John & the Basement

[Toltec]

Just read this last night....PMPT page 34:

White told the detectives that he had been there (ramsey home) only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenet's name. It was so cluttered down there - with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends - that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be.

He started in Burkes train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window. White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched.

***************************

Okay, White said the window was closed but not latched...this was a little after 6am.

John said that when he went down to the basement around 9am he found the window open.

 

[BlueCrab]

Okay, White said the window was closed but not latched...this was a little after 6am.

John said that when he went down to the basement around 9am he found the window open.

Toltec,

Good sleuthing. That means John was in the basement before 6:00 AM, not at 9:00 AM.

John admits he closed the window. Fleet said the window was closed when he went down to the basement at around 6:20 AM. So John had to have closed the window prior to Fleet's visit at 6:20 AM.

Besides, John couldn't have been in the basement at 9:00 AM because he was manning the phone upstairs waiting for the kidnappers call, which in the ransom note said would be between 8:00 and 10:00 AM

 

[Nehemiah]

June 23, 1998....

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I moved it and

7 entered the room. And in that picture --

8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were

9 the first one down there?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,

11 they probably went through the house a bit. I

12 don't know where they went. I heard later that

13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement

14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I

15 did alone.

16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to

17 determine your time. If you can get that down.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell

19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think

20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he

21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the

22 room, and then people started showing in this

23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is

24 the solarium.

25 And then some other officers came and I my

0281

1 impression at that time was that they did a

2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed

3 house went through the house. That had been fairly

4 early.

5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between

7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the

8 first one to go through the house.

9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were

10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until

11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So

12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,

13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were

14 going to say.

15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before

16 then or after?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

18 then I believe.

19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm

21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.

 

[BlueCrab]

REGARDING THE CLOSING OF THE WINDOW:

LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

JOHN RAMSEY: That's right.


It sure was before 8:00 AM, waaaaaay before 8:00 AM. John Ramsey admits he closed the window, so he had to have closed it before 6:20 AM because 6:20 is the time Fleet White saw the window closed. And Officer French, who was looking for a possible point of entry, didn't see the window open at 6:05 AM.

Therefore, to have closed the window, John was in the basement before the 911 call at 5:52 AM, even though he denies it and says he didn't search the basement looking for JonBenet prior to the 911 call. Since the window proves John was lying, it's only natural to wonder why he was lying. Was it because he did search the basement prior to the 911 call (just as any father would have done under similar circumstances) and during his search he found JonBenet? I think so.

Why else would John lie about not being in the basement prior to the 911 call?

IMO John found JonBenet dead around 3 or 4 AM, a family member was involved, and the staging and coverup was initiated hours prior to the 911 call. Patsy's 911 call was a performance.

The documented string of Ramsey lies make nothing they claim happened that morning believable.

BlueCrab

 

[lawman]

just regarding this aspect of the crime bluecrab, JR and PR give a quite detailed explanation of the window being broken (a few months previous by JR)and the area being cleaned by PR and LHP ( in their interviews)
however LHP has no recollection of this event happening as far as i know.anybody have any info on this ?
so this is very important i believe as far as what happened.

 

[Toltec]

You are right BlueCrab...also the fact that Patsy said "I screamed he screamed as he came up from the basement". This happened soon after discovering the note.

 

[BlueCrab]

You are right BlueCrab...also the fact that Patsy said "I screamed he screamed as he came up from the basement". This happened soon after discovering the note.

Toltec,

Correct. In Patsy's own slip of the tongue, both she and John were both screaming "as he came up from the basement" PRIOR TO THE 911 CALL, which proves John was in the basement prior to the 911 call. It was likely 3 or 4 AM and John was probably carrying JonBenet's body up from the basement at that time or they both wouldn't be screaming.

The chair blocking the door; the open window; and the screaming prior to the 911 call as John came up from the basement, proves beyond reasonable doubt that John had been in the basement and had found JonBenet's body prior to the 911 call.

Therefore, Patsy's 911 call and everything the Ramseys said that morning was a performance. The Ramseys lied. And when you uncover the liar in a murder investigation then you've also uncovered the killer. One or more of the three Ramseys in the house that night killed JonBenet.

BlueCrab

 

[lawman]

sorry toltec, i questioned one of your previous posts, you are quite correct.

however in this scenario that the R`S were indeed up and about much earlier than they say. p`s second interview might give a clue.
this involves where they are discussing the red heart on jbr`s left hand.p then explains in some detail seeing this the morning of the 26th!.

 

[Toltec]

sorry toltec, i questioned one of your previous posts, you are quite correct.

however in this scenario that the R`S were indeed up and about much earlier than they say. p`s second interview might give a clue.
this involves where they are discussing the red heart on jbr`s left hand.p then explains in some detail seeing this the morning of the 26th!.

That's okay....thanks for the additional sleuthing....the heart on JonBenet's hand...Patsy's slip of the tongue says she saw it "that morning".

 

[UKGuy]

I'm pretty sure it's either in a deposition or police interview. I say "I believe" because I don't, at the moment, have time to look up the source.

