JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[Anyhoo]

There was a mag flashlight found in the home wiped clean of prints. Including the batteries.

No where was there a tire iron.

You are pulling the tire iron out of mid air. Not one dr has ever suggested it was a tire iron.

While I have no evidence that a tire iron was used, I have never once believed the flashlight was the head bash weapon. I have always thought that whatever caused the head bash was one of the items removed from the house. Does anyone doubt that items were removed from the house? If not, then I suggest it would be very logical for the murder/murderers to remove the primary weapon from the house also. I don't know why everyone automatically assumes the flashlight was the head bash weapon. The fact that it and the batteries were wiped down is not in any way an indication it was the head bash weapon. Nor the fact that it was left out to be found. The actual murder weapon could have been anything and will likely never be known.

 

[AD0086]

I might imagine that the intruders put the tire iron or crowbar back in their burglary kit, perhaps along with the duct tape, and the cord, and whatever other burglary tools they brought with them that evening.

These intruders were apparently very careful not to leave behind a lot of forensic evidence that could be traced back to them, just as surely as they were apparently very careful about making absolutely certain that JonBenet was dead. It would have been odd for them to have not taken the crowbar with them when they left.

Sorta like how they didn't take the body when they left?

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

While I have no evidence that a tire iron was used, I have never once believed the flashlight was the head bash weapon. I have always thought that whatever caused the head bash was one of the items removed from the house. Does anyone doubt that items were removed from the house? If not, then I suggest it would be very logical for the murder/murderers to remove the primary weapon from the house also. I don't know why everyone automatically assumes the flashlight was the head bash weapon. The fact that it and the batteries were wiped down is not in any way an indication it was the head bash weapon. Nor the fact that it was left out to be found. The actual murder weapon could have been anything and will likely never be known.

I would like to see some testing done using the elbow of a tire iron, and the elbow of various crowbars such as I have previously exhibited, to see what sort of damage they will cause to the cranium of a six year-old girl.

I'm fairly certain that I am correct about this, and if I am, it makes it all the more likely that this murder was a burglary gone bad.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Sorta like how they didn't take the body when they left?

Why would they take the body with them?

 

[AD0086]

Why would they take the body with them?

Nevermind. :banghead:

 

[midwest mama]

I might imagine that the intruders put the tire iron or crowbar back in their burglary kit, perhaps along with the duct tape, and the cord, and whatever other burglary tools they brought with them that evening.

These intruders were apparently very careful not to leave behind a lot of forensic evidence that could be traced back to them, just as surely as they were apparently very careful about making absolutely certain that JonBenet was dead. It would have been odd for them to have not taken the crowbar with them when they left.

I agree that a bash weapon might have been removed from the home, no matter what the weapon was, whether it was an intruder or a family member who removed it. Or, an intruder or a family member could have also left the maglite, clean of prints inside and out, on the counter. But it would have taken someone who was VERY familiar with the family to know exactly which drawer held the maglite they needed. So, at this point your theory does have some credence, since you said the female burglar was known by JB.

But, I am curious about the "burglary kit" you reference. Do you suggest the cord and duct tape was in their kit when they arrived? Why do you think two or three young burglars who were intending to raid an empty home (thinking the R's had gone to Michigan) would have included cord and tape along with their tools if they were intending to steal the "usual" things burglars go after?

In other words, if they came specifically to the R's (the female knew the family, so knew they'd have things to steal, right?) planning for them not to be home, I can't imagine why they would include cord or duct tape in their "kit" if they were looking for jewelry, cash, electronics, silver, etc.

Or do you suspect they found the cord and tape in the home, used it, then took it out with them because they feared forensic attachment? They had succeeded in leaving the ligature and mouth tape free of identifiable DNA and fingerprints, suggesting they were wearing gloves, so why would they think any of the remaining materials contained evidence? If the materials were already in the R home, and they used them, all the more reason to leave them there, so as to incriminate the R's, and make it look LESS like and intruder had gotten to JB, I would think.

