Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Captain86]

<mod snip>

I'll give it a shot.

He gets out of the shower after that last picture and head to the toilet. He's gotta pee. When he comes out of that room she hands him the camera so he can look at he pictures she took of him, and hits him with the knife. The element of surprise with a knife, which hurts, is significantly overlooked. A quick hard blow that she intended to hit the heart. She missed a little, but he was completely unprepared. He drops the camera (the ceiling picture), and stumbles back a few steps toward the toilet area as his brain tries to catch up to what happened. She after him again. She is coming at him from the right, so he is trying to go left. He goes down half in front of the toilet and the scale area. He manages to get up, and knocks her back, possibly down. He stumbles near the sink and catches himself and remains uprigth with the aid of the sink. This is when he starts coughing. She comes at him again at the sink, hitting the wounds to the back of the head and/or the cluster in the upper back. He is trying to clear his airway. He manages to get to the r hand wall in the hallway. He turns his back to the wall so it will support him. He is trying to fight of the stabs, but he is getting weak and is having trouble staying upright. The anterior neck wounds and the scalp wound occur during this volley of stabs. He reaches the end of the hall. Near the outlet at the bedroom end of the hall, there are two large smears of blood on the wall. He went to the ground for the last time here. He is trying to crawl into the bedroom and presumably to the stairs. She cuts his throat at the tile-carpet juncture and he fall forward onto the carpet. She feels she has killed him so she starts dragging him back to the shower (during this dragging, she hits the camera with her foot and we get the pic from the top of the head. The camera ). Near the light switch she either slips or has to put her hand on the wall for leverage, leaving her palm print on the wall. She gets him drug back to the area in front of the linen closet. She is exhausted. She steps back to catch her breath for a second. He has been making noises and convulsing the whole time so she is unsure what is going on, he should be dead. His body starts making noises and the neurlogical system fires off a few last involuntary contractions (because blood flow has been cut-off). She misinterprets this as him trying to get up. She pulls the gun out and fire one shot hitting him in the forehead. The bullet passes through the Frontal Lobe, causing the "Cerebral Shock" the ME described thus causing him to finally go limp. She gets him in the shower. Rinses herself off, then drys. Grabs the clothes she had on (maybe the bloody clothes found in the washer) and takes all the stuff found in the washer to the washer. Comes back upstairs with the gun and the towel she used, picks up the knife near the end of the hallway, and puts the knife and gun in her purse (maybe wrapped in towel) accounts for the drops found in the bedroom. Gets dressed and locks the bedroom door behind her as she leaves.

I know it is far from perfect summary, but it follows the blood trail we see in bathroom, and can generally take in most of the major physical evidence we see. I'm not married to this theory, so picking it apart won't bother me too much, as long as your reasoning is more than "I think" or "in my opinion...". As I've said previously, my big issue with the gun first theory is the lack of intracranial bleeding. Me and Realityman (and a few others) read a line in the ME report differently. I can see how he reads it the way he does, and can accept his opinion is based off of that interpretation. Back up your complaints/alternatives with something that has some basis, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

 

[gitana1]

I agree with all your points, but just wanted to point out that the palm print was just below light switch level. (See the attachment below.) Maybe you got this idea from HLN because I know on After Dark they have it near the floor in their mock up, but they're wrong (and about lots of other things, they're mostly useless). They were also wrong about the print orientation. It was horizontal, not facing down, and it was just the side of the palm (see the second attachment) not the whole hand.

You are so right! I did mix that one up!

I keep wondering why some people have decided to believe that the ME is wrong when he says TA was shot last?

