Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[danzn16]

You say you don't want to speculate, but you seem to admit that the knife first theory makes more sense if TA got out of the shower before JA struck the initial blows with the knife.

To me, it makes absolutely no sense that JA would let TA get up from the vulnerable position she had so carefully choreographed.

The only thing that makes sense given the photographic evidence is that JA delivered the initial blow immediately after she accidentally snapped the last shower photo.

I cannot believe she would choose to deliver that blow with the knife instead of the gun.

And the ME's testimony and the position of the shell casing in the pool of blood does very little to sway my belief.

I absolutely did not say that. I was just giving alternate scenarios since you guys think its impossible for an ambidextrous person to use their right hand and in that shower. I don't know what happened and neither do you so saying a certain attack is impossible is just erroneous.

And I don't think a woman half his size would ever be able to not "let" a man get up etc.

 

[danzn16]

Let's say JA stabbed Travis first. I am trying to imagine the sequence starting with Travis in enclosure. He has JA's attention per pic. He needs to exit shower towards JA. JA pulls knife from garment and stabs Travis No. Travis stays in enclosure and gets stabbed first. Injury is not mortal, Travis comes out like a bull to defend himself. More knife fighting. Travis falls to sink area. More knife stabbing. Travis makes it for the bedroom and goes down on all fours taking more blows until the final.
Sure would be easier to use the pistol. But who knows?

But a whole let less fun and satisfying for JA. And she already had the gun for backup so the stabbing plan went wrong she didn't really have to worry.

 

[danzn16]

Knife first theorists:

Is this how you believe JA thought the sequence of events would play out if she used the knife first?

http://youtu.be/0WtDmbr9xyY

Absolutely not.

What's the point?

 

[LaneGirl]

But a whole let less fun and satisfying for JA. And she already had the gun for backup so the stabbing plan went wrong she didn't really have to worry.

Regardless of what came first she was satisfied 29 times and a shot. All within minutes.

 

[molly333]

I hope so! Where did you hear that please?

I heard it yesterday, I think from the talking heads who were discussing things during a sidebar.

 

[Gypseagirl]

So you believe her? In court she writes strictly with her left hand - note.

I don't believe a word she says. All i'm saying is it is possible she could stab with either hand. The woman is EVIL!! For all I know she stabbed with both hands :blushing:
:jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail::jail:

 

[RealityMan]

Absolutely not.

What's the point?

The point is I think JA was smart enough to know that a knife attack in the shower would not play out as depicted in the movie Psycho. She wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower. So she used a gun.

The ME concludes differently, but his opinion is not infallible.

 

[Gypseagirl]

How do you know where she was standing? Ultimately, only JA and TA know what happen

Yes, but these forum is a discussion of the trial. We can discuss all aspects of what we think may have happened and other stuff concerning the trial.....but you are right....the only ones that truly know is JA and TA.

 

[molly333]

You are assuming a lot of things. Just because the wound is in more vertical direction does not mean that she had to be standing over a sitting victim. That picture leads you believe that is when it happened, but that does not mean that is as absolute as you like to make it seem.

The angle of the bullet path from where it entered the R Frontal Fossa to it entered the Ethmoid Bone at midline in the base of the Cranial Vault is a very steep angle. She may not be tall enough to get that angle even if he is sitting. I pulled a skull model apart yesterday here at work, and to get from the entrance to the exit of the Cranial Vault is a really steep downward angle. At her height, this would be a difficult shooting angle to get that trajectory.

The trajectory is close to a 20 degree angle from a vertical axis. She would have had to have been about the same angle in front of him. Even with him sitting this becomes very difficult for her.

With him sitting and her two feet away, the angles don't really match up whether she uses the right or the left hand. The vertical path would be to flat from two feet. She would have had to have been closer, but the evidence does not support this.

