JonBenet Ramsey's father calls beauty pageants "very bizarre"

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Of course Burke might not have been there. Why don't we just mandate neither Burke or Patsy was present since as you suggest fingerprints do not carry a time?

For the same reason we don't assume they were there -the one thing you've got right is that fingerprints don't have a time stamp.

Burke has corroborating evidence, Patsy does not. Its that simple.

More fingerprints don't corroborate.

Your alternative scenario does not explain all the facts, it just contradicts my interpretation. In a panglossian world of first order logic that is nice, but does not allow for much progress.

.

I don't know of an explanation that explains everything.

 

[Chrishope]

Yes, it is a something a child would do. As Patsy pointed out- "I wouldn't do this set-up" (the big serving spoon in the small bowl). But - that could be Patsy distancing BR from the pineapple as well. Really, at the end of the day it doesn't matter. We have the FACT that JB did eat pineapple that night after returning home, I feel fairly certain her parents knew she was awake, whether or not they knew she ate the pineapple. We KNOW no intruder fed her pineapple. So who she was with really doesn't mean much. Her parents and brother KNOW what happened that night, to varying extent, and we will never know who was with her when she ate it. I am sure that was one of the questions the BPD wanted to ask BR when they requested he speak to them this past year, and I an SURE that was one question he (and his lawyers) did not want him to answer.

That's probably the most important thing about the pineapple.

 

[midwest mama]

Yes, it is a something a child would do. As Patsy pointed out- "I wouldn't do this set-up" (the big serving spoon in the small bowl). But - that could be Patsy distancing BR from the pineapple as well. Really, at the end of the day it doesn't matter. We have the FACT that JB did eat pineapple that night after returning home, I feel fairly certain her parents knew she was awake, whether or not they knew she ate the pineapple. We KNOW no intruder fed her pineapple. So who she was with really doesn't mean much. Her parents and brother KNOW what happened that night, to varying extent, and we will never know who was with her when she ate it. I am sure that was one of the questions the BPD wanted to ask BR when they requested he speak to them this past year, and I an SURE that was one question he (and his lawyers) did not want him to answer.

Agree mostly, but these two statements seem contradictory.

If both parents are to be believed that they had no knowledge of JB eating pineapple, and we consider the bowl found out on the table with the fingerprints of Burke and Patsy on it supplied the pineapple she ate, then we have to consider Burke might have been with her.

Unless she was alone at the time. Not impossible she was, but if so, that makes it possible her killer was at her side very quickly after she ate, interfering with her eating more, which would account for a small amount found during the autopsy. If it would have been a stranger, she would have shrieked. Only a known person could have gotten anywhere near her.

If Burke was with her, that opens a portal to a great possibility of him being involved in the events of her death OR knowing if another person came into their presence very soon, perhaps sending him up to bed, since not much time passed between her eating the pineapple and her death.

And, if Burke was with her, got sent off to bed, isn't is possible he even might have heard something from his room? Like the supposed scream that was reported by the neighbor?

So, in the event Burke knew who made JB scream, if it wasn't him, and it was only one known person (clever enough to not leave any identifiable forensic evidence= most likely a parent, but perhaps another known party), that means at least one of the parents might actually be totally innocent? :moo:

 

[ozazure]

Right, but my question is this - why did they choose the story -"She was asleep in the car and carried to bed" in the first place? They knew she had been whacked on the head with something heavy. They knew a cord had choked the remaining life out of her. The body was going to be found because it was still in the house. If they were working together they had to know there would be an autopsy. So, why not just say the family came home, JB was hungry, she had a snack of pineapple, then went to bed. Later, the boogeyman got her. The intruder theory isn't less believable just because she had a snack before going to bed.

I wonder this also, what happened before the crime started taking place that needed to be hidden? At some point the little girl was eating pineapple, things were calm enough at the point, at least for JB, for that to happen. She isn't likely being abused while eating it. What interaction needed to be erased from the narrative?

It seems like it was a simple revision of events, maybe designed that way so Burke would not mess it up. And yet the story does get messed up, doesn't Burke say at one point she walked in to the house and John say he read her a story? And ultimately there is evidence she was awake.