Your thoughts?

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

But, I am curious about the "burglary kit" you reference. Do you suggest the cord and duct tape was in their kit when they arrived?

It is possible that they kept cord and duct tape in their burglary kit for general purposes, along with other burglary tools, but not necessarily for this particular job. It is better to have gear and not need it, than need it and not have it. Cord and duct tape are not particularly burdensome gear to tote around.

 

[wengr]

I would like to see some testing done using the elbow of a tire iron, and the elbow of various crowbars such as I have previously exhibited, to see what sort of damage they will cause to the cranium of a six year-old girl.

I'm fairly certain that I am correct about this, and if I am, it makes it all the more likely that this murder was a burglary gone bad.

I would be surprised to find testing using the elbow of a crow bar, as there is zero evidence of a crowbar.
There is no forced entry.
There is no reason to bring cord to a burglary. That's alot of useless stuff to carry when two people have contort thru a window well without breaking the magic elastic spider webs and levitate over the leaves and dust.
Maybe do your own experiment, and I suspect you will find the the crowbar exemplars that you provide would not be possible do to them not giving the proper length to width ratio, and there is no sign that I observe of a hexagonal cross section.
And, at the end of the day, we must accept the reality that tools are commonly stored in basements - and tools fit in golf bags.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

I would be surprised to find testing using the elbow of a crow bar, as there is zero evidence of a crowbar.

Yeah... This would be the reason for the testing, no?

There is no forced entry.

Forced entry is not required for a burglary. What is more, it does not follow that since forced entry was not discovered that no forced entry necessarily occurred.

There is no reason to bring cord to a burglary.

Actually, cord and duct tape can be very handy in a burglary. It would not be unusual to find these items in a burglary kit.

And, at the end of the day, we must accept the reality that tools are commonly stored in basements - and tools fit in golf bags.

Funny, but it almost sounds as though you are apprehensive over the possibility that this might have been a burglary gone bad. At the end of the day, we should examine all reasonable possibilities if we are to stand a chance at solving this mystery, and avoiding the persecution of innocent people.

 

[dodie20]

Yeah... This would be the reason for the testing, no?



Forced entry is not required for a burglary. What is more, it does not follow that since forced entry was not discovered that no forced entry necessarily occurred.



Actually, cord and duct tape can be very handy in a burglary. It would not be unusual to find these items in a burglary kit.



Funny, but it almost sounds as though you are apprehensive over the possibility that this might have been a burglary gone bad. At the end of the day, we should examine all reasonable possibilities if we are to stand a chance at solving this mystery, and avoiding the persecution of innocent people.

Examining all possibilities would make sense if the crime just happened, but it has been 16 years, and all of those avenues were investigated long ago. They were! and no stone was left unturned. This investigation is not in its early stages and as a matter of fact, it progressed to the point of a grand jury voting to indict both Rs for child abuse resulting in death. Those jurors haven't said, 'oops, we made a mistake, so start over', so there's no need to start over. They did their job, and as far as this investigation goes, the jury voting to indict, is the new starting point. Where to go from here, is the question. moo

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

all of those avenues were investigated long ago. They were! and no stone was left unturned.

I doubt it.

 

[dodie20]

I doubt it.

considering that a grand jury voted to indict the Rs, look at how they've been treated. John Mark Karr, and the whole exoneration fiasco. Need I say more? No, but I will. The housekeeper was treated like a real suspect, as was the santa claus, friends, neighbors, people JR worked with, (including everybody he had double crossed or who might be jealous of his bonus), pageant people, strangers at parades, and on and on. These people were investigated, interrogated, asked for writing and DNA samples, and I bet more than 1 took a LDT. And 1 by 1, they were each ruled out, And all the while, the evidence kept leading right back to the Rs. I remember the early stages of this case and I remember how LHP, and the santa, and FW, and a neighbor boarder were especially focused on. Don't forget, even JR, after seeing the ransom note, decided this was an inside job. So blatantly obvious, that even he admitted that thinking otherwise, would be foolish and a waste of time. moo