1. The gun shot was from a couple feet away - no stipling - and if he was already half dead and on the floor, why wouldn't her kill shot be right up close and personal to make sure he was dead, which is why, in the knife first theory, she used it at the end.
2. She stole the gun and planned to use it first.
3. The trajectory of the bullet matches exactly the last picture if his face as he sat in the shower looking at her. But when his body was found in the shower, the bullet wound was facing away from the shower door.
4. The second story, the ninja story, as told by jodi, has an eerie ring of truth to it - that a woman attacked Travis. That he was shot in the head but the gun jammed. That he did not die instantly after that, but screamed, then got on all fours, holding his head and asked jodi to call the neighbors for help. That the female attacker used a "stern" voice, telling him to be quiet and die. (Which is when I think jodi began stabbing him).
5. jodi also stated she would never stab him to death but would shoot him over and over again until he was dead. But if the gun jammed, she wouldn't be able to.
6. .25's jam easily.
7. The shell might have been ejected after the murder, thus the casing was found on top of blood.
8. The blood pattern at the sink matches a scenario in which Travis lurches up to the sink and sprays blood all over from his mouth.
9. Other forensic experts interviewed on various programs have stated that they believe Travis was shot first.
10. The ME originally stated (as evidenced by the police report) that Travis woould have survived such a shot and that it would have merely temporarily disabled him. He insinuated that Travis was shot first.

I had to laugh yesterday when Samuels (Sam, I am) said it was not premeditation because of the way she left the crime scene. She didn't clean up. Well, she actually clean up but only they things that would have pointed directly to her as being there. If Travis knew she was coming there was a good chance his roommates would have know also. She could not count on him not telling them. So she knew they were unaware she was there and she picked up the rope, the gun, took the knife or destroyed the evidence, deleted the pictures from the camera (which she could have put in the washer or not), washed off Travis' body and made sure she left no bloody prints as she left the house.

Just because the scene was bloody does not prove no planning on her part. Things just didn't go as planned because another person was involved and was in control. I think she wanted him in the shower and she had to wait.

I cannot believe he said that. I cannot believe a psychologist would not see that cutting his throat was not an act of flight or fight and certainly she was not in a fight for her life mode at the point he was at the sink. His back had to have been towards her. So either shot first, stabbed in the chest first either wound would have allowed her to escape because she had two clear paths out of the bathroom. Either of his wounds would have brought blood into his mouth and he was choking with blood evidenced by what is on the sink. Jodi said herself he spit at her and adds as an afterthought it was water. It was not water, it was blood because that is exactly what he would have been doing.

Another coincidence is the remote in her car for a DVD player that she returned to Darryl when her grandfather reported his DVD player stolen. jmo

I totally agree. This guy is such a paid hack. Only one thing I disagree with. I don;t think there was any rope. She had to add that rope business in order to explain why Travis coincidentally had a knife in the bathroom. But no ropes were seen in the photos of that day and there was nothing to tie them on, on the bed!

This makes me nervous for the jury. Especially your #5. There is just no way that I believe that was Travis's gun and it was in his closet. Nothing was disturbed what so ever, and of course this story comes up long after the fact when they can't go look for fingerprints or to see if any dust was disturbed on the shelf. Plus his friends said when they went to the shooting range he always had to borrow their guns. If there is one thing I am certain of, it's that she brought that gun. MOO

Don't be nervous for the jury. They have seen the whole trial and it has been an avalanche of evidence proving her guilt.

But I agree there is no way it was Travis' gun:

1. Why would a manly man buy a teeny, weeny chick gun?
2. Why would there be zero evidence - receipts, knowledge by roommates, friends, relatives, receipts, registration, licenses, evidence he went to a shooting range, etc., bullets, holsters, gun cleaning equipment, that he ever owned any gun, let alone a .25?
3. Like you said, why was there no evidence of a gun being on the top shelf or having been taken by jodi? No dust disturbed, no shirts on the shelves messed up, and she was able to stand on a resting shelf with one foot, without it collapsing? Oh, and I tried to stand with one foot and grip a shelf with the fingers of one hand, then using the free hand to grab something off the upper shelf. Could not do it at all. Not enough leverage or grip.
4. Why would a guy who is so unconcerned about security that he routinely left his doors unlocked (according to his roommates, one of whom didn't even have a key), have an unregistered gun?
5. jodi's story about this gun first just being on the shelf and next being in a holster on the shelf, and then maybe not being in a holster, sounds like a lie - the liar added facts to make the story more plausible, as liars do, and then backtracked when she realized it made the story less believable.

