Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Thread #2

[passionflower]

MARYANN (((HUGS))) and my sympathy

 

[JoeFromLB]

The image of those two boys running from the car, excited to see their father, and seconds later being cruelly and deliberately killed by him is almost too much to contemplate.

 

[mamamia54]

It's like someone runs a knife thru my heart to even think about those babies not knowing what they were walking into, only to be blown to bits.

I'm sorry, I'm just so damned angry.

 

[hollyblue]

In one of the many links I read today, I saw where the current court order for a "psycho-sexual evall" prior to the return of the children to his care was recommended by a psychologist previously. Does anyone know if JP underwent a previous psych eval? I totally agree with this given the *advertiser censored* found in the home, the Grandfather in that home and questionable pictures of Susan (unaware), etc.

I find it interesting that JP had complied with all of the CPS and court requirements up to this point but once the psycho-sexual eval was ordered - he blew up the children and himself. What was his greatest fear? Being found out about his involvement with his wife's disappearance (murder?) from his children disclosing (new?) info(althought I am not sure any of this was new info to the involved parties) or some other sinister psycho-sexual issue that was too painful to be exposed?

This whole thing makes me so sick. My heart is weeping for the entire Cox family, for their friends and loved ones, for the boys friends, teachers and classmates, for all of the detectives who tried so hard, and also for the social worker and judge (who will also have to second-guess for the rest of their life). So many people have been affected by this.

Josh was a sick, evil man. He is the only person deserving of blame in all of this. I firmly believe that he would have found a way to come to this type of an ending regardless of where a visit took place, who supervised, etc.

May Susan and her boys rest in peace. And may those who love and miss them be able to find comfort in the rough days ahead.

I don't think it was made public if JP did undergo a psych evaluation previously, (HIPPA laws?) but I would certainly hope he did at some point...surely.? Let's be honest...after the beanie cap interview, we all were concerned about all the red flags .. questioned his mental health status. Then after his move to WA and no apparent negative reports (other than him keeping the children from the Coxes) the discussion subsided...until his father's arrest.

Somehow, all this relates and goes back to his relationship with his father.., his manipulation and puppeteering of JP all his life (JP was the oldest of the boys); his father's strange view on sexuality, women and lack of proper boundaries. And for those who have experienced the Chantrey site, his father's own chaotic family's dysfunction.

I agree, this would have happened....eventually..no doubt, imo. Even if the Coxes were awarded full custody, with or without JP having visitation, imo, JP would have taken them...and maybe the Coxes or whoever was with the children at the time he would have decided to put into his plan.

IMO, there isn't one thing that caused this actually, but a string of unfortunate events over the years, involving many people, mis opportunites to get help, etc. Do I blame JP, ultimately, yes; but I don't think JP had the know how to even help himself and hid his deficiencies very well....and/or was so blind sighted by his father's delusional parenting, that any help that would have been offered or was....would was negated and ignored. Even if he wasn't the one to actually "disappear" Susan, but knew his father was involved, he wouldn't betray his puppet master or all the dark secrets he harbored about all his family. JP couldn't recognize true love...control to him equalled love. "If you love something, set it free." He had no concept of it. He was one, very, very sick puppy.. and unraveled. It was just inevitable,, unless he was locked away; with evidence of Susan's harm or his mental instability. JMO, IMO, etc.

 

[passionflower]

The image of those two boys running from the car, excited to see their father, and seconds later being cruelly and deliberately killed by him is almost too much to contemplate.

even harder to take is if they were forced to see their father and not wanting to go in the house, wouldn't that be ever so hard on the case worker?
My heart goes out to her. The evil she saw and was helpless........

 

[mamamia54]

I have a question for anyone who may know the answer. Did JP have a car or a van? I ask this because in the NG interview with Susan's sister, she clearly said van. If it was actually a van, then mommy couldn't have been in the trunk. She could have been in the backend?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I have a question for anyone who may know the answer. Did JP have a car or a van? I ask this because in the NG interview with Susan's sister, she clearly said van. If it was actually a van, then mommy couldn't have been in the trunk. She could have been in the backend?

No car, they just had the Van. Could have been talking about the back of the Van or an actual trunk josh put in the van. Like a moving trunk.

 

[mamamia54]

I just located the missing person info, and apparently the police had impounded the minivan and searched it. During the day the van was in police custody and Josh rented a car to drive, and drove hundreds of miles before he returned it.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/powell_susan.html

 

[gitana1]

I dont think you can treat everyone as if they would kill their children or a spouse because of a dispute.

