JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[Heymom]

Well I just don't know why Spitz keeps hanging onto his statement that the hole in JonBenet's skull was a rectangle. A scientist of his caliber should recognize his own mistakes and biases and when he's wrong, admit to it and move forward.

 

[johnjay]

Well I just don't know why Spitz keeps hanging onto his statement that the hole in JonBenet's skull was a rectangle. A scientist of his caliber should recognize his own mistakes and biases and when he's wrong, admit to it and move forward.

Maybe he just feels he'll loose his general audience if he says things like: "A skull fracture in an irregular ovoid shape ..."
And he seems prone to use exaggerated terms like "perfect fit", which depends on how perfect your perfect is.

 

[Heymom]

Maybe he just feels he'll loose his general audience if he says things like: "A skull fracture in an irregular ovoid shape ..."
And he seems prone to use exaggerated terms like "perfect fit", which depends on how perfect your perfect is.

I guess he likes his story more than he likes the truth....Maybe like Steve Thomas stuck to his "toilet rage" theory through thick and thin. But what if the MagLite *wasn't* the murder weapon, Dr. Spitz? Then what?

 

[hawkmom]

Was there a hose in the basement?

 

[OliviaG1996]

I guess he likes his story more than he likes the truth....Maybe like Steve Thomas stuck to his "toilet rage" theory through thick and thin. But what if the MagLite *wasn't* the murder weapon, Dr. Spitz? Then what?

The murder weapon make no difference as to who the perpetrator was. Dr. Spitz's theory wouldn't suffer much if he was wrong about it. I also don't understand the animosity going on around here surrounding Spitz. I disagree with his view of the sexual assault and Steve's Thomas's theory in general, but does that makes them dishonest? None of us here know the "truth" about the weapon, otherwise we'd all have the same opinion.

 

[johnjay]

I guess he likes his story more than he likes the truth....Maybe like Steve Thomas stuck to his "toilet rage" theory through thick and thin. But what if the MagLite *wasn't* the murder weapon, Dr. Spitz? Then what?

I don't understand why some are so hung up on his "rectangular" description. To a rough approximation that seems like a reasonable enough description to me. I wouldn't call it untrue - just a rough approximation. It's not like irregular ovoid is going to communicate more to most people. And sadly, anyone can see for themselves what the exact shape of the injury is. (I don't know why that is, I feel very sorry for John Ramsey than his daughter's skull is on such public view.)

I suspect some people are very invested in their own theory of what the weapon was and have put considerable work in trying to figure it out. But as far as I know, they haven't cracked any skull models to show what kind of injury their weapon of choice makes. Where the golf club hits the skull is what I'd like to see - maybe it'll be a better fit - maybe not.

I'll just add, unless Burke, John, or Patsy got a new golf club for Christmas, I find it odd that the clubs would be swinging that time of year.

 

[johnjay]

The murder weapon make no difference as to who the perpetrator was. Dr. Spitz's theory wouldn't suffer much if he was wrong about it. I also don't understand the animosity going on around here surrounding Spitz. I disagree with his view of the sexual assault and Steve's Thomas's theory in general, but does that makes them dishonest? None of us here know the "truth" about the weapon, otherwise we'd all have the same opinion.

It does make some difference to the theory CBS put out. Their theory involved JonBenet sneaking some pineapple and Burke loosing it and whacking her on the head with a handy flashlight for a weapon. Why would there be a baseball bat or golf club in the kitchen for him to whack her with?

 

[OliviaG1996]

It does make some difference to the theory CBS put out. Their theory involved JonBenet sneaking some pineapple and Burke loosing it and whacking her on the head with a handy flashlight for a weapon. Why would there be a baseball bat or golf club in the kitchen for him to whack her with?

Probably the same reason there were feces stains everywhere and broken glass in the room where the kids played. These people were messy.

 

[Annapurna]

Was there a hose in the basement?

Not that I've ever seen or heard of. Like a garden hose?

 

[TeaTime]

Spitz has conducted about 60,000 autopsies, which is exactly about 60,000 more than me, so I defer to his expertise on the subject. To me, the hole left by the piece of missing skull is rectangular. No, it is not an exact rectangle but we will never see that in nature anyway. And, the flashlight fits the empty space. I hardly think this was the only time someone experimented with an object to try to determine the weapon used to bash this child's skull but rather this is the one object that fits.