He had no gun. I think that's overwhelmingly clear.

 

[Captain86]

We have a strong circumstantial case that she went there with a plan to kill him with a gun which she stole for that purpose.

With a knife? Not so much. Looks more like murder two or lower.

Vinnie said last night, when he lost his case that she brought the knife, that she could be out dating again in her early 40's with murder two.

IMO

Does the evidence indicate that she intended to kill Travis? We'll talk about the weapons when you answer this question.

I'm not concerned with whoever Vinnie is. Most of these people on these shows are just there to be loud, provide opposing view points to keep up the interest, and to keep their face on TV.

 

[molly333]

Does the evidence indicate that she intended to kill Travis? We'll talk about the weapons when you answer this question.

I'm not concerned with whoever Vinnie is. Most of these people on these shows are just there to be loud, provide opposing view points to keep up the interest, and to keep their face on TV.

Not if she uses a knife. That's what I keep saying.

You almost have a better case for premeditation with a knife if you had never introduced evidence of her stealing a gun.

well, Vinnie's a lawyer, and he made the conclusion that if you can't prove she brought the knife to the house, you don't have murder one.

IMO

 

[scorpio24]

I'll give it a shot.

He gets out of the shower after that last picture and head to the toilet. He's gotta pee. When he comes out of that room she hands him the camera so he can look at he pictures she took of him, and hits him with the knife. The element of surprise with a knife, which hurts, is significantly overlooked. A quick hard blow that she intended to hit the heart. She missed a little, but he was completely unprepared. He drops the camera (the ceiling picture), and stumbles back a few steps toward the toilet area as his brain tries to catch up to what happened. She after him again. She is coming at him from the right, so he is trying to go left. He goes down half in front of the toilet and the scale area. He manages to get up, and knocks her back, possibly down. He stumbles near the sink and catches himself and remains uprigth with the aid of the sink. This is when he starts coughing. She comes at him again at the sink, hitting the wounds to the back of the head and/or the cluster in the upper back. He is trying to clear his airway. He manages to get to the r hand wall in the hallway. He turns his back to the wall so it will support him. He is trying to fight of the stabs, but he is getting weak and is having trouble staying upright. The anterior neck wounds and the scalp wound occur during this volley of stabs. He reaches the end of the hall. Near the outlet at the bedroom end of the hall, there are two large smears of blood on the wall. He went to the ground for the last time here. He is trying to crawl into the bedroom and presumably to the stairs. She cuts his throat at the tile-carpet juncture and he fall forward onto the carpet. She feels she has killed him so she starts dragging him back to the shower (during this dragging, she hits the camera with her foot and we get the pic from the top of the head. The camera ). Near the light switch she either slips or has to put her hand on the wall for leverage, leaving her palm print on the wall. She gets him drug back to the area in front of the linen closet. She is exhausted. She steps back to catch her breath for a second. He has been making noises and convulsing the whole time so she is unsure what is going on, he should be dead. His body starts making noises and the neurlogical system fires off a few last involuntary contractions (because blood flow has been cut-off). She misinterprets this as him trying to get up. She pulls the gun out and fire one shot hitting him in the forehead. The bullet passes through the Frontal Lobe, causing the "Cerebral Shock" the ME described thus causing him to finally go limp. She gets him in the shower. Rinses herself off, then drys. Grabs the clothes she had on (maybe the bloody clothes found in the washer) and takes all the stuff found in the washer to the washer. Comes back upstairs with the gun and the towel she used, picks up the knife near the end of the hallway, and puts the knife and gun in her purse (maybe wrapped in towel) accounts for the drops found in the bedroom. Gets dressed and locks the bedroom door behind her as she leaves.