Maybe it is as simple that because JonBenet never made it to bed, they needed to decide when she did go to bed in their story and so making it immediately on her return home was easiest?

 

[Chrishope]

I wonder this also, what happened before the crime started taking place that needed to be hidden? At some point the little girl was eating pineapple, things were calm enough at the point, at least for JB, for that to happen. She isn't likely being abused while eating it. What interaction needed to be erased from the narrative?

It seems like it was a simple revision of events, maybe designed that way so Burke would not mess it up. And yet the story does get messed up, doesn't Burke say at one point she walked in to the house and John say he read her a story? And ultimately there is evidence she was awake.

Maybe it is as simple that because JonBenet never made it to bed, they needed to decide when she did go to bed in their story and so making it immediately on her return home was easiest?

I think that's it, that story is the easiest. But, if both JR and PR were working together on a cover up, and if either of them knew of the pineapple, then they'd have made the snack part of the story they told police because they'd have to know there would be an autopsy. IOWs, they probably picked the easy story because the didn't know of the pineapple eating.

 

[UKGuy]

For the same reason we don't assume they were there -the one thing you've got right is that fingerprints don't have a time stamp.



More fingerprints don't corroborate.




I don't know of an explanation that explains everything.

Chrishope,
You bet they do. Especially when found on different objects at the same location. Just like Patsy's fibers!

I don't know of an explanation that explains everything.

That is evident from your posts, you do not appear to have any one particular explanation, never mind one that is universal.

It could be argued that Patsy was present but withheld this information from John.


Assuming that both parents were ignorant about the pineapple snack, then it seems safe to assert that Burke was present, possibly even serving up the pineapple snack?

Remember another point of corroboration is Burke Ramsey's amnesia on this particular subject.

The only other explanation is that JonBenet snacked pineapple on her own and that all the surrounding evidence is circumstantial.

I prefer the explanation where Burke Ramsey is present.



.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, it is a something a child would do. As Patsy pointed out- "I wouldn't do this set-up" (the big serving spoon in the small bowl). But - that could be Patsy distancing BR from the pineapple as well. Really, at the end of the day it doesn't matter. We have the FACT that JB did eat pineapple that night after returning home, I feel fairly certain her parents knew she was awake, whether or not they knew she ate the pineapple. We KNOW no intruder fed her pineapple. So who she was with really doesn't mean much. Her parents and brother KNOW what happened that night, to varying extent, and we will never know who was with her when she ate it. I am sure that was one of the questions the BPD wanted to ask BR when they requested he speak to them this past year, and I an SURE that was one question he (and his lawyers) did not want him to answer.

DeeDee249,
When Hofstrom and Schuler interviewed Burke; Shuler asked if he ate any pineapple and when he went to bed. Burke replied he didn’t remember.

If the parents had known JonBenet snacked pineapple it would have been factored into their version of events.

So you can conclude JonBenet must have fetched and snacked pineapple all by herself.

But with Burke's fingerprints to be found on two different pieces of tableware and a used teabag in the glass, knowing that he was the resident tea-drinker, all seems to add up to Burke being present while JonBenet snacked pineapple.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
When Hofstrom and Schuler interviewed Burke; Shuler asked if he ate any pineapple and when he went to bed. Burke replied he didn’t remember.

If the parents had known JonBenet snacked pineapple it would have been factored into their version of events.

So you can conclude JonBenet must have fetched and snacked pineapple all by herself.

But with Burke's fingerprints to be found on two different pieces of tableware and a used teabag in the glass, knowing that he was the resident tea-drinker, all seems to add up to Burke being present while JonBenet snacked pineapple.


.

I am sure BR was coached to say "I don't remember" to ALL questions about his whereabouts and events of that night. After all, Patsy used the same excuse. Their lawyers deliberately delayed their interviews with LE just so that they could use that excuse of not remembering because it had been so long.

