John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"

[kanzz]

Not when I go into "rant" mode!


Are you referring to the Ramseys, or Smit's family? Not that it matters; I essentially did just that!

Ah, but I just said you can be succinct.. and see, you were again. :wink:

Gosh, this post was way back in November. I was talking about the Ramseys, because anything I'd say would of course include them. But I'll never write a book. After all that has already been published, I barely have time to read it all let alone write something!

 

[BBB167893]

Ah, but I just said you can be succinct.. and see, you were again. :wink:

With certain subjects!

 

[Granny2SamSon]

After reading these old posts, I believe that B.C. is/was FW!

 

[kanzz]

After reading these old posts, I believe that B.C. is/was FW!

Are you basing your belief on this thread alone? and are you aware of BC's theories?

 

[ghost story]

JR is an odd fellow isn't he? If he really did break the window earlier in the summer so that he could get in then most of his statements make some sense. Until he later begins his revisionist history by claiming that he had a feeling that it was all suspicious.

I find him odd because he broke a window, and even though he is a wealthy man, he doesn't bother to get it fixed.

I find him odd because he says he opens the window and leaves it open because the basement gets hot in the winter... Two things wrong with that for me. I live in the neighboring state and I know that when it's cold, like in DECEMBER, a broken window is more than sufficient to cool a whole basement down significantly without having to open a broken window with a sizeable hole in it. I also know that the basement is the coldest place in the house, year-round. So he says that he has to open the window to cool the basement down? That doesn't wash with me. He seems to be going out of his way to make this whole window "incident" seem as normal as can be. Something is odd about this and I can't put my finger on it. I realize later that he jumps on LS's theory of an entrance and/or exit for the "intruder" but before that his statements are just odd to me.

Odd, like much of his testimony, particularly his repeated use of "assume", "think", etc. makes me wonder about the guy. He assumes he broke the window! I know when I break a window to get into my house. Or I would if I had ever done it.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Are you basing your belief on this thread alone? and are you aware of BC's theories?

I had the same thought. Blue Crab had some pretty out there theories about stun gun usage and a conspiracy involving non-Ramsey minors and an Asian college organization being involved. Some of his commentary seemed to be pretty astute but I don't think FW would come up with a lot of that.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Fragments of the official situation reports made by Officer French:

https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/file-nov-23-6-43-46-pm.jpeg

And Linda Arndt:

According to French he didn't find anything suspicious with regard to possible intruder entries or exits. He even explained why he hadn't opened the WC door sufficiently. Surely he would have noticed an open broken window with glass strewn about. Note that in his entire report he conducts more than one sweep. His initial check and in consultation with JR who'd claimed he'd checked and everything was locked up, turned up no obvious break in as well.

It's also clear, from Det. Arndt's report that the broken window was, at some point, mentioned to JR, who told his story about breaking in months earlier.

So, he had to be prompted about the situation with the broken window, he did not volunteer any info about it on 12/26. So very hinky that he uses it later as a point of suspicion and possible intruder entry.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

JR is an odd fellow isn't he? If he really did break the window earlier in the summer so that he could get in then most of his statements make some sense. Until he later begins his revisionist history by claiming that he had a feeling that it was all suspicious.

I find him odd because he broke a window, and even though he is a wealthy man, he doesn't bother to get it fixed.

I find him odd because he says he opens the window and leaves it open because the basement gets hot in the winter... Two things wrong with that for me. I live in the neighboring state and I know that when it's cold, like in DECEMBER, a broken window is more than sufficient to cool a whole basement down significantly without having to open a broken window with a sizeable hole in it. I also know that the basement is the coldest place in the house, year-round. So he says that he has to open the window to cool the basement down? That doesn't wash with me. He seems to be going out of his way to make this whole window "incident" seem as normal as can be. Something is odd about this and I can't put my finger on it. I realize later that he jumps on LS's theory of an entrance and/or exit for the "intruder" but before that his statements are just odd to me.

Odd, like much of his testimony, particularly his repeated use of "assume", "think", etc. makes me wonder about the guy. He assumes he broke the window! I know when I break a window to get into my house. Or I would if I had ever done it.

I agree, especially with the bolded. What I always found weird was the way he describes climbing into the window. Not just that he is constantly "guessing" and talking about how he "would" have done it (instead of how he DID do it). And not just because he describes himself stripping down to his skivvies to climb through a dirty window with broken glass (why oh why is he always in his underpants in his stories!?). But he thinks he "probably" "would" have gone in backwards!