I know it is far from perfect summary, but it follows the blood trail we see in bathroom, and can generally take in most of the major physical evidence we see. I'm not married to this theory, so picking it apart won't bother me too much, as long as your reasoning is more than "I think" or "in my opinion...". As I've said previously, my big issue with the gun first theory is the lack of intracranial bleeding. Me and Realityman (and a few others) read a line in the ME report differently. I can see how he reads it the way he does, and can accept his opinion is based off of that interpretation. Back up your complaints/alternatives with something that has some basis, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Oh, gosh. I teared up just READING this! Poor Travis! What a horrific way to die! Every time I look at her now I think of those crazed Manson girls.

I agree with your chain of events primarily. It matches the evidence. Thanks for posting!

 

[Captain86]

Yes, I believe the aspiration could have been a result of either the stab wound that severed the vena cava OR the gunshot wound.

However, I believe the passive blood drops into the sink cannot be a result of the stab wound that severed the vena cava, correct? Which stab wound do you think could've made those drops?

And, if JA is hacking and slashing at TA with a knife, why is TA standing with his face so close to the mirror for several seconds?

The Vena Cava is a large vein. Blood exiting veins is passive. Arteries shoot blood across the room. Blood out of a vein oozes and runs. So if he was bent over the sink, those drops could be consistent with blood exiting the Vena Cava wound or the other left chest stab wound or (if you are a gun first) the passive drip from the bullet entering the Maxillary Sinus or from his mouth because he just coughed up a significant amount of blood. Blood from the Vena Cava wound be darker (as compared to blood in an artery) also, due to the lower oxygen content, but I see no way of determining that from the pictures, or if that would even hold up for blood that has congealed over the last 5 days before it was found.

The sensation that you are drowning is strong. He would have a similar sensation with blood in the lungs. He could have knocked her down during the scuffle and had a 2 second respite. How long does it take to cough once or twice?

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

Captain 86,

What I do not understand is why one would chose to use a knife first . Knives are not as quick as a gun, and with someone of TA size she would risk in hurting only before he got her.

The only way that would make sense to me would be if she began stabbing him when he was most vulnerable--that would be sitting on the floor of the shower....and I also believe she Made him do that. If one is going to sit in a tiny shower, why not use the bathtub?

 

[RealityMan]

As I've said previously, my big issue with the gun first theory is the lack of intracranial bleeding. Me and Realityman (and a few others) read a line in the ME report differently. I can see how he reads it the way he does, and can accept his opinion is based off of that interpretation. Back up your complaints/alternatives with something that has some basis, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

It's not just in the autopsy report that the ME addresses the issue of whether hemorrhaging can be detected in decomposing organs. See the ME's testimony, starting at 29:20 or so:

http://youtu.be/4h0fje33320?t=29m20s

When addressing the issue of his inability to detect whether the lung had been knicked by the knife when the vena cava was sliced, the ME stated the following:

". . . we're dealing with a decomposed body, so the organs are not as as pristine -- they don't lend themselves to examination as in a fresh individual -- but if the lung is knicked, it could cough up blood . . ."

 

[RealityMan]

The Vena Cava is a large vein. Blood exiting veins is passive. Arteries shoot blood across the room. Blood out of a vein oozes and runs. So if he was bent over the sink, those drops could be consistent with blood exiting the Vena Cava wound or the other left chest stab wound or (if you are a gun first) the passive drip from the bullet entering the Maxillary Sinus or from his mouth because he just coughed up a significant amount of blood. Blood from the Vena Cava wound be darker (as compared to blood in an artery) also, due to the lower oxygen content, but I see no way of determining that from the pictures, or if that would even hold up for blood that has congealed over the last 5 days before it was found.

The sensation that you are drowning is strong. He would have a similar sensation with blood in the lungs. He could have knocked her down during the scuffle and had a 2 second respite. How long does it take to cough once or twice?

I believe the blood spatter expert stated that those passive blood drops on the sink dropped directly downwards, and I believe the dripping straight down of the blood is obvious even to a non-expert.