 

[UKGuy]

I am sure BR was coached to say "I don't remember" to ALL questions about his whereabouts and events of that night. After all, Patsy used the same excuse. Their lawyers deliberately delayed their interviews with LE just so that they could use that excuse of not remembering because it had been so long.

DeeDee249,
Absolutely. Not every question was answered with amnesia. This is what makes Burkes answer so interesting.

I reckon, after the event, Patsy and John must have grilled Burke, then decided on the amnesia answer.

Because Burke might have innocently been present at the pineapple snack. This event can be independent from JonBenet's subsequent death.

For some reason, we seem to have Patsy ignorant regarding crucial events on the night of JonBenet's death, e.g. pineapple snack, and the size-12's.

Its as if Patsy became involved towards the end?


.

 

[txsvicki]

Patsy showed zero interest in what her kids were eating, imo, according to interviews and as compared to John talking of the traditional breakfast and Priscilla making sure that Jonbenet got some crab. There probably would have been more of a mess, but Burke could have had to scavenge whatever he could find for lunch. I think it was his snack though and he got whatever dishes he could find clean out of the dishwasher or cabinet.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Absolutely. Not every question was answered with amnesia. This is what makes Burkes answer so interesting.

I reckon, after the event, Patsy and John must have grilled Burke, then decided on the amnesia answer.

Because Burke might have innocently been present at the pineapple snack. This event can be independent from JonBenet's subsequent death.

For some reason, we seem to have Patsy ignorant regarding crucial events on the night of JonBenet's death, e.g. pineapple snack, and the size-12's.

Its as if Patsy became involved towards the end?

.

Patsy's involvement at the end fits in with a BDI theory. Obviously not in PDI and not sure about JDI.
I agree that the pineapple snack had nothing to do with the crime, whether BR was there or not. If he was, his presence WAS innocent, even if he was involved in what happened later.
The pineapple is an innocent event that had to be lied about because of its implication in JB being awake after they arrived home. The pineapple required a lie because JB being awake required a lie. Nothing more.
The size 12s are another story. They have no innocent explanation, in my mind, because Patsy lied about the putting them in JB's panty drawer. The only reason for her to lie about the panties is that they are PART of the crime- they were put on her dead (or dying body) after her original panties became soiled or bloodied.
There are so many layers to the Rs lies. So many possibilities as to what she was wearing. Pink nightie- longjohns and white shirt, longjohns and red turtleneck, etc. They ALL have something suspicious about them. The pink nightie has blood on it and was found with the body but not ON the body, and JR said to LE that "it wasn't supposed to be there". The red turtleneck is suspicious because Patsy originally lied about that too, saying JB wore it to the party when photos proved she didn't. And it was found balled up near the sink outside JB's room. It is unclear whether it was wet, soiled or neither.
And of course, the white shirt and longjohns were found on her.
I guarantee you that an innocent parent WOULD HAVE remembered what their murdered child wore to bed the last time they saw her.
I guarantee you that John Walsh remembers what his son Adam was wearing when he was abducted from that store in Florida. And that Megan Kanka's mother remembers what she was wearing the last time she left the house to ride her bike. These things stay in a parent's mind even years later.
It wasn't THAT long after JB's murder...yet they used the "Ramnesia" excuse at every turn.

 

[qtc]

The size 12s are another story. They have no innocent explanation, in my mind, because Patsy lied about the putting them in JB's panty drawer. The only reason for her to lie about the panties is that they are PART of the crime- they were put on her dead (or dying body) after her original panties became soiled or bloodied.

I dont understand why the size 12's were used. Why wasnt a pair of her size 6 underwear from her drawer put on her after the bloodied/soiled ones were taken off?

Is it believed that those size 12's for Jenny were in the basement with the other gifts? And were they already wrapped in christmas paper?