I have a Hi/Lo stool in my office. I lowered it down as far as it would go and put the skull model on it. When I sit in the floor beside the stool, I am still taller than the top of the skull by a fair amount. I am 5-5 to 5-6. TA was certainly taller than me in a sitting position. To recreate the same trajectory of the bullet going though the skull, I had to stand with the gun a foot or less from the skull. I also had to stand at an angle off the r eyebrow. If I backed up intil the gun would have been 2ft away the natural angle would have been to flat. To get the same angle, I had to shrug my shoulder and *advertiser censored* my wrist down wile elevating on my toes somewhat. With the skull lying on the floor it was much easier to recreate the angle. The gun needed to be about 30 inches from the target. I know this is not scientific in anyway.

You keep making the statement that there would be blood splatter from shooting him after he was dead. Where would this blood and the pressure to produce this splatter come from if most of his blood is in the carpet at the other end of the hall?

The pressure would come from the bullet. Try shooting a bullet into a watermelon.

One foot or two feet away doesn't matter to me. I was just going by the ME's testimony on the stand.

And, we know it wasn't a contact wound.

So you don't like my theory of how the bullet trajectory would be created?

Why don't you give me yours. Tell me her position and his position and match them up to the trajectory and where they were located. And, I assume he is lying down, as well, for your theory.

Describe it to me.

IMO

 

[sacrablue]

The State is speculating knife first. What is the bid deal to speculate? If we knew everything was 100% fact then there would be no need for jury trials. 'Napoloeon' drives me crazy.

 

[molly333]

But a whole let less fun and satisfying for JA. And she already had the gun for backup so the stabbing plan went wrong she didn't really have to worry.

You say she wanted fun? Do you see her as a fair fighter, too? A fair fight would be JA with a knife and TA unarmed and naked?

How's she going to use that backup gun after TA puts her head through the shower door?

Doesn't sound like much fun.

If she's not a fair fighter, I think she would shoot him first.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

I have yet to see your beloved dr Badens written opinion or spoken opinion. Only from a second hand account and only Dr Baden. How do you know the person wasn't mistaken on his opinion? How do you know if its even the doc u think it is? I've seen a former prosecutors name is Baden and is speaking of gun first.

I don't understand how people see other docs opinions as gospel when they didn't even see the body!

Let's assume hypothetically that the Dr. Michael Baden that Mark Fuhrman referred to in his interview is actually the renowned forensic pathologist discussed on wikipedia here: Michael Baden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Let's also assume hypothetically that Dr. Baden reviewed the autopsy report and concluded, as indicated by Fuhrman, that JA delivered the gunshot wound first.

Would any of this information change your view of the ME's testimony that TA could not have sustained the apparently defensive wounds to his hands after suffering the gunshot wound?

Is there something missing from the autopsy report that Dr. Baden would have to see with his own eyes through a first-hand inspection of TA's body to arrive at the same conclusion as the ME? If so, what?

 

[RealityMan]

I'm starting to think its arrogant that people think they know more than a ME and slightly irrational.

Although I can't envision, based on the photographic evidence (especially the last shower photo that immediately preceded the attack), how or why JA would've struck her initial blow with a knife instead of a gun, I'm willing to concede that it is possible that JA did use the knife first. You, on the other hand, apparently refuse to concede that JA could have used the gun first. Who is being more arrogant and irrational?

 

[Gypseagirl]

I wish it was worthy of her getting shock with that shock belt. Lmao

I can't believe she actually think she is going to get away with it. Especially with all the cameras in the courtroom.

 

[LaneGirl]

Just an FYI -

Attacking the poster and not the post can get one a time out or even the thread shut down. Having said that it's hard in print to know if one is being sarcastic or saying something in jest.

I think we are all passionate about this case and we all agree that we want justice for TA.

 

[weather_lady]

But how does TA physically get there if JA is standing between TA and the sink, continuously stabbing and slashing at him with the knife?

And, if that's what happened, why didn't TA sustain more knife wounds on the front of his body?