BUT-I do think there are many tools available to determine who is likely to. A man who has murdered his wife because she had discovered "the man behind the curtain" and was planning on leaving him, has a high probability of murdering his non custodial children in order to spread as much pain and suffering as possible.

jmo.

I agree. Again, I will state that in such cases, the presumption should be against child custody. And visitation orders should be issued accordingly.
I thought visitation in this case was at a facility. Since the kids lived in Utah, that would make sense. Instead, they had to be driven to WA every week for two hour visits?

Supervised visits can and often are outside such centers. Sometimes, supervised visits merely mean that the parent being supervised must have a relative or friend supervise their time. That can include "supervised" overnights.

However, the judge has control over how the visits will be conducted. In many DV cases, the judge orders that custody must be at a secure facility because those who commit DV are at greater risk of harming their children.

Perhaps this coward would have found a way to harm the boys no matter what, but I do believe more restrictive visitation would have been reasonable and may have prevented him from carrying out his act.

In one of the many links I read today, I saw where the current court order for a "psycho-sexual evall" prior to the return of the children to his care was recommended by a psychologist previously. Does anyone know if JP underwent a previous psych eval? I totally agree with this given the *advertiser censored* found in the home, the Grandfather in that home and questionable pictures of Susan (unaware), etc.

I find it interesting that JP had complied with all of the CPS and court requirements up to this point but once the psycho-sexual eval was ordered - he blew up the children and himself. What was his greatest fear? Being found out about his involvement with his wife's disappearance (murder?) from his children disclosing (new?) info(althought I am not sure any of this was new info to the involved parties) or some other sinister psycho-sexual issue that was too painful to be exposed?

IIRC he was ordered to undergo and did undergo a standard psych eval. That may have led to the judge ordering this more intensive one.

I think the simple fact he was labeled a POI should of gave CPS pause in how they handled 'visits'. I understand that in a lot of these cases you don't even have that luxury (parent being a suspect or POI) but here you did.

I agree 100%.

Supervised visits are always held in the Least Restrictive environments based upon the information known to CPS. There are quite a few reasons to have supervised visits in the family home . . .
relieves family anxiety, allows the children to return to their home and play in their rooms and with their toys, in my experience . . . small children stuck sitting in a bench seat at a McD's (for 3 hours twice a week) is a recipe for disaster for both parent and children. It is NO fun, doesn't help the children and parents to reconnect and learn better relationship and parenting skills when they are miserable being forced to sit still for hours on end.

A park setting is usually much better than a place to eat for supervised visits, but weather dependent makes it difficult.

Generally, children are allowed to visit their parents in their home unless there are compelling circumstances that they are in danger (ie: health hazards in the home, guns/glass/exposed wiring in the home, parent threatens violence or suicide, parents are homeless, etc).

If a parent is violent or acts out or has a history of violence, visits usually take place at the CPS office with LE standing by and a student intern sitting outside of the room documenting what happens during the visits.

To my knowledge, JP was not charged with violence or violent acts towards anyone.

And to be fair. . . . I think we were all shocked at JP's behaviors and evil acts. No one could have predicted this given the facts that we had in this case.

Well, this is not actually true, at least in my experience. Where such visits are conducted and under what controls, depends on the circumstances of the case. (At least in California). Sometimes it's just a relative supervising at any location. Other times it is only in a secure facility. It depends what the judge orders and often, on what social workers, child custody evaluators, etc., recommend.

I will also say that although no one could predict how the coward would do it and all were shocked, to very many of us, this was no surprise at all. We have been wringing our hands over this person having custody of the boys, since Susan was murdered. We discussed a murder-suicide situation, or straight murder of the boys, on several occasions. Most of us following Susan's case believed this could happen at any time.

My anger stems in part from the belief that the "system" should be at least as knowledgeable as websleuthers about their case. If we had enough info to determine that this man posed a serious risk to the lives of Susan's children, CPS, minor's counsel and the judge should have as well.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Previous visits between Josh Powell and his sons had taken place at a common house where a number of other families also were having visits.

But there were discussions about the lack of privacy, and the Coxes OK’d visits at Josh Powell’s newly rented home for the sake of the boys.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53454834-78/powell-josh-cox-monday.html.csp?page=4

 

[Dr.Fessel]

KSL5TV KSL 5 TV
News conference at 3 p.m. on #JoshPowell murder suicide. Watch it live on KSL. @KSL_SandraYi and @KSLSharaPark on the scene.