The flashlight head is curved and cone shaped. It hit a curved surface and I can see the outline of the cone-shaped head of the flashlight in the empty space where bone once was. The impact is not going to leave a perfectly clean hole in the skull as the bone will fracture around the area of impact. It just doesn't have to be so complicated. Sometimes, a flashlight is a murder weapon. And, when numerous experts and witnesses say it is an exact fit, I have to take their word for it.

 

[PositiveLight]

Spitz has conducted about 60,000 autopsies, which is exactly about 60,000 more than me, so I defer to his expertise on the subject. To me, the hole left by the piece of missing skull is rectangular. No, it is not an exact rectangle but we will never see that in nature anyway. And, the flashlight fits the empty space. I hardly think this was the only time someone experimented with an object to try to determine the weapon used to bash this child's skull but rather this is the one object that fits.

The flashlight head is curved and cone shaped. It hit a curved surface and I can see the outline of the cone-shaped head of the flashlight in the empty space where bone once was. The impact is not going to leave a perfectly clean hole in the skull as the bone will fracture around the area of impact. It just doesn't have to be so complicated. Sometimes, a flashlight is a murder weapon. And, when numerous experts and witnesses say it is an exact fit, I have to take their word for it.

That's how I feel too. I don't think it would break perfectly. But it cannot be ruled out that it was the flashlight. With it being wiped clean, it tells me it played an important role in the crime. More than likely Burke was confronted on what he did and he fessed up. So he probably told them everything. In a way I think he may have enjoyed telling them if you watch his interviews. He seemed to enjoy seeing his mother suffer. So hopefully his butt will be defending his "I didn't do it" in court. If I understand correctly, he will have to prove he didn't commit the crime. That will be tough considering he's already put himself downstairs during the time period she was injured and killed. JMOO

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[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-golf-clubs.htm

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Golf Clubs and Golfing)


0275
8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.
9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a
10 golfer, I assume?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.
12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
18 clothes are missing there?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
24 no.
25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph


0276
1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
2 the crime scene investigation after the search
3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
7 were there. And that's before the body was found.
8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a
10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
11 of place and anything which would draw your
12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
13 remember?

0276
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
16 like.
17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
19 it.
20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
25 been moved between the time this picture was taken


0277
1 and this picture was taken?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane
3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the
4 picture.
5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little
7 marks
8 are right on the heel in the back hallway.


0642
20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day
21 after this happened, being on the phone talking
22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.

 

[TeaTime]

JR explained that a friend of his was going somewhere on vacation and was to play golf while there, JR offered his clubs to his friend. He thought about how the friend wouldn't be able to get the clubs if he hadn't already.

 

[singularity]

Can otg, UK, Dee or someone refresh my memory on where "wiped clean" originated from? JUst because no prints were found doesn't mean it was wiped clean.

On the subject of potential weapons, you can add that brick to the list.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-golf-clubs.htm

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Golf Clubs and Golfing)


0275
8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.
9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a
10 golfer, I assume?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.
12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
18 clothes are missing there?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
24 no.
25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph


0276
1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
2 the crime scene investigation after the search
3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
7 were there. And that's before the body was found.
8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a
10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
11 of place and anything which would draw your
12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
13 remember?

0276
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
16 like.
17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
19 it.
20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
25 been moved between the time this picture was taken


0277
1 and this picture was taken?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane
3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the
4 picture.
5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little
7 marks
8 are right on the heel in the back hallway.


0642
20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day
21 after this happened, being on the phone talking
22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.

The Smit "interrogation" is unfortunately bordering on worthless. Its like two best buds kicking back, eating chicken wings, and talking football.

The extent that Smit leads him makes me want to scream. Kane wasn't any better.

I guess he likes his story more than he likes the truth....Maybe like Steve Thomas stuck to his "toilet rage" theory through thick and thin. But what if the MagLite *wasn't* the murder weapon, Dr. Spitz? Then what?

Amen.

The murder weapon make no difference as to who the perpetrator was. Dr. Spitz's theory wouldn't suffer much if he was wrong about it.

Oh really?

He's pushing a very simplistic BDI scenario. If he's wrong about the weapon he could just as easily(more easily) be wrong about the attack happening almost instantly in the midst of pineapple snacking.

