Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Captain86]

That's very close to what I'm saying. You could have a disorganized offender who premeditated murder but that is not who he is presenting us with to prove premeditation.

He is presenting us with a highly organized offender who is premeditating murder with a gun who then becomes highly disorganized when she commits murder with a different weapon.

[On the face of it, the highly disorganized crime scene in this case bolsters her claim of self defense. It looks impulsive, spur of the moment]

He says, I can prove to you she preplanned this murder because she stole a gun to kill him. And, more than that, liscense plates, cellphones, gas cans, receipts, lost receipts, everything fits to show a compulsively orgainized killer sneaking into Arizona to kill him in a premeditated fashion.

And then he turns around and says, I can prove to you that she used a knife to kill him and left behind a total mess.

well, he is trying to have it both ways. If she planned to kill him with a knife, prove it. If she planned to kill him with a gun, prove she killed him with a gun.

Is she organized? Disorganized? Planned? Spontaneous? What?

He's talking about two different perps.

IMO

What about the scene is disorganized? He has shown that she brought both weapons used to kill him. Wounds from both weapons would have been fatal. It just happens that the cutting of the throat is the quickest death.

 

[pip]

What about the scene is disorganized? He has shown that she brought both weapons used to kill him. Wounds from both weapons would have been fatal. It just happens that the cutting of the throat is the quickest death.

It is disorganized in the sense that there is blood all over the place from bathroom to end of the hall, up and down. All that means is that killing him did not prove to be as organized and meticulous as she had planned. He was hard to take down and he fought for his life and she had to respond by multiple knife blows and finally a slit throat to be sure he was dead. (gun firster here) but either way, he fought hard to escape death.

 

[Captain86]

I've looked at the blood stain on the carpet a little closer, and I'm starting to wonder if Travis wasn't on his stomach during the final throat slash.

Here's my reasoning. If Travis was on his back for the throat slash, the blood would have dripped down his neck and off his shoulders on both sides. This should have resulted in a blood pattern that is different from what we see in the photo.

To test this, I did a reenactment. I laid on my back on top of an absorbent towel. Then I poured a significant volume of water slowly over my neck in the region where the throat slash occurred. The water runs down the neck and its flow is effected by running off the shoulders (the trapezius area, where the shoulder meets the neck). I got up and saw a wet pattern that looked like the pattern depicted in the first attachment below.

When we look at the actual blood stain in the photo, it shows no sign of this pattern. It is even across the stain. This may suggest that Travis was on his stomach for the coup de grace. During the final slice, he may have collapsed and was, in death throes, reaching up with his right hand, as if one final desperate gesture away from the monster (attachment 2 below).

This may help explain all the Jodi blood-soaked sockprint activity around Travis' body. Perhaps she was delivering back stabs, and then realizing these weren't doing the job, decided to slit his throat. Before trying to pull him back to the shower, she attempted to reposition his body, perhaps trying to get him on the duvet cover. This would have entailed attempting some maneuvers aimed at rolling him over onto the cover.

A potential implication of this may be that Travis was backing up from Jodi during the knife attack, and fell backwards in the hallway. Jodi delivered a volley of chest stabs while Travis, weakening and almost resigning, lay on his back. To gain an advantageous position, Jodi moved around over his head. In a final attempt to get away, Travis rolled over and attempted move to the bedroom on hands and knees perhaps trying to knock Jodi's feet out from under her in a last attempt to stop the attack. I would think it instinctive when one is facing an unstoppable onslaught, one will want to flip over onto one's stomach to shield the face. Travis did not succeed in knocking Jodi off her feet, she backed up as Travis collapsed, face down, on the carpet. Then she proceeded to finish him off.

Whew. I need to take a break....

Dave

If she had cut his throat while he was in his back, she would have been covered in blood. There would have been splatter all over the walls and probably the ceiling also. From the look of the stain he was lying fairly close to the floor. Two of the largest, high pressure arteries in the body were severed with that cut.

 

[pip]

If she had cut his throat while he was in his back, she would have been covered in blood. There would have been splatter all over the walls and probably the ceiling also. From the look of the stain he was lying fairly close to the floor. Two of the largest, high pressure arteries in the body were severed with that cut.

After his SVC was already hit and he hemorrhaged massively into his chest, I doubt his venous pressure nor arterial pressure would have the kind of umphh you are describing. His pressures must have been tanking at that point. But I do agree, I think he was face down when she reached under and slashed his neck, perhaps still hands and knees in his last effort to crawl away rather than with him on his back. The slice was deep and I think the under and up approach would have given her the advantage of strength to cut as deeply as she did.
If he still had the pressures you describe he would not have been in shock and would still be on his feet trying to escape.

 

[wilsodh]

If she had cut his throat while he was in his back, she would have been covered in blood. There would have been splatter all over the walls and probably the ceiling also. From the look of the stain he was lying fairly close to the floor. Two of the largest, high pressure arteries in the body were severed with that cut.

Agreed... I think the deed was done face down on the carpet. The first bloody murder photo was taken before the coup de grace. It's also not reasonable that Travis could have been lifting his head with that kind of throat wound.

After his SVC was already hit and he hemorrhaged massively into his chest, I doubt his venous pressure nor arterial pressure would have the kind of umphh you are describing. His pressures must have been tanking at that point. But I do agree, I think he was face down when she reached under and slashed his neck, perhaps still hands and knees in his last effort to crawl away rather than with him on his back. The slice was deep and I think the under and up approach would have given her the advantage of strength to cut as deeply as she did.
If he still had the pressures you describe he would not have been in shock and would still be on his feet trying to escape.

Agreed!