Added: I can find references to his making the bed but not a source. Will keep looking.

I did however find this which I was looking for last week.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/841487/detail.html



Former Ramsey Friend May Be Jailed

Fleet White Was With Ramsey When JonBenet's Body Was Found

GOLDEN, Colo. -- A judge plans to send a former friend of JonBenet Ramsey's family to jail for failing to appear at a criminal trial related to the girl's unsolved slaying.

Jefferson County District Judge Jane Tidball continued Monday's hearing until Friday to allow Fleet White time to get a lawyer. She did not accept White's reasoning for not appearing at the trial of Boulder lawyer Thomas Miller earlier this month, despite an assistant district attorney's request that she not sentence him to jail.

"I do intend to put you in jail, that's the bottom line," Tidball said.


[...]

White appeared without a lawyer and asked to read a statement.

"I have respect for this court," White began. "In this case, however, I did not have so much respect for this case in which I'd been subpoenaed."

He said avoiding testimony in the Miller trial was "in the best interest of the ongoing JonBenet Ramsey investigation, the best interest of the Colorado justice system and, most importantly, the best interests of my family."

Seems like its not only the Ramsey's who would prefer not to talk in too much depth, the Stines are pretty much low key also!

 

[capps]

I'm pretty sure it's either in a deposition or police interview. I say "I believe" because I don't, at the moment, have time to look up the source.

Added: I can find references to his making the bed but not a source. Will keep looking.

I did however find this which I was looking for last week.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/841487/detail.html



Former Ramsey Friend May Be Jailed

Fleet White Was With Ramsey When JonBenet's Body Was Found

GOLDEN, Colo. -- A judge plans to send a former friend of JonBenet Ramsey's family to jail for failing to appear at a criminal trial related to the girl's unsolved slaying.

Jefferson County District Judge Jane Tidball continued Monday's hearing until Friday to allow Fleet White time to get a lawyer. She did not accept White's reasoning for not appearing at the trial of Boulder lawyer Thomas Miller earlier this month, despite an assistant district attorney's request that she not sentence him to jail.

"I do intend to put you in jail, that's the bottom line," Tidball said.


[...]

White appeared without a lawyer and asked to read a statement.

"I have respect for this court," White began. "In this case, however, I did not have so much respect for this case in which I'd been subpoenaed."

He said avoiding testimony in the Miller trial was "in the best interest of the ongoing JonBenet Ramsey investigation, the best interest of the Colorado justice system and, most importantly, the best interests of my family."

I'm a little baffled here.

The Thomas Miller trial came about because Miller helped his client,(Miller said his client was a tabloid newspaper),try to buy a copy of the ransom note,which was not released to the public at the time.

So,why did they they want Fleet White to testify? How was FW involved in this at all? And why would it be,as FW said, in the best interest of the JR investigation,the Colorado justice system,and his family ... to not testify?

I must be missing something ... can someone clarify this for me?

 

[tipper]

Bumping

 

[Zman]

I'm a little baffled here.

The Thomas Miller trial came about because Miller helped his client,(Miller said his client was a tabloid newspaper),try to buy a copy of the ransom note,which was not released to the public at the time.

So,why did they they want Fleet White to testify? How was FW involved in this at all? And why would it be,as FW said, in the best interest of the JR investigation,the Colorado justice system,and his family ... to not testify?


I must be missing something ... can someone clarify this for me?

I know this really is not answering your question but....http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=30


White has had his share of trouble with Jefferson County before. In October 2001, White was sentenced to 30 days in jail by a Jefferson County judge after he ignored two subpoenas in a Ramsey -related trial.

White was subpoenaed in May and June 2001 to appear as a witness in a criminal bribery trial. He said he chose not to appear because he didn’t think he had any relevant testimony to give.

The case involved lawyer Thomas Miller, who was accused of trying to buy a copy of the ransom note found in the house. Miller was acquitted.

Thomas isn’t the only district attorney White is currently after.

Last month, White filed an affidavit claiming that Boulder County District Attorney Mary Keenan has failed to prosecute whoever leaked information from grand jury proceedings in the summer of 1999 that centered around JonBenet’s murder.

White filed a motion demanding a court hearing at which Keenan would have to explain why she refused to prosecute or cite any person who violated grand jury secrecy laws.

White has been involved in the Ramsey case since day one. He was with John Ramsey when JonBenet’s body was found in the wine cellar of the Ramsey home, and at first he supported John and Patsy Ramsey ’s claims of innocence.

At some point, White became convinced of their guilt and started a campaign to have the governor remove former District Attorney Alex Hunter and appoint an independent prosecutor to the case.

In 2000, White’s name surfaced again when a California woman came forward with allegations of ritualistic sexual abuse by a group that included people associated with the murder case, including Fleet White. Since police said the woman’s claims weren’t connected to the Ramsey case, White has been on a rampage against the media, seeking criminal libel charges against outlets who told the woman’s story.


Funny how FW is so adamant that everyone else follow the law yet see's himself above it. His obvious hatred for people with power and money rings loudly in both his letters calling for SP's in JBR's case.