Then there's nothing left to his theory.

So yeah....it makes a difference.

 

[OliviaG1996]

<Snipped for brevity>



Oh really?

Yup.

He's pushing a very simplistic BDI scenario. If he's wrong about the weapon he could just as easily(more easily) be wrong about the attack happening almost instantly in the midst of pineapple snacking.

What's more simplistic is the thought that since Spitz may be wrong about the murder weapon (which I have yet to see proof of), then he's probably wrong about everything else. Not all murder cases are black-and-white. It's possible to be wrong about one thing and not another. I'm sure you don't agree with every part of Steve Thomas's theory (I'm assuming you're still PDI).

Then there's nothing left to his theory.

So yeah....it makes a difference.

There's nothing left to Spitz's theory of BDI if he was wrong about one piece of evidence? Nothing? I disagree.

 

[Tortoise]

It's all about attention to detail. Can those who think the autopsy pictures show a 'roughly rectangular' hole in the skull really not see the very distinct narrowing at each end of the ovoid, or the almost perfect symmetry of the shape? As Spitz demonstrated, a whack with the flashlight also left a large irregular break, like a pointed beard for want of a better description. That is because the flashlight is more than just its cutting edge head, it has a body and a handle trailing behind it too.

But there is really little point in discussing it if people prefer to defer to an expert opinion, without checking the accuracy of what the expert says.

Think about symmetry. To cause a symmetrical shape, you're either looking for a symmetrical object exactly the shape of the hole that punched out a piece of bone, let's say the edge of a large flattish circular shower head, or you need something thin like a rod which with enough force crushes an equal surrounding area of curved skull either side of the rod, as it strikes. I think the rod like object is more likely just because there are more objects shaped like rods than there are objects exactly shaped like the ovoid hole in the skull.

The best demonstration of this is otg's tests with an egg and the long handle of a wooden spoon.

The picture posted by Johnjay (showing the result of the demo with the flashlight) shows the tip of the flashlight can produce this same curved phenomenon described in the rod example (on one side only), if it comes down much like a cutting edge on a curved skull, but then because it isn't a rod, and has a body and handle extension, you are left with the trailing beard like shape, and symmetry goes out the window. There is no trailing hole in JonBenet's skull, it is narrow and perfectly symmetrical.

Therefore the link between Burke using the flashlight that night and the incident that led to JonBenet's death is broken.

 

[Sparko96]

Actually this is a ridiculous skirmish into the unknown. No one on here is in a position to know empirically. Probably just need to wait for more GJ evidence to be released. The flash anger motive or careful set up does not change the BDI scenario. Academic too since he can't be charged. Spitz has moved the case along so we might actually learn something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[johnjay]

It's all about attention to detail. Can those who think the autopsy pictures show a 'roughly rectangular' hole in the skull really not see the very distinct narrowing at each end of the ovoid, or the almost perfect symmetry of the shape? As Spitz demonstrated, a whack with the flashlight also left a large irregular break, like a pointed beard for want of a better description. That is because the flashlight is more than just its cutting edge head, it has a body and a handle trailing behind it too.

Why do you think any part of the flashlight other than the cylindrical tip would have to be involved?

This may not be the exact model but it sure seems representative to me.

But there is really little point in discussing it if people prefer to defer to an expert opinion, without checking the accuracy of what the expert says.

Check it how? Do you have a better demonstration than the one CBS provided? I'd be happy to check it out.

Think about symmetry. To cause a symmetrical shape, you're either looking for a symmetrical object exactly the shape of the hole that punched out a piece of bone, let's say the edge of a large flattish circular shower head, or you need something thin like a rod which with enough force crushes an equal surrounding area of curved skull either side of the rod, as it strikes. I think the rod like object is more likely just because there are more objects shaped like rods than there are objects exactly shaped like the ovoid hole in the skull.

I don't know why you expect the shape to be exactly the same as the object. It's not like punching out cookies from flat cookie dough. You have a domed skull be struck by a an object moving in an arc. And it's not pressing though a malleable structure that will yield to the shape of the object. The skull has it's own structure that's going to contribute to the final shape. And the exact angle(s) of the hit are going to matter too.

The best demonstration of this is otg's tests with an egg and the long handle of a wooden spoon.

I missed that, is it in this thread? I did read cynic's golf club analysis on the other forum with otg's contributions and found that far less convincing than what CBS provided us.