It seems like it would be more than a little bit difficult for TA to position the wound in his chest directly over the location where those drips landed. It seems more likely that those drips came from TA's head area, right?

 

[Captain86]

Not if she uses a knife. That's what I keep saying.

You almost have a better case for premeditation with a knife if you had never introduced evidence of her stealing a gun.

well, Vinnie's a lawyer, and he made the conclusion that if you can't prove she brought the knife to the house, you don't have murder one.

IMO

I don't want to sound mean, but I know you keep saying it but that does not make it correct. Her actions before she arrived at Travis' home show pre-planning. You are hung up on the gun had to be used to kill him. That is not true. All that is needed for Murder I is to show she went to his home with the intended to kill him, and then him ending up dead at her hands.

Murder I deals with your intent, not how you accomplished your goal. If it can be established (or strongly implied) that she stole the gun and went to AZ with the goal of killing Travis, and she accomplished that goal; then she is guilty of Murder I no matter how she finally took his life. The fact that she used a different weapon once there does not negate her intent to kill Travis. The fact that it did not go according to her original plan does not lessen the impact nor negate her planning.

Since no knives were missing from the house and none of the knives in the house match the wounds in Travis, where do you suppose the knife came from?

Find the definition of Murder I, post it and we can discuss it.

 

[molly333]

I don't want to sound mean, but I know you keep saying it but that does not make it correct. Her actions before she arrived at Travis' home show pre-planning. You are hung up on the gun had to be used to kill him. That is not true. All that is needed for Murder I is to show she went to his home with the intended to kill him, and then him ending up dead at her hands.

Murder I deals with your intent, not how you accomplished your goal. If it can be established (or strongly implied) that she stole the gun and went to AZ with the goal of killing Travis, and she accomplished that goal; then she is guilty of Murder I no matter how she finally took his life. The fact that she used a different weapon once there does not negate her intent to kill Travis. The fact that it did not go according to her original plan does not lessen the impact nor negate her planning.

Since no knives were missing from the house and none of the knives in the house match the wounds in Travis, where do you suppose the knife came from?

Find the definition of Murder I, post it and we can discuss it.

Not really because the main way you establish that she stole the gun with the goal of killing Travis is if she uses the gun to kill him.

If she doesn't use the gun to kill him, like you and the ME maintain, then that whole circumstantial line of reasoning becomes irrelevant. It's just Jodi doing her weird sneaking, lying, stealing thing.

You cannot prove she brought the knife. There's no knife missing from the house? Who told you this? The room mates who don't even notice a decomposing body for 5 days? I couldn't even tell you if there is a knife missing from my house, and I use them every day to cook. People have lots of knives.

Where did the knife come from? The easiest answer is it was one of his knives. Anything other than that you have to prove.

IMO

 

[gitana1]

Another reason might be that the press had in various pieces initially been attributing shooting first theory to law enforcement:


http://www.timespublications.com/aug10-feature1.asp

BBM.

That's because that's what the ME first stated to LE as evidenced by the police report. We gun firsters aren't that impulsive or stupid.

Well, let's take a moment and think about the crime scene.

She had limited time due to roommates returning home (murder occured at approximately 5:30pm = roommate is due home around 6pm); and yet, even in a RUSH, she managed to drag his body back to the shower, stuff him in there, clean herself off (I theorize that she stood in the bathroom and used the cup to pour water over herself - hence the water on the box in the closet - then stripped down, stuffed her clothes into her backpack), wipe down at least SOME of the crime scene, and only, yes ONLY leave a hair or two and a palmprint?? That does not scream "frenzy" or "disorganized" to me.

I am no expert, not in crime scenes or forensics or anything even close, but from other cases I've read about, the small amount of the evidence she did leave behind is very telling. jmo

I totally agree.

I'm talking specifically about this case.

If she used the knife first to kill him, it looks more like a spur of the moment event instead of a premeditated event.

I really think this is pretty simple to understand. If someone attacks me and I grab a knife and stab him to death while protecting myself, is that murder one? It shouldn't be.