 

[redheadedgal]

fwiw re: tire iron

in all these articles where a tire iron was used to bash someone on the head, there were visible scalp lacerations... there were none on jonbenet:

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-09-2...0100924_1_tire-iron-allentown-police-homicide

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-04-0...0401_1_tire-iron-allentown-tu-casa-night-club

http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/man-arrested-for-tire-iron-assault-1.1047614

http://peekskill.dailyvoice.com/police-fire/peekskill-man-charged-tire-iron-assault

http://bangordailynews.com/2009/12/10/news/aroostook/st-francis-man-arrested-in-tire-iron-assault/

http://iowacity.patch.com/articles/...ct-20-man-allegedly-uses-tire-iron-in-assault

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june052008/tire_iron_assault_6-5-08.php

 

[dodie20]

I doubt it.

and another thing. I don't see, and never did see, the Rs as ' bereaved' parents. IMO, they were more concerned with protecting their own hides, and pointing the finger at somebody else, anybody else, than they were with grieving. This is what I see, and now it's backed up by the grand jury decision to indict JR also...he knew JB's body was in that basement, but he stll inflicted the horror of 'finding' her rigor mortis ravaged body onto FW. Now there's bereavement. I bet that man still has nightmares about what he saw. Meanwhile, JR had a business meeting he didn't want to miss. And what business meeting? They were flying out to be with family for the holidays. moo

 

[redheadedgal]

re: crow bar

again, head lacs

http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/...rious-Head-Injuries-in-Robbery-181937651.html

http://fox5sandiego.com/2012/11/28/elderly-man-beaten-with-crowbar/#axzz2KXFtvRnd

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012...iciously-beaten-in-unprovoked-crowbar-attack/

http://www.ktiv.com/story/18778748/man-dies-after-home-invasion?clienttype=printable

 

[midwest mama]

It is possible that they kept cord and duct tape in their burglary kit for general purposes, along with other burglary tools, but not necessarily for this particular job. It is better to have gear and not need it, than need it and not have it. Cord and duct tape are not particularly burdensome gear to tote around.

Are we to assume that you surmise this burglary team, of which one female was someone known to JB, either had already or were intending to, burglarize other residences as well? IIRC, there were some unsolved burglaries going on in Boulder at the time. Do you suspect this team might have been connected to these other burglaries as well?

For the record, I do not doubt that BPD did investigate as many burglary suspects as they had leads at that time, according to the documented numbers of interviews they conducted connected to JB's death. I would suspect if any of the burglary leads contained a name that crossed paths with the R's, it would have received consideration beyond the norm. Basic police work, no matter how small or inexperienced a department might be.

Sorry, E.DIII, I cannot agree with your theory about a burglary gone bad at this point. I might be able to accept an intruder known to the family, if by now there was [U]at least[/U] the same amount of evidence presented as has been connected to the R's. However, I must default to the amount of the evidence presented to the GJ, leading to the vote to indict, as having the greatest weight on the scales of justice. Unless new evidence is disclosed which will lead even one member of the investigative community, which is challenged with solving this crime to look again at IDI, I will remain in support of RDI.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

considering that a grand jury voted to indict the Rs, look at how they've been treated. John Mark Karr, and the whole exoneration fiasco. Need I say more? No, but I will. The housekeeper was treated like a real suspect, as was the santa claus, friends, neighbors, people JR worked with, (including everybody he had double crossed or who might be jealous of his bonus), pageant people, strangers at parades, and on and on. These people were investigated, interrogated, asked for writing and DNA samples, and I bet more than 1 took a LDT. And 1 by 1, they were each ruled out, And all the while, the evidence kept leading right back to the Rs. I remember the early stages of this case and I remember how LHP, and the santa, and FW, and a neighbor boarder were especially focused on. Don't forget, even JR, after seeing the ransom note, decided this was an inside job. So blatantly obvious, that even he admitted that thinking otherwise, would be foolish and a waste of time. moo

The fact that Santa Claus, and the housekeeper, and random friends and neighbors were recklessly investigated, interrogated, etc. is evidence that the detectives really had no handle on this case and were utterly mystified. I don't know to what degree they investigated the case from the angle of it being a burglary gone bad but it does not seem that they did so with much enthusiasm, if at all.