TT: It’s not a graceful way to get in.
JR: No, no.
TT: It’s difficult because of the angles.
JR: Right.
TT: All right.
ST: Tom, let me just ask John this. Do you sit down and slide through, buttocks first if you will, through a window like that or, do you recall how you went through the actual window, John?
JR: I don’t I mean, I don’t remember. Seems like, I mean, I don’t remember, but I think I would probably gone in feet first.
ST: Feet first, backwards?
JR: Yeah.
ST: And when you went through in your underwear, were you wearing shoes or?
JR: I still had my shoes on, yeah.

That's not how LS did it and I struggle to imagine anyone climbing in that way. So John drops into the window well, gets the window open, then turns his back to the window, and drops to his knees. Is the window well even wide enough for him to do that? Anyway, John is in his tighty-whities with his knees digging into the twigs and debris, not to mention freshly broken glass. How does he navigate through the window? It doesn't open all the way and as we saw in Smit's forward-facing demo, he had to go in sort of sideways and twist his body. I can imagine a backwards entry better if the window opened fully and he was pushing himself straight backward, but here we need to imagine he angled himself just so and then managed to push off and squeeze himself through without looking at what his body was doing. Then there's the 4-5ft drop from the window to the floor. The distance is mitigated if you're sliding in forwards on your butt with your legs bent at the knee dangling halfway down the wall. But going in backwards, John's legs would be extending straight out behind him. Very awkward.

I haven't spent much time climbing in windows forwards or backwards so maybe that isn't as odd as I imagine. Or maybe John misheard ST and meant he went in "feet first" forwards. And I don't have a clear theory as to why John (and Patsy) would lie about the circumstances surrounding the broken window. But the whole thing stinks to me.

 

[andreww]

I agree, especially with the bolded. What I always found weird was the way he describes climbing into the window. Not just that he is constantly "guessing" and talking about how he "would" have done it (instead of how he DID do it). And not just because he describes himself stripping down to his skivvies to climb through a dirty window with broken glass (why oh why is he always in his underpants in his stories!?). But he thinks he "probably" "would" have gone in backwards!


That's not how LS did it and I struggle to imagine anyone climbing in that way. So John drops into the window well, gets the window open, then turns his back to the window, and drops to his knees. Is the window well even wide enough for him to do that? Anyway, John is in his tighty-whities with his knees digging into the twigs and debris, not to mention freshly broken glass. How does he navigate through the window? It doesn't open all the way and as we saw in Smit's forward-facing demo, he had to go in sort of sideways and twist his body. I can imagine a backwards entry better if the window opened fully and he was pushing himself straight backward, but here we need to imagine he angled himself just so and then managed to push off and squeeze himself through without looking at what his body was doing. Then there's the 4-5ft drop from the window to the floor. The distance is mitigated if you're sliding in forwards on your butt with your legs bent at the knee dangling halfway down the wall. But going in backwards, John's legs would be extending straight out behind him. Very awkward.

I haven't spent much time climbing in windows forwards or backwards so maybe that isn't as odd as I imagine. Or maybe John misheard ST and meant he went in "feet first" forwards. And I don't have a clear theory as to why John (and Patsy) would lie about the circumstances surrounding the broken window. But the whole thing stinks to me.

Seems odd that the window wasn't fixed, even temporarily. It's not the cold I'd be worried about, it would be the access for mice, rats, or who knows what. Maybe it was fixed temporarily, maybe with duct tape?


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[Miz Adventure]

why oh why is he always in his underpants in his stories!?

Lol. He performed a few contortions whilst in his underwear didn't he? Getting down on his hands and knees to read the note; squeezing through that little window. Probably not a pretty sight. And dangerous too if there was broken glass around.

I suspect that telling the cops he broke the window in the summer was one of the few honest statements he made. People see that as a sign of open-ness but I suspect he had already told a number of friends and family about the incident so knew he could not lie about it.

As for house maintenance, JR probably didn't see that as his job. It was in the basement (out of sight out of mind). I think I remember reading that Patsy asked LHP to get her husband Merv to fix it but he never got round to it.