IMO

But then you have to totally ignore all of the compelling evidence that she planned this. Which is illogical. Just because she may have planned a killing one way but ended up actually executing the murder a different way, doesn't negate premeditation. Plans sometimes go awry but what is important is that there was a plan.

I have seen many people assert this about the gun being too loud: So then, why did she bother to bring it with her? Simply for the sake of subduing him so he could be stabbed?:waitasec:

Well, she may have wanted to use it at a time when no one would be home, and most people at work but perhaps she couldn't get him into the shower at such a time, so she resorted to a quieter method of execution. P.S., I'm a gun firster but I don't totally discount the knife first. It could have happened either way, IMO.

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

She attacks from behind, stabbing his head and back. He goes down and tries to fend her off - hence the blood spatter around the toilet.

He tries to get away; it was probably a violent struggle with her stabbing wildly - he makes it down the hall, probably on all fours now or dragging himself and she slits his throat.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

Thank you so much. Much more succinct and intelligent than what I was trying to say.

If Jodi was standing outside shower and at least 2 foot away how did the bullet travel in a downward path. Her hand would have been level with his head standing 2 foot away. They only way the bullet would have traveled downward is for her to be standing right next to him while he was sitting in the shower. Travis was sitting on the shower floor facing south (her left) with the shower door open also to her left and she was 2 foot or more away. She would have had to been standing on a ladder?????? The farther away she was the more the bullet path would have risen and from 2 or more feet away the bullet path would have been straighter and not downward and have ended up in a completely different place in his brain. jmo

Would you try something for me? Take out a tape measure and measure two feet!!!

It's about the distance between two Americans as they stand talking to one another (people from certain other cultures tend to stand closer).

Unless the natural world has completely turned on it's end and we are in an alternate reality and a different dimension, physics are the same as they always have been. No way would the gun trajectory be almost level at a distance of two feet away if Travis were sitting while jodi was standing, in my humble opinion!

Try it! Get out a tape measure and then act like you are holding a gun, and pretend to point it at someone sitting on the ground in front of you, at the other end of the tape measure. I guarantee you will see what I mean!!!!

Interesting as we view that last pic knowing it was the last and knowing what came after - yet we do not really know exactly what he knew, saw, or was thinking at that point.

The gun as "mere back up with no intention of use" though, is not as clear. If she knew she needed back up, she must have imagined trouble, and if she imagined trouble, as they say "forewarned is forearmed" and the gun would have been present.

I cannot imagine sitting down on a shower drain as sexy. I feel he was somehow made to sit down.

IMO, it is illogical that jodi would be standing there holding a camera in one hand and a gun in the other for any long period. Her mission was to kill him. Taking photos was a ruse to get him in a contained space in a vulnerable position. But she wanted to get him killed quickly and get out of there. Holding a gun in one hand and a camera in the other while she gave commands is unwieldy and gives him an opportunity to fight back. I don't think jodi wanted to risk that.

yes, of course.

But I don't see how he had the time to make it to the sink and stand there dripping and expirating blood if she was wildly stabbing him (as I'm sure she would have had to have been) once the stabbing started.

it seems incongruent to me

She could have only stabbed him once in the chest and then once he stumbled out, and was at the sink, began stabbing him in the back and the head until he fell to the floor. I don;pt believe this is what happened but I also don;t think he had to have been repeatedly stabbed only while at the sink. I think only the stabs to his back and the back of his head happened while at the sink, then he fell to the floor, tried feebly to fend her off as she continued stabbing him all over and he managed to crawl to the end of the hallway where she slit his throat.

We have a strong circumstantial case that she went there with a plan to kill him with a gun which she stole for that purpose.

With a knife? Not so much. Looks more like murder two or lower.

Vinnie said last night, when he lost his case that she brought the knife, that she could be out dating again in her early 40's with murder two.

IMO

But then you have to totally ignore all of the compelling evidence that she planned this. Which is illogical. Just because she may have planned a killing one way but ended up actually executing the murder a different way, doesn't negate premeditation. Plans sometimes go awry but what is important is that there was a plan.