They should have, considering that there was a rash of burglaries in the area in recent months, considering that the Ramseys had been planning to leave home for vacation that very morning, and considering the bogus ransom note. This should have been their primary working theory and it should have guided the direction of the investigation from the start.

Instead, the bulk of their energies was directed at the Ramseys as suspects, and continued that way through and through the entire investigation, despite all evidence suggesting the Ramseys were innocent; and they foolishly continued on this path all the way until the grand jury presentation, putting Hunter in the awkward position of getting an indictment on a high-profile case for which he could not possibly obtain a conviction.

 

[wengr]

The fact that Santa Claus, and the housekeeper, and random friends and neighbors were recklessly investigated, interrogated, etc. is evidence that the detectives really had no handle on this case and were utterly mystified. I don't know to what degree they investigated the case from the angle of it being a burglary gone bad but it does not seem that they did so with much enthusiasm, if at all.

They should have, considering that there was a rash of burglaries in the area in recent months, considering that the Ramseys had been planning to leave home for vacation that very morning, and considering the bogus ransom note. This should have been their primary working theory and it should have guided the direction of the investigation from the start.

A murdered child is not a sign of a burglary.
A sexual assault is not a sign of a burglary.
A rediculous ransom note from mom's pen and pad is not a sign of a burglary.
Not a single item missing from the house is not a sign of a burglary.

And, not surprisingly, there is no evidence of a break in, no evidence of an intruder in the house, and therefore little reason for police to pursue such a theory.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Do you suspect this team might have been connected to these other burglaries as well?

There is a distinct possibility that one or both of the intruders had been involved in recent local burglaries.

For the record, I do not doubt that BPD did investigate as many burglary suspects as they had leads at that time, according to the documented numbers of interviews they conducted connected to JB's death. I would suspect if any of the burglary leads contained a name that crossed paths with the R's, it would have received consideration beyond the norm. Basic police work, no matter how small or inexperienced a department might be.

My guess is that they rounded up the usual suspects, namely, suspects with prior burglary arrests and convictions. However, it is unlikely that these burglars were the usual suspects. Indeed, the author of the ransom note appears to be educated and not at all dependent upon swag as a necessary income. In all likelihood, she is from an upper middle class family who had little or no clue as to what sort of bad behavior their daughter had been engaged, knew the Ramsey family personally, and had no prior arrests or convictions.

As for her male accomplice, there is a good chance that he was a student at UC, and although possessed by a psychopathic personality, may not have had any criminal record as he is careful, intelligent, outwardly charming, possibly good-looking, meticulous, self-controlled, cool as a cucumber, and utterly amoral.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

A murdered child is not a sign of a burglary

In the annals of crime history, the number of burglaries that evolved into homicide is incalculable.

A sexual assault is not a sign of a burglary.

Once again, it appears that you are badly misinformed.

A rediculous ransom note from mom's pen and pad is not a sign of a burglary.

Actually, in this case, it is. Indeed, it is the only explanation for it, considering the body being left in the basement.

Not a single item missing from the house is not a sign of a burglary.

In a botched burglary turned child murder, the intelligent thing to do is not take anything that could finger you as having ever been present in the Ramsey home should you ever be suspected of the crime.

And, not surprisingly, there is no evidence of a break in, no evidence of an intruder in the house, and therefore little reason for police to pursue such a theory.

No discovered evidence of a break-in does not equate to there having been no intruders intent on burglary. While there might not have been much reason for the average patrol officer to consider that an unlawful entry had occurred, a competent detective would know better and would not rule out the possibility. The fact is that evidence of forceful entry is not always present in a burglary, particularly a home burglary where the residents are not fastidious about maintaining home security.