The picture posted by Johnjay (showing the result of the demo with the flashlight) shows the tip of the flashlight can produce this same curved phenomenon described in the rod example (on one side only), if it comes down much like a cutting edge on a curved skull, but then because it isn't a rod, and has a body and handle extension, you are left with the trailing beard like shape, and symmetry goes out the window. There is no trailing hole in JonBenet's skull, it is narrow and perfectly symmetrical.

Why do you think the symmetrical cylindrical end of the Maglite is incapable of producing symmetrical defects?

Therefore the link between Burke using the flashlight that night and the incident that led to JonBenet's death is broken.

It's looking pretty solid to me just on the evidence of what CBS actually produced. I think someone is going to have to demonstrate that a golf club could come closer for it even to be in the running. Of all the things in that house that someone could hit JonBenet with, why use a golf club? It's not so easy to swing a golf club onto someone's head in the house if they are standing.

 

[UKGuy]

Can otg, UK, Dee or someone refresh my memory on where "wiped clean" originated from? JUst because no prints were found doesn't mean it was wiped clean.

On the subject of potential weapons, you can add that brick to the list.


The Smit "interrogation" is unfortunately bordering on worthless. Its like two best buds kicking back, eating chicken wings, and talking football.

The extent that Smit leads him makes me want to scream. Kane wasn't any better.



Amen.



Oh really?

He's pushing a very simplistic BDI scenario. If he's wrong about the weapon he could just as easily(more easily) be wrong about the attack happening almost instantly in the midst of pineapple snacking.

Then there's nothing left to his theory.

So yeah....it makes a difference.

singularity,

JonBenet, Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, excerpt

There were three theories about the origin of the spotlight. First, that it belonged to the family. John Andrew Ramsey had given to his father a flashlight that was consistent in color, make and model to the one found in the case. The Ramsey's could not account for it but hedged away from saying that the one discovered by the police belonged to them.

The second possibility was that the flashlight was brought in by the intruder, used in the crime, the left behind in his haste to escape. To me, this was not consistent, for he had not hurried about anything else and, according to the intruder theorists, had carefully taken away other pieces of evidence such as the duct tape and cord. Since the flashlight held no fingerprints, did the intruder carefully wipe it down, inside and out, even the batteries, then just forget it? It didn't fit.

The flashlight need not be the blunt force weapon, just about anything heavy enough close to hand would have injured JonBenet. Knowing it was the flashlight does not advance you very far since anyone could have used it.

What is more important is identifying where the primary crime-scene was located?

.

 

[Tortoise]

Why do you think any part of the flashlight other than the cylindrical tip would have to be involved?

This may not be the exact model but it sure seems representative to me.

Check it how? Do you have a better demonstration than the one CBS provided? I'd be happy to check it out.



I don't know why you expect the shape to be exactly the same as the object. It's not like punching out cookies from flat cookie dough. You have a domed skull be struck by a an object moving in an arc. And it's not pressing though a malleable structure that will yield to the shape of the object. The skull has it's own structure that's going to contribute to the final shape. And the exact angle(s) of the hit are going to matter too.



I missed that, is it in this thread? I did read cynic's golf club analysis on the other forum with otg's contributions and found that far less convincing than what CBS provided us.





Why do you think the symmetrical cylindrical end of the Maglite is incapable of producing symmetrical defects?



It's looking pretty solid to me just on the evidence of what CBS actually produced. I think someone is going to have to demonstrate that a golf club could come closer for it even to be in the running. Of all the things in that house that someone could hit JonBenet with, why use a golf club? It's not so easy to swing a golf club onto someone's head in the house if they are standing.

The flashlight has an underbelly.

Checking his statements and diagrams, for instance pictures of a rectangular hole, against autopsy photos.

I don't expect the shape of the hole to be exactly the same as the object, that is one possibility and I said I prefer the other.

I'm not sure which thread otg's egg and spoon tests are in, sorry. I saw it on youtube as well, where I think he posted a video, or someone did.

It's not just the end that matters, as I said it's the underbelly of the flashlight that has to be accounted for. In the demo it left a pointed broken piece which destroys the symmetry.

I'm not saying it was a golf club but what makes you say it's not easy to swing a golf club in the house? The rooms were plenty big enough.