Dave

 

[Lorelilly]

I've always wondered how she managed that. I've tried to figure out how does she step out of all that blood in the hallway and leave no tracks. I tried to think how I would do it, and it's not easy. She has socks on in the last picture so she had to put a clean shoe on one foot, step over, put clean shoe on other foot before you put it down.

well, you get the picture lol. No bloody footprints anywhere on the rug in the bedroom.

Maybe someone carried her out of there? Or handed her the shoes? Little things like that bother me.

IMO

She may have used a towel to wipe whatever remaining blood she had off her feet then put that towel in the washer as she left the house. There were bloody towels in the washer along with the camera.

 

[Katie-L]

What about the scene is disorganized? He has shown that she brought both weapons used to kill him. Wounds from both weapons would have been fatal. It just happens that the cutting of the throat is the quickest death.

I don't believe JM has shown that she brought either weapon to the scene.

It's a theory - based on a supposition - used to support a charge of 1st degree. Prosecutors do that in cases like this. They have a set of specific facts and then have to make suppositions - guess work - based on what they think may have happened. Doesn't mean that's what occurred.

Though regardless of where the knife or gun was or who they belonged to - I think it's obvious that the cut throat would be the wound from which there was no recovery. I tend to place this wound as the last in the sequence for that reason.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I don't believe JM has shown that she brought either weapon to the scene.

It's a theory - based on a supposition - used to support a charge of 1st degree. Prosecutors do that in cases like this. They have a set of specific facts and then have to make suppositions - guess work - based on what they think may have happened. Doesn't mean that's what occurred.

Though regardless of where the knife or gun was or who they belonged to - I think it's obvious that the cut throat would be the wound from which there was no recovery. I tend to place this wound as the last in the sequence for that reason.

She obviously stole the gun from her grandparents and brought it. How is that in question?

 

[pip]

She obviously stole the gun from her grandparents and brought it. How is that in question?

No gun found, no proof. Highly circumstantial but not proven.

 

[Captain86]

After his SVC was already hit and he hemorrhaged massively into his chest, I doubt his venous pressure nor arterial pressure would have the kind of umphh you are describing. His pressures must have been tanking at that point. But I do agree, I think he was face down when she reached under and slashed his neck, perhaps still hands and knees in his last effort to crawl away rather than with him on his back. The slice was deep and I think the under and up approach would have given her the advantage of strength to cut as deeply as she did.
If he still had the pressures you describe he would not have been in shock and would still be on his feet trying to escape.

The body shunts blood to the brain at the detriment of other organs. His body would have been keeping as much flow to the brain as possible. The arteries are very muscular. They create their own pressure, so while the ceiling might not happen, there would have been some spray if he was on his back. We don't really see evidence of spray on the carpet.

 

[Captain86]

I don't believe JM has shown that she brought either weapon to the scene.

It's a theory - based on a supposition - used to support a charge of 1st degree. Prosecutors do that in cases like this. They have a set of specific facts and then have to make suppositions - guess work - based on what they think may have happened. Doesn't mean that's what occurred.

Though regardless of where the knife or gun was or who they belonged to - I think it's obvious that the cut throat would be the wound from which there was no recovery. I tend to place this wound as the last in the sequence for that reason.

No knives missing from his house. No knives in his house match the wounds. Where did the knife come from?

 

[molly333]

What kind of woman could slash someone's throat?

I think a man must have been there, too.

IMO

 

[Katie-L]

No knives missing from his house. No knives in his house match the wounds. Where did the knife come from?

There is no way to know if or whether the knife was from TA's house or not. It wasn't found.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

No gun found, no proof. Highly circumstantial but not proven.

I think we can safely infer that she took the .25 caliber from her grandparents and used it, then hid it. Way beyond a reasonable assumption.

 

[RealityMan]

Agreed... I think the deed was done face down on the carpet. The first bloody murder photo was taken before the coup de grace. It's also not reasonable that Travis could have been lifting his head with that kind of throat wound.

Yes, I think that is true. I believe there were two deep incisions to TA's shoulder/neck area that are the source of the blood in the photo (perhaps in addition to the gunshot wound).

TA later twists over and flops to the edge of the carpet before JA delivers the neck slash as the final blow.

Now, with regard to the last photo, 76 seconds later: it looks like that photo may have been before the coup de grace as well. The blood streaks look very similar and TA must be in almost the same spot (assuming the camera was on the ground and kicked).

 

[Horace Finklestein]

What kind of woman could slash someone's throat?

I think a man must have been there, too.

IMO

Don't you think JA would throw him under the bus though? I couldn't see her sitting still when someone else could get the blame. Also, women have every bit the capacity for violence as men.

 

[pip]

Agreed... I think the deed was done face down on the carpet. The first bloody murder photo was taken before the coup de grace. It's also not reasonable that Travis could have been lifting his head with that kind of throat wound.



Agreed!

Dave

Unless he is already dead and she rolled him over to his back, is pulling his arm and his head is on her leg as she begins the move back to the shower. I can't decide if she would have pulled him by the legs or arms though. If she did drag him by the arms, she would have to spin him around head first towards the bathroom.

 

[pip]

I think we can safely infer that she took the .25 caliber from her grandparents and used it, then hid it. Way beyond a reasonable assumption.

Oh I totally agree it is a reasonable assumption...I absolutely believe it is true, but it is not proven is all i'm saying.

 

[deedee21]

Jodi gets on the stand to testify. Jodi cant testify because a fog rolled in. Was she in a fog when she planned the murder. Was she in a fog when she drove to Arizona. She leaves Travises in a fog. The fog lifts and she remembers she was suppose to be rubbing up against Ryan and heads over to his place.

 

[deedee21]

What kind of woman could slash someone's throat?

I think a man must have been there, too.

IMO

A woman like JODI ARIAS.