P.S. I'm a lawyer too. But I don;t get paid to create controversy or to have something to debate on live t.v..

Why do you think that the ME went with the scenario of him being shot last? It is a lot easier for people to swallow the idea that the shot came first, so why go out of his way to make to make it sound like it happened in any other way unless it actually happened that way? Do you think he's incompetent? Would he not consider everything you wrote here?

I am not asking these questions to be snarky, by the way. I'm actually quite curious to why people are discounting his findings. I don't think that people are infallible, mistakes can be made, but I guess I haven't seen anything that shows why it could not have happened the way he states.

As far as the aspiration, he had a internal injuries, couldn't that cause one to aspirate?

Some of them do sound a bit snarky!:blushing:

I think he reevaluated the evidence and came to what he felt was a logical conclusion based on the evidence. Unlike some other experts, he is not a paid hack. He believes his findings and will not veer from them to help either side. I think he is sincere in his findings and has integrity. But I also think he could be wrong. Please see below.

I appreciate that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I guess it's hard to accept other people's word over a doctor who has been doing this for quite a few number of years. So, yea, I am sticking with the doctor on this one. lol.

Please see below:

<mod snip>

Bravo!!! <mod snip>

Thank you for your excellent response. I'm getting annoyed with being scolded for being stupid and arrogantly thinking I know more than a medical expert. I listened to him carefully and what you say is right on. He did not rule out the gun shot first.

 

[LambChop]

Not if she uses a knife. That's what I keep saying.

You almost have a better case for premeditation with a knife if you had never introduced evidence of her stealing a gun.

well, Vinnie's a lawyer, and he made the conclusion that if you can't prove she brought the knife to the house, you don't have murder one.

IMO

Premeditation was cutting his throat and the 9 stab wounds in the back. How convenient that the knife was right there where she could grab it and finish him off in less than 62 seconds. If he were conscious enough to try to still attack her why is it he did not have the knife because he knew where it was. He had plenty of time to grab the knife after she had the gun. If the gun was his and in the closet Travis could see her grabbing it. Why wouldn't he have gone for the knife? Jodi claims it was either in the bathroom or in the bedroom.

You don't have to prove she brought them to prove she tried to kill him and made an effort to do so when she could have easily yelled for help or run out the door. She was fully clothed. Her pre-planning is just more evidence against her. And too many coincidences to be a coincidence. Way too many. jmo

 

[SMK]

well, Vinnie's a lawyer, and he made the conclusion that if you can't prove she brought the knife to the house, you don't have murder one.

IMO

And yet at the same time, how could jurors in any way believe the theory of "self defense". Slitting a man's throat execution-style "from ear to ear" as he classical Mormon book commands, hardly appears to be an act of self defense. It has the look of an act of vengeance.

 

[molly333]

Premeditation was cutting his throat and the 9 stab wounds in the back. How convenient that the knife was right there where she could grab it and finish him off in less than 62 seconds. If he were conscious enough to try to still attack her why is it he did not have the knife because he knew where it was. He had plenty of time to grab the knife after she had the gun. If the gun was his and in the closet Travis could see her grabbing it. Why wouldn't he have gone for the knife? Jodi claims it was either in the bathroom or in the bedroom.

You don't have to prove she brought them to prove she tried to kill him and made an effort to do so when she could have easily yelled for help or run out the door. She was fully clothed. Her pre-planning is just more evidence against her. And too many coincidences to be a coincidence. Way too many. jmo

"You don't have to prove she brought them to prove she tried to kill him..."

Yes, but there are different types of murder--one, two, manslaughter one and two, self defense.

So you do have to prove the type of murder.

"Cutting his throat and 9 wounds in the back" could be her in the throws of a flooded hippocampus, out of her mind in terror and panic.

IMO

 

[molly333]

And yet at the same time, how could jurors in any way believe the theory of "self defense". Slitting a man's throat execution-style "from ear to ear" as he classical Mormon book commands, hardly appears to be an act of self defense. It has the look of an act of vengeance.