 

[AndHence]

I posted this earlier, but feel it has particular relevance to the thread right now: It's become fairly clear over the years that John didn't mention the broken window to law enforcement because he was sure they'd be able to have some way of telling that the break was fresh, i.e., made earlier that morning. He was just being cautious at that point because he didn't think the police were gonna fall for the staging in the train room. He wanted a backup story (him breaking it the previous summer) in case the police felt it looked like staging. Months later when Lou Smit miraculously came upon the scene with his intruder theory, John begins to run with the idea that the broken window was used as a point of entry by an intruder. Smit allows John to be able to maintain he broke the window and play dumb about the rest (if it was repaired, if he told Arndt, etc.).

John is simply doing what he did throughout this investigation: hedging. Did I break that window? I might have last summer. Did you get it repaired? Maybe, I can't recall. If you read the transcript of Lou and John's interview, your jaw will hit the floor. Lou practically feeds the broken window story to John, telling him the way in which he would have broken into his own house. This story is perfect for John because it covers up any evidence that the broken window was an attempt at staging AND creates an entry point for the imaginary intruder.

 

[Cottonstar]

I believe the basement window was broken the night of the murder. It was a precursor to the murder. John lied about the window being broken during the summer. His excuse is riddled with deception. The window was cleaned up the night during the staging of the crime scene. Behaviorally, this is why John did not mention the broken basement window the whole day of the 26th. If your daughter was kidnapped and you had a broken window in the basement that was found open, you would sound off with bells and whistles to LE about it. Also, if the window was part of the initial staging or idea of how an intruder could have come in, John still would have pointed LE in the direction of the window. Since he remained silent that day, tells how they were trying to show it was an inside job rather than a ransom intruder who killed JB.


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

I believe the basement window was broken the night of the murder. It was a precursor to the murder. John lied about the window being broken during the summer. His excuse is riddled with deception. The window was cleaned up the night during the staging of the crime scene. Behaviorally, this is why John did not mention the broken basement window the whole day of the 26th. If your daughter was kidnapped and you had a broken window in the basement that was found open, you would sound off with bells and whistles to LE about it. Also, if the window was part of the initial staging or idea of how an intruder could have come in, John still would have pointed LE in the direction of the window. Since he remained silent that day, tells how they were trying to show it was an inside job rather than a ransom intruder who killed JB.


cottonstar

The window wasn't broken that night. LHP was made aware of it and had asked her husband to fix it. This is why John never said it was broken that night, because he would easily be proved to be a liar. John was clear about the window being broken from day one. What is in question is as to whether that window was unlatched that night. John claimed that he found it unlatched and slightly ajar that morning and the he latched it closed. He didn't mention this until his first interview months later. John's purpose for his first trip to the basement was supposedly to look for an access point, you'd think if he found that broken window open with a suitcase proper under it, he might have pointed this out to LE? That tells me that it was likely latched and the suitcase had always been stored there.

When John was down there next, with Fleet, he'd likely already discovered the body. The gears were turning and he tells Fleet about finding the window open earlier. Lou Smit took all the pieces and built a fantasy around that. John Broke the window. John's Shoe prints are on the wall. Fleet put the piece of glass on the suitcase and moved it away from the wall to look behind it.

 

[ghost story]

I feel like there is something missing in this story of the window. Maybe something important, or maybe just a reflection of how different JR is. I thought more about him saying he left the window open because the basement was always hot. First, it's just silly to open a window 1/8 of an inch to cool the room when there is a softball sized hole in it already. Second, why is the basement always hot? Third why open a window in a room where little children play, in the winter no less! You would freeze the poor kids out. The average temp at night in Boulder in December is 21 degrees. That cold air sinks into a basement, fast. And it stays there. I've got an unfinished storage room under my front porch with basement access. Just a concrete walls and floor with a door to the basement. During the winter it's as cold or colder than my refrigerator, I know because I store all my beer there



Probably no more to this than wacky JR rambling until LS gets hold of him, but it's just weird to me.:gaah:

 

[andreww]

Probably no more to this than wacky JR rambling until LS gets hold of him, but it's just weird to me.:gaah:

Tell me one thing about any of the surviving Ramsey's that isn't "wacky". Those people had a deep discount at the Weird Store.