I tend to think JA wasn't standing directly between TA and the sink at that point. Once TA fought his way out of the shower, having sustained the defensive wounds on his hands in an effort to protect the front of his body (she still got in a few good stabs nonetheless), I think JA would have initially followed the instinct to stay between TA and hallway/closet doors, which were next to each other, and the only escape routes out of the room. I think JA stepped back nearer to those doors, and that TA went toward the windows/sink initially because they were the closest he could get to those exits without heading toward JA directly. I believe he fell down in front of the sink (or crawled there) and used the edge of the counter to pull himself up, leaving the smeared hand and fingerprints on the edge, coughing blood as he did so. By then, JA had assessed the situation, regrouped and moved to a point directly behind him and was inflicting some of the back and/or neck wounds. TA may have momentarily bent further over the sink, as a reflex reaction to the painful stabs going into his back, and to protect his head. JA's change in position also cleared a path for TA to stagger to the right, out the door, and down the hall. If the camera wasn't knocked down the hall already by TA's bursting out of the shower, I believe it was kicked down the hall by a seriously wounded TA as he stumbled out of the bathroom toward the bedroom.

 

[molly333]

There were only 5 defensive wounds, said HLN today.

That means he was very impaired from the start of the knife fight.

IMO

 

[Captain86]

To my mind, you are putting more certainty into this evidence than actually exists. You and others keep citing the intercranial bleeding as the major evidence of a knife-first attack. However the report leaves doubt as to the ability to firmly ascertain the extent of bleeding or even if the brain was, in fact, penetrated by the bullet. For example, elsewhere it is stated that the dura was intact. I'm not sure how this is reconciled with a bullet piercing the frontal lobe(s). It was also impossible to confirm any bullet trajectory through the brain by examination of the decomposed brain tissue. So one is left to invoke anatomy and make a probabilistic inference on likelihood based on the bullet's apparent trajectory through Travis' face.

My read on this is that there is a lot of uncertainty around Horn's observations and opinions in general, as there would likely be with any ME given the nature of the wound and the decomposition of the body. Nothing here sounds black and white and iron clad with respect to the physical evidence to the exclusion of alternative possibilities. One would hope that he would have presented the uncertainty accurately to the jury, but I smell some bias toward the state's position. Just my olfactory sense! :beagle:

Dave

The bullet entered the skull though the Frontal Bone then passed through the R Anterior Fossa. The Space that is named the Anterior Fossa houses the Frontal Lobes of the brain. There is no extra space inside this structure. It is all taken up by the Frontal Lobes. The bullet then exited the Fossa at midline and re-entered the facial skeleton. It was first in the facial skeleton when it passed through the Frontal Bone. To have re-entered the facial skeleton it had to have been in an anatomical structure other than what is considered the facisl skeleton, the R Anterior Fossa which holds the R Frontal Lobe. When it re-enter the facial skeleton at midline, there is only two structures that it could have passed through, the Ethmoid Bone or the Sphenoid Bone. These two bones make up the inferior aspect of the Cranial Vault. If you put your finger on the point where the cartilage of the nose and the bone meet and point to the back of your head, that is the level that they are at. The Ethmoid Bone is the front bone and th Sphenoid is deeper in the the cranial cavity. The bullet passing through the Sphenoid would mean the bulet would have went into the throat and not the cheek. There would have also been much more damage to the brain with a bullet going from the entrance wound the to Sphenoid. This would only make his testiomony that TA would have been incapacitated stronger. The Ethmoid is really the only option for it to re-enter into the facial skeleton. This path would also put it going through the Maxillary Sinus and on to the cheek.

The report is has two main sections the discussion/description of the wounds and then the General Examination, which is futher divided in the External and Internal Examinations. Look at the Nervous System Examination. The first statement is about the removal of the scalp and this reveals the previously discussed injuries. This excludes those injuries from the current discussion. This is done in medical reports so that the same information is not repeated over and over again. He has completed the description of the wounds, so there is no need for him spend another page going over them. He would have included something unexpected that he encountered, but anything related to the injuries would have been discussed in the Evidence of Trauma section. He didn't do an exam of the wounds and then come back in a few days and do everything else. When he was looking at the gunshot, he did his exam of the brain and completed it. The injured section and the non-injured section are treated as separate entities. This is common practice throughout the medical field.