Speaking of those letters they "ramble" pretty well.
What have we seen that word associated with before?
He seems strongly convinced of the R's guilt. He must not think much of them. I wonder if he thought much of them before JBR's murder?

 

[capps]

I know this really is not answering your question but....http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=30


White has had his share of trouble with Jefferson County before. In October 2001, White was sentenced to 30 days in jail by a Jefferson County judge after he ignored two subpoenas in a Ramsey -related trial.

White was subpoenaed in May and June 2001 to appear as a witness in a criminal bribery trial. He said he chose not to appear because he didn’t think he had any relevant testimony to give.

The case involved lawyer Thomas Miller, who was accused of trying to buy a copy of the ransom note found in the house. Miller was acquitted.

Thomas isn’t the only district attorney White is currently after.

Last month, White filed an affidavit claiming that Boulder County District Attorney Mary Keenan has failed to prosecute whoever leaked information from grand jury proceedings in the summer of 1999 that centered around JonBenet’s murder.

White filed a motion demanding a court hearing at which Keenan would have to explain why she refused to prosecute or cite any person who violated grand jury secrecy laws.

White has been involved in the Ramsey case since day one. He was with John Ramsey when JonBenet’s body was found in the wine cellar of the Ramsey home, and at first he supported John and Patsy Ramsey ’s claims of innocence.

At some point, White became convinced of their guilt and started a campaign to have the governor remove former District Attorney Alex Hunter and appoint an independent prosecutor to the case.

In 2000, White’s name surfaced again when a California woman came forward with allegations of ritualistic sexual abuse by a group that included people associated with the murder case, including Fleet White. Since police said the woman’s claims weren’t connected to the Ramsey case, White has been on a rampage against the media, seeking criminal libel charges against outlets who told the woman’s story.


Funny how FW is so adamant that everyone else follow the law yet see's himself above it. His obvious hatred for people with power and money rings loudly in both his letters calling for SP's in JBR's case.

Speaking of those letters they "ramble" pretty well.
What have we seen that word associated with before?
He seems strongly convinced of the R's guilt. He must not think much of them. I wonder if he thought much of them before JBR's murder?

Zman,

Thanks for all your info! I didn't notice your reply until just now...sorry.

There is something unsettling about Fleet to me. I can't quite put my finger on it yet ... but it's there.We'll see ......

 

[tipper]

Zman,

Thanks for all your info! I didn't notice your reply until just now...sorry.

There is something unsettling about Fleet to me. I can't quite put my finger on it yet ... but it's there.We'll see ......

How 'bout this...?


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/841487/detail.html

Former Ramsey Friend May Be Jailed

Fleet White Was With Ramsey When JonBenet's Body Was Found

GOLDEN, Colo. -- A judge plans to send a former friend of JonBenet Ramsey's family to jail for failing to appear at a criminal trial related to the girl's unsolved slaying.

[…]

White appeared without a lawyer and asked to read a statement.

"I have respect for this court," White began. "In this case, however, I did not have so much respect for this case in which I'd been subpoenaed."

[…]

 

[sissi]

John didn't know Fleet had made a trip into the basement. Maybe he didn't!
He said he moved things, opened doors, touched glass,etc., just maybe he "needed" to be certain any prints found could be justified. The murderer was careful not to leave prints, should we expect they found White's down there on surfaces? If not...WHY NOT! White is cleared by dna, so he didn't do it,yet the Ramseys remain under suspicion , they are cleared by dna ,as well.
Stopping to touch the tape, when your friend is hysterically carrying his dead child up the steps was as hinky as everything else he has done. Spending "quality" dining hours with Steve Thomas was a bit over the "top", as well.

 

[BlueCrab]

John didn't know Fleet had made a trip into the basement. Maybe he didn't!
He said he moved things, opened doors, touched glass,etc., just maybe he "needed" to be certain any prints found could be justified. The murderer was careful not to leave prints, should we expect they found White's down there on surfaces? If not...WHY NOT! White is cleared by dna, so he didn't do it,yet the Ramseys remain under suspicion , they are cleared by dna ,as well.
Stopping to touch the tape, when your friend is hysterically carrying his dead child up the steps was as hinky as everything else he has done. Spending "quality" dining hours with Steve Thomas was a bit over the "top", as well.

sissi,

Fleet was "guarding" the door to the basement, per Arndt's instructions, when he went back down into the basement and picked up the duct tape, not when John was carrying JonBenet upstairs.

sissi, Fleet White has been cleared.

 

[sissi]

OOPS! Yes BC, you are right, he claims he went down after.
But......who saw him? Why didn't Arndt see him? His "claimed" trip in the early a.m. was stealth ,as well. How does he move, he's a LARGE man, so swiftly and secretly?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

This window in the basement...is this the same window with the spider web across it? Didn't they prove that no one could have gained access through that window without destroying the web, and that the spider did not have enough time to spin it again?

 

[tipper]

I think the consensus was that although it was possible the web could be either left intact or respun it wasn't likely. What would have been more telling is the color of the grass found under the grate.