 

[Cottonstar]

The window wasn't broken that night. LHP was made aware of it and had asked her husband to fix it. This is why John never said it was broken that night, because he would easily be proved to be a liar. John was clear about the window being broken from day one. What is in question is as to whether that window was unlatched that night. John claimed that he found it unlatched and slightly ajar that morning and the he latched it closed. He didn't mention this until his first interview months later. John's purpose for his first trip to the basement was supposedly to look for an access point, you'd think if he found that broken window open with a suitcase proper under it, he might have pointed this out to LE? That tells me that it was likely latched and the suitcase had always been stored there.

When John was down there next, with Fleet, he'd likely already discovered the body. The gears were turning and he tells Fleet about finding the window open earlier. Lou Smit took all the pieces and built a fantasy around that. John Broke the window. John's Shoe prints are on the wall. Fleet put the piece of glass on the suitcase and moved it away from the wall to look behind it.

John knew where the body was at all times.


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

John knew where the body was at all times.


cottonstar

Thats your opinion. The evidence tells a different story.

 

[Cottonstar]

Thats your opinion. The evidence tells a different story.

I disagree. Also, LHP never knew that window was broken. In fact, she was the one who stated that JR always came inside the house via the garage, hence no need to break a window to get in. There were 104 windows on the Ramsey home; 100 of them allowed access from the outside. There are also several doors, many made of glass, like the butler pantry door and the side door to the garage and other doors on the south side where John could have easily broken out a pane and gained entry. So which entry point does John choose when reportedly locked out? Basically the most difficult damn window in the entire 7,000 square foot home. Not only that John strips down to his underwear so he isn't afraid of getting cut by the broken glass? If you read the transcripts of both Patsy and John about the window that can't even get it straight if Burke was with John or not when John purportedly broke the window. Huge red-flag. There is no proof of that smudge on the wall is John's boot print.


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

I disagree. Also, LHP never knew that window was broken. In fact, she was the one who stated that JR always came inside the house via the garage, hence no need to break a window to get in. There were 104 windows on the Ramsey home; 100 of them allowed access from the outside. There are also several doors, many made of glass, like the butler pantry door and the side door to the garage and other doors on the south side where John could have easily broken out a pane and gained entry. So which entry point does John choose when reportedly locked out? Basically the most difficult damn window in the entire 7,000 square foot home. Not only that John strips down to his underwear so he isn't afraid of getting cut by the broken glass? If you read the transcripts of both Patsy and John about the window that can't even get it straight if Burke was with John or not when John purportedly broke the window. Huge red-flag. There is no proof of that smudge on the wall is John's boot print.


cottonstar

Patsy Ramsey: "I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there. And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere."

PR: Uh, fix some shelves in the playroom and some, uh, closet doors that had come off their track and some stuff like that. And so I would, it seems to me like she and I talked about that window or did, somehow I vaguely remember that if it would have gotten fixed he very likely would be the one to fix it. And at any rate they were going to wash all the windows, so they would have known...."

John Ramsey: "No. I mean it's, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady's husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don't know if that's ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not."

Patsy says pretty consistently that LHP helped her clean the broken glass. Why would she say that if she knew LHP would call her out on it? I've seen several places stating that LHP denied knowing anything about that window but can find no credible (or uncredible for that matter) source for it. If in fact LHP denied that she'd seen that window broken, I think it would have been mentioned in at least one of the myriad of books written about this case. That's the danger of the internet, someone gives inaccurate information and six months later it's taken as fact.

Prove me wrong, I would welcome it.

 

[Cottonstar]

Patsy says pretty consistently that LHP helped her clean the broken glass. Why would she say that if she knew LHP would call her out on it? I've seen several places stating that LHP denied knowing anything about that window but can find no credible (or uncredible for that matter) source for it. If in fact LHP denied that she'd seen that window broken, I think it would have been mentioned in at least one of the myriad of books written about this case. That's the danger of the internet, someone gives inaccurate information and six months later it's taken as fact.

Prove me wrong, I would welcome it.

Wait, John and Patsy Ramsey are credible sources? Patsy "said" she didn't write the ransom note. Well, then that's that. She didn't write it. It's your prerogative that you want to believe the Ramsey's who lied about/changed their stories multiple times, then LHP, who was innocent and had no motive to lie or mislead.

Patsy also states that LHP was at the Ramsey Christmas party(Dec23)until the end(around 830)and offered to help her clean up the mess(DOI). Why would Patsy say that, when LHP says she stayed only briefly and left NLT 530?

You didn't address the window. John's story is bogus. But I think you know this.