Despite what some on here would have you believe. It is impossible for an object to transverse the Anterior Fossa, in the manner this bullet did, without hitting the Frontal Lobe. He did not specify this because it isn't necessary. Basic anatomy should lead someone reading his report to the very same conclusion.

Now, I won't speculate on how incapacitated TA might have been from the gunshot, had it happened first. However, postmortem wounds don't bleed. The gunshot did not bleed. While the brain tissue has decomposed, any blood that escaped from the the blood vessels from the time the bullet passed through until the heart stopped beating or there was not more blood to be pumped to the brain would not have decomposed to the point that he would not have been able to identify it. Did the blood on the sink decompose to the point that he could not idnetify it? How about the blood under TA in the shower? How about the blood from on the walls or in the carpet? How the blood in the stab wounds, could he find and identify it? Blood is blood no matter where it is, in or on the body. Even with the brain decomposed the blood vessels on the inside of the skull would bleed when a bullet passed through, and that blood would be evident.

 

[weather_lady]

The point is I think JA was smart enough to know that a knife attack in the shower would not play out as depicted in the movie Psycho. She wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower. So she used a gun.

The ME concludes differently, but his opinion is not infallible.

I think JA was blinded by Narcissism. I also think she didn't simply grab a knife and start swinging it at TA. I think she had him pose for her once again, with hands behind head and eyes closed, and then tried to strike what she thought would be -- and almost was -- a well-aimed and instantly fatal wound to the heart, one which TA never saw coming.

That being said, I confess that my envisioning it that way depends entirely upon the ME's conclusion that a stab came first. The whole thing makes just as much logical sense to me (if not more) if I envision the same things happening, only with the gunshot first. Either scenario leaves niggling questions: if she planned to use the gun first, why even bring the knife (and how did she get ahold of it so quckly after the shot, why didn't she fire the gun a second time, and if she couldn't because the gun jammed after one shot, how and why did the casing end up on the floor rather than left inside the chamber)? If she planned to use the knife first, why bother bringing a gun that might tie you specifically to the crime, and even if you brought it, why bother to use it (doing nothing more than generate more forensic evidence that might come back to implicate you) when you've already completely subdued your victim with a knife?

At least it give us all something to talk about.

 

[RealityMan]

I tend to think JA wasn't standing directly between TA and the sink at that point. Once TA fought his way out of the shower, having sustained the defensive wounds on his hands in an effort to protect the front of his body (she still got in a few good stabs nonetheless), I think JA would have initially followed the instinct to stay between TA and hallway/closet doors, which were next to each other, and the only escape routes out of the room. I think JA stepped back nearer to those doors, and that TA went toward the windows/sink initially because they were the closest he could get to those exits without heading toward JA directly. I believe he fell down in front of the sink (or crawled there) and used the edge of the counter to pull himself up, leaving the smeared hand and fingerprints on the edge, coughing blood as he did so. By then, JA had assessed the situation, regrouped and moved to a point directly behind him and was inflicting some of the back and/or neck wounds. TA may have momentarily bent further over the sink, as a reflex reaction to the painful stabs going into his back, and to protect his head. JA's change in position also cleared a path for TA to stagger to the right, out the door, and down the hall. If the camera wasn't knocked down the hall already by TA's bursting out of the shower, I believe it was kicked down the hall by a seriously wounded TA as he stumbled out of the bathroom toward the bedroom.

This diagram shows JA was standing between TA and the sink when the bathroom ceiling photo was taken:

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/SoulShynz9293/shower_travis_murder_pics_xtralarge.jpg

Note that the first bleeding photo is taken 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo. That means that 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo, JA has inflicted all of the knife wounds, including the final slash across the neck.

How does TA get to the sink in those final 62 seconds if JA is standing between TA and the sink with a knife, slashing and stabbing away?