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy's involvement at the end fits in with a BDI theory. Obviously not in PDI and not sure about JDI.
I agree that the pineapple snack had nothing to do with the crime, whether BR was there or not. If he was, his presence WAS innocent, even if he was involved in what happened later.
The pineapple is an innocent event that had to be lied about because of its implication in JB being awake after they arrived home. The pineapple required a lie because JB being awake required a lie. Nothing more.
The size 12s are another story. They have no innocent explanation, in my mind, because Patsy lied about the putting them in JB's panty drawer. The only reason for her to lie about the panties is that they are PART of the crime- they were put on her dead (or dying body) after her original panties became soiled or bloodied.
There are so many layers to the Rs lies. So many possibilities as to what she was wearing. Pink nightie- longjohns and white shirt, longjohns and red turtleneck, etc. They ALL have something suspicious about them. The pink nightie has blood on it and was found with the body but not ON the body, and JR said to LE that "it wasn't supposed to be there". The red turtleneck is suspicious because Patsy originally lied about that too, saying JB wore it to the party when photos proved she didn't. And it was found balled up near the sink outside JB's room. It is unclear whether it was wet, soiled or neither.
And of course, the white shirt and longjohns were found on her.
I guarantee you that an innocent parent WOULD HAVE remembered what their murdered child wore to bed the last time they saw her.
I guarantee you that John Walsh remembers what his son Adam was wearing when he was abducted from that store in Florida. And that Megan Kanka's mother remembers what she was wearing the last time she left the house to ride her bike. These things stay in a parent's mind even years later.
It wasn't THAT long after JB's murder...yet they used the "Ramnesia" excuse at every turn.

DeeDee249,

The pineapple is an innocent event that had to be lied about because of its implication in JB being awake after they arrived home. The pineapple required a lie because JB being awake required a lie. Nothing more.

I agree, it appears as a non-event to the R's, they neglected it in their version of events.

There are so many layers to the Rs lies. So many possibilities as to what she was wearing. Pink nightie- longjohns and white shirt, longjohns and red turtleneck, etc. They ALL have something suspicious about them. The pink nightie has blood on it and was found with the body but not ON the body,

The clothes JonBenet was wearing when found in the wine-cellar are staged so to lend an air of normality, match the R's version of events, and hide any sign of injury, i.e. blood seeping.

The pink nightgown obviously played some role. This is likely what JonBenet was wearing either when initially assaulted or what she was staged to wear in a first round of staging?

With no blood on the exterior of JonBenet's clothing, the nightgown is then linked to activity when JonBenet was naked from the waist down!!!

I guarantee you that an innocent parent WOULD HAVE remembered what their murdered child wore to bed the last time they saw her.

Of course. Especially if you said you undressed your child. On both occassions when Patsy attended JonBenet, e.g. bathing and undressing, she has a memory lapse, lol, soo convenient.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I dont understand why the size 12's were used. Why wasnt a pair of her size 6 underwear from her drawer put on her after the bloodied/soiled ones were taken off?

Is it believed that those size 12's for Jenny were in the basement with the other gifts? And were they already wrapped in christmas paper?

qtc,

I dont understand why the size 12's were used. Why wasnt a pair of her size 6 underwear from her drawer put on her after the bloodied/soiled ones were taken off?

Especially when we know whomever redressed JonBenet fetched the longjohns from upstairs.

Many think the R's simply wanted JonBenet to be wearing a Wednesday, day of the week nderwear to match their version of events. Even JonBenet's tombstone has her day of death as the Wednesday!

Is it believed that those size 12's for Jenny were in the basement with the other gifts? And were they already wrapped in christmas paper?

Who knows, there has never been any details released regarding the partially wrapped gifts. What the status of the barbie doll was, or the days of the week of the underwear removed from her bathroom underwear drawer. Which frustrates any attempt to arrive at a settled view.

.

 

[txsvicki]

Would Kolar or anyone have given out the info if Jonbenet's touch dna had been found on the panties or longjohns? It would be easier to form a theory if we knew for sure. Since jonbenet was awake it doesn't make sense to let her sleep in a gown instead of something she could just get up and wear on the plane ride. Since she was awake she should have put them on herself and left dna. I'm wondering if she got the head bash while still in her black pants and maybe grabbed a piece of pineapple on her way through the kitchen. If so, then it leads right back to Patsy maybe doing something in the next half hour or so after John went to bed and Burke upstairs playing nintendo.

