

When she packed the car to leave home before her arrest she had a 9mm gun, ammo and a box with books and some knives. Knives appear to be her weapon of choice. jmo
 
I agree about the reason for all the fatal wounds. Travis didn't die fast enough for her. Also, agree that she wanted to keep it clean to the shower area. She even tried to clean up the hallway because of trying to stick to that plan.

This is my thought, too. I think that killing him (and leaving him) in the shower was her original plan, and she felt compelled to stick to it. I don't think she was prepared for a bloody crime scene, and in fact, her efforts afterward have little to do with cleaning up the scene from a housekeeping perspective, and everything to do with getting rid of evidence of her presence in the house.

Although I, too, find the "gunshot first" sequence compelling (and I don't believe that the casing landing in blood says anything either way -- if the gun jammed she might have ejected it later, and the roommate who found TA could have inadvertently kicked it into the already-dried bloody spot), I defer to the ME. Assuming the knife came first, I think her plan was simply to get Travis posing, ask him to "now lean back, put your hands behind your head, close your eyes... that's it" and then strike a single, fatal blow when he wasn't even looking. Given the upward angle, I think he might have been standing when she did it -- a bold risk by JA, but we're not talking about a trained hitman, but a psycho who believes she is too clever to get it wrong. The fact that she nearly succeeded at striking a well-aimed stab to the heart would suggest to me that she had an adequate chance to aim it, and wasn't blindly stabbing wherever she could, as the other wounds appear. I think she brought the knife and gun, with the knife intended to be the primary weapon, and the gun her back-up in case she lost the upper hand. She probably had a number of alternate plans in her head, which may or may not have included using the gun to threaten or subdue TA, or to threaten to kill herself.

The blood and photo evidence tell much of the rest of the story for me. He got out of the shower, staggered around the bathroom bleeding and attempting to defend himself (because she was standing in front of him and the shower door opened toward his right, effectively blocking the path straight out the bathroom door, I think he instinctively went left, toward the windows/sinks and by the time he reached the sinks, had sustained the defensive wounds to his hands that left bloody handprint smears on the countertop, and of course the chest wound that caused him to aspirate blood on the mirror). He may have paused at the sink with the idea of grabbing something with which to defend himself, or he may have fallen down in front of it and grabbed onto it to drag himself back up. He ultimately managed to reach the door and get down to the end of the hallway, sustaining multiple additional stab wounds on the way, and then was overcome by his injuries.

We all know that regardless of whether the knife or gun came first, his throat was cut at this point in the struggle, but my main point of confusion is pinpointing the location where the throat-cutting occurred, based on the "foot/bleeding TA" photograph. Given the location and extent of the bleeding down his neck and onto his shoulder, I believe that this was taken immediately after the throat-cutting occurred, and that JA triggered the camera when she stepped up/back after doing it, and was looking down at TA to watch what would happen. The ME testified that TA would have been conscious for up to a few seconds afterwards, and that it was possible that he was raising his own arm and head in that photo in one last, futile effort to defend himself or escape. (To me, the angle of the arm is too low for JA to have been dragging him at this point). This photo was clearly taken with him lying on his back, parallel to the direction of the hallway, with JA standing behind his head, on tile. The huge blood puddle on the bedroom carpet at the end of the hall is where I've always assumed his throat was cut. However, I'm not sure how this jibes with that photo, which has TA on his back in the hallway -- can't tell if his feet are toward the bedroom or bathroom. Did she cut his throat in the bedroom with him on his knees facing toward the bed, grab his hair, pull him up and backward toward the bathroom headfirst (dragging him far enough that his feet were not folded beneath him but were now extended), and then hit the camera with her foot (with it taking a photo facing toward the bedroom)? (That might explain why the puddle was so blood-drenched as to soak through the carpet and padding as shown in some of the evidence photos, yet shows no "dragging path" away from it toward the hallway: if he was on his knees and she cut, then pulled his head and shoulders back and began to drag him backward, there would be no drag marks from the puddle -- and this could have been when he would have sustained the bruising to his legs.) OR did she cut his throat in the bedroom, flip him over onto his back and start dragging him toward the bathroom feet-first, and then run back around behind his head when he started to move, again snapping the photo toward the bathroom? Or did she simply drag him backwards (from the bedroom back into the hallway) before the cut to his throat, cut his throat right there in the hallway, in the position he appears in the picture, with that insular puddle of blood on the bedroom carpet coming from his initial efforts to escape through the bedroom? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this! I just can't tell precisely where the camera was in the hallway for that picture (or the one of the baseboard that follows).

Whatever happened, my guess would be that she dragged TA back to the bathroom, where the shower was still running. There, she administered the coup de grace with the gun, either because it had symbolic value for her, or because he was still barely alive (ME said the throat slash would have caused him to be unconscious within seconds, and die within minutes), and then put him into the shower, where she had intended that he be in the first place.

What surprises me most is that she did not take the camera's card with her. Her last photos of TA look to me like more than staging to get him in a vulnerable position -- I think she initially intended to have them as souvenirs of someone she believed she had owned and conquered, but then abandoned that plan in her panic over the unexpectedly messy scene.

Just my thoughts. :seeya:
 
No. My point is you cannot prove premeditation with the knife first. And, premeditation has not been proven yet in that regard.

He proved premeditation with the gun, imo, but then he throws it out the window by saying knife first.

The look on his face in the shower shows he was not ignoring her--whatever she was doing. So you cannot say she snuck up on him and stabbed him while he wasn't looking. He is hypervigilant and very disturbed looking in that picture. This picture supports gun first, imo.

Knife first is likely to get her a lessor included, maybe even self defense.

IMO

Jodi was charged with first degree long before the ME gave his deposition to defense and when the State felt the stabbings were first. It really makes no difference when you figure she could have gotten away from him at any point and chose to stay and finish up her business. jmo
 
This did not come out with JM. It was first heard of when the defense deposed the doctor. They asked his opinion on whether Travis was shot first and did not like his answer. The State had the same opinion, at the time, as the defense that Travis was shot first. Just the same as we all do pretty much here. It sound logical, doesn't it. Dr. Horn said no it's not because the evidence does not show that the shot to the head was first. That is my understanding.

I'm sure, at the time, JM was shocked to hear that and so was defense. jmo

I agree that the ME's testimony should take precedent in this round even though I believe she shot first.

I say this round because there will be an automatic appeal if she gets the death penalty. JA is currently represented by public defenders. Since it's a high profile case the appeal will be more thorough and I'm sure the defense will have other experts question the sequence.

I believe after appeals she will end up with life.
 
Weather Lady: According to Jodi's own testimony the picture was taken from the bedroom and his foot which is far away looking in the picture is facing the bathroom. Many here think she was dragging him back into the bathroom by his feet. jmo
 
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