Maybe to you who know about this classical Mormon command. But has that been introduced as evidence in court? Nope. The Jury has been instructed in fight or flight, though.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

BBM.

Snipped:

Would you try something for me? Take out a tape measure and measure two feet!!!

It's about the distance between two Americans as they stand talking to one another (people from certain other cultures tend to stand closer).

Unless the natural world has completely turned on it's end and we are in an alternate reality and a different dimension, physics are the same as they always have been. No way would the gun trajectory be almost level at a distance of two feet away if Travis were sitting while jodi was standing, in my humble opinion!

Try it! Get out a tape measure and then act like you are holding a gun, and pretend to point it at someone sitting on the ground in front of you, at the other end of the tape measure. I guarantee you will see what I mean!!!!

LOL. Oh, I know how far 2 foot is. But the doctor said from at least 2 feet, maybe more. I did not do the experiment. One of our other posters here did it and Dr. Horn described the shot has coming from slightly behind and downward which that poster agreed with. That would mean unless Travis moved from that sitting position in the shower he was not shot there. The glass door was in her way so getting slightly behind him would be difficult (unless he moved forward in the shower to get up). But Jodi insists that she did not shoot him in the shower because this would not go along with self-defense. It's possible she dropped the camera on purpose and he leaned over out of the shower and she shot him. I don't think she stabbed him in the shower or shot him there but I think it's possible it happened while he was getting out. jmo

 

[manzana]

I wanted to copy something over from last night and I do think it is a game changer..

Originally Posted by paperwing View Post
Guessing you guys already know this, but if not - more information on Gpa (Carlton Allen)'s gun:

Gpa's .25 was:

Black, with a black grip.
Also stolen - a fully loaded magazine (7 jacketed hollow point bullets).
Allen didn't know the make of the gun, only that it was 'old' (he inherited it).
Valued at $150.00
The gun was stolen from his dresser.
(Very significant if the gun was IN his dresser, not on top of it) - the report isn't clear. See page 4:

Quote: Manzana
HMMMM? I have said before, had Grampa's gun had hollow points in it it would have been all over from the gun shot. The medical examiner can tell if he was shot with hollow points? I guess if he was shot with hollow a point bullet, that would change my mind that the gunshot surely came last as if it came first, in my mind it would have been all over.

Just playing devil's advocate for a second, if Nurmi can prove the gunshot was a normal bullet, then that would go a long ways to proving Jodi did not use Grandpa's gun. This is my first notice of hollow points mentioned.

I read the autopsy but no mention of if he was shot with a hollow point, I would think that would be easy as pie to detect, from reading all ME testimony it does not appear the bullet was a hollow point.

However Grandpa's gun was said to have hollow points, seven in a magazine, exact same as mine has seven hollow points in it, 25 auto

This seems significant to me not to get glossed over.

Wow, I am surprised this seems to get glossed over, I think it is very important what type of round Travis was shot with, hollow point or standard and then the rest above! TIA

 

[SMK]

Maybe to you who know about this classical Mormon command. But has that been introduced as evidence in court? Nope. The Jury has been instructed in fight or flight, though.

IMO

Yes, I understand. But ok, let's leave out this whole Mormon revenge thing: Let's just say you heard a neighbor had been found with his throat slit ear to ear, so that he was almost decapitated - and say, his daughter claimed she did it in self defense. It would be odd, certainly....

 

[molly333]

But then you have to totally ignore all of the compelling evidence that she planned this. Which is illogical. Just because she may have planned a killing one way but ended up actually executing the murder a different way, doesn't negate premeditation. Plans sometimes go awry but what is important is that there was a plan.

We are dealing with Jodi Arias here.

If I did all those things, it might be illogical to ignore them.

Jodi Arias, not so much.

We're talking about someone who does headstands in police interrogation rooms and smiles on her booking photo like it's a class picture.

IMO