 

[DeeDee249]

I dont understand why the size 12's were used. Why wasnt a pair of her size 6 underwear from her drawer put on her after the bloodied/soiled ones were taken off?

Is it believed that those size 12's for Jenny were in the basement with the other gifts? And were they already wrapped in christmas paper?

In my opinion, they wouldn't want to risk going back to her room/bathroom panty drawer to get another pair of her own. Police reported that ALL of her panties found in the house were stained with fecal matter. Nedra said that it was because she never wiped herself properly, which is odd because she supposedly always asked an adult to wipe her. Any adult. Possibly Patsy wanted her to be wearing clean panties when she was found, as she knew the body would be undressed. But I think the main reason was not wanting to go upstairs to get them.

 

[dodie20]

So, could he have enticed JB to the dining area with the pineapple?

Or maybe JB went to tell Burke she was hungry, and he offered to help her with a snack, choosing the pineapple with cream because it was handy in the refrigerator?

If both the kids were up still goofing around with Christmas gifts, and Patsy was upstairs doing trip things, the pineapple treat might have seemed like a good snack idea?

Using a large serving spoon is something a child would do.

just curious, because I think I missed something somewhere, but a lot of people think BR may have enticed JB with the promise of pineapple. Was there something in Kolar's book that indicated that BR used food to bribe JB in the past? Also, is there something somewhere about PR withholding food from JB? because I'm not understanding how food, especially food that JB had other ways to get, would work as an enticement. moo

 

[DeeDee249]

just curious, because I think I missed something somewhere, but a lot of people think BR may have enticed JB with the promise of pineapple. Was there something in Kolar's book that indicated that BR used food to bribe JB in the past? Also, is there something somewhere about PR withholding food from JB? because I'm not understanding how food, especially food that JB had other ways to get, would work as an enticement. moo

I don't recall seeing where BR used food to bribe JB. I don't see that Patsy withheld food from her, but there was one occasion where she told another mom that McDonalds made you fat or something to that effect, so I assume Patsy told her that and may have made comments about not eating certain things.

 

[midwest mama]

I don't recall seeing where BR used food to bribe JB. I don't see that Patsy withheld food from her, but there was one occasion where she told another mom that McDonalds made you fat or something to that effect, so I assume Patsy told her that and may have made comments about not eating certain things.

Here's a statement that verifies the comments about JB liking pineapple so much - and probably leads to why some feel that JB's attacker might have used the pineapple to attract JB to the kitchen for a treat.

ST ( Book) Page 137

"We tried to get information about bedtime snacks and managed to learn that the girl loved grapes, sliced apples, and fruit of all kinds, especially pineapple. Give her a whole can and she'd eat it. We knew she ate pineapple the night she died, and now her grandmother told us how much the child loved it."

 

[DeeDee249]

Here's a statement that verifies the comments about JB liking pineapple so much - and probably leads to why some feel that JB's attacker might have used the pineapple to attract JB to the kitchen for a treat.

ST ( Book) Page 137

"We tried to get information about bedtime snacks and managed to learn that the girl loved grapes, sliced apples, and fruit of all kinds, especially pineapple. Give her a whole can and she'd eat it. We knew she ate pineapple the night she died, and now her grandmother told us how much the child loved it."

I've read that before in ST's book and other places. It was well known she loved pineapple. I don't believe there was an intruder and doubt a stranger would know she liked pineapple anyway, and doubt she'd have gone with a stranger to eat it, liking it or not. If BR was the enticer I am sure she'd have thought it was a good idea, but his bribing her is something that may or may not have happened. If she liked pineapple that much, she probably wouldn't need to be bribed, especially by BR.
Patsy said she always had pineapple for JB in the house. I read an interview with Patsy long ago where she said she used to get fresh pineapple, but she bought it already cut up at the grocery store.
Who she was with when she ate it doesn't change much. She ate it- that is indisputable. I feel it had to be BR. And his refusal to talk to police about that night proves (to me anyway) that he was with her at some point after they got home and I feel he was with her as she ate that pineapple.