KSL 5 TV
@KSL5TV view full profile →
Salt Lake City, Utah
Home of KSL 5 News and Studio 5, and the local affiliate for NBC programming. Broadcasting from Salt Lake City, Utah. Got news? Email: social@ksl.com http://www.ksl.com/index.php

 

[SuziQ]

Yeah Mr. Cousin, keep talking. This is how it went downhill for your uncle Steve Powell. This is how you take (unusual) people down a few notches and teach them a lesson.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53454834-78/powell-josh-cox-monday.html.csp

(snip)
Meanwhile, Washington state investigators were trying to fill in holes in the case with an arson investigation at the home and autopsies on Josh Powell and his sons.
Pierce County Sheriff Paul Pastor said Monday that detectives were trying to determine which of Josh’s family members or friends might have received prior indication of the murders.
"We may be looking at [search] warrants to look at all people who may have information," Pastor said.
He said those with information would not necessarily be under investigation for a crime, adding that officers would only use search warrants "if we don’t get cooperation."
"We want to know what they knew of and when they knew it," Pastor said.

 

[hollyblue]

Does anyone know of a live stream link for the presser at 2PM Pacific time? TIA

 

[hollyblue]

KSL5TV KSL 5 TV
News conference at 3 p.m. on #JoshPowell murder suicide. Watch it live on KSL. @KSL_SandraYi and @KSLSharaPark on the scene.



KSL 5 TV
@KSL5TV view full profile →
Salt Lake City, Utah
Home of KSL 5 News and Studio 5, and the local affiliate for NBC programming. Broadcasting from Salt Lake City, Utah. Got news? Email: social@ksl.com http://www.ksl.com/index.php

Thank you....you read my mind!!:rocker:

 

[Trident]

No car, they just had the Van. Could have been talking about the back of the Van or an actual trunk josh put in the van. Like a moving trunk.

Question here - Did Josh have custody of the boys when he rented the car? Could the boys have gone with him with a "dug-up/moved" Susan in that trunk? You all know the rental car I'm talking about, the one I don't believe LE went over with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[Anadarko]

I don't think a hard drive could survive a fire, and since the computer is part of the trouble, I would think he doused that thing in a gallon of gas. They can retrieve any and all emails sent via his ISP, but the hard drive we can only hope for. Watching the house burn, and so rapidly and fully, I'm not thinking so.

Also, keep in mind, he probably destroyed any older hard drives long ago.

The hard drive could survive. There are a few companies that specialize in this. One is Kroll Inc. They were able to recover hard drive info from the space shuttle Columbia.

 

[DLT88]

even harder to take is if they were forced to see their father and not wanting to go in the house, wouldn't that be ever so hard on the case worker?
My heart goes out to her. The evil she saw and was helpless........

An on-line friend quoted an article she just read which I will look for. It cuts at the heart even more. This may be it:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...ur-family-Susan-Powells-sister-says.html?pg=3

The boys DID NOT want to go to see their father on Sunday (and, apparently it was not the first time) and the grandparents had to talk them into it saying their father loves them and wants to see them. And now they have to live with that guilt of saying that to them just moments before they were killed by that sperm-donor.

 

[LinasK]

I agree with you but do not understand why the supervised visits were not held in a place of neutrality (ie.. restaurant, park, chuck e cheese, etc..) I do believe there was a failure in the system that this was not reinforced and I do hope that something positive comes out of this vile act in the sense that in the future, when a parent loses custody of their child(ren) that standard of supervised visits in a public place will be reinforced.

MOO

I am for one am very glad it was not held somewhere like Chuck e cheese, because that doesn't make it safe at all. Nobody would search him for weapons before he showed up in Chuck e cheese, so how would that make it safe?
Could have been a lot more casualties if they held it in a public place with other people/children around.

I agree it wasn't his goal but if he had to meet them in a public place like a restaurant, I really doubt that would have stopped him, since nobody would check him for weapons. The other people there potentially could have ended up as collateral damage. The only way to have safe visitations would have been in courthouse where he would be searched for weapons before allowed in (and even that probably isn't a guarantee he couldn't have tried something, but at least it would have been safer).

Supervised visits are always held in the Least Restrictive environments based upon the information known to CPS. There are quite a few reasons to have supervised visits in the family home . . .
relieves family anxiety, allows the children to return to their home and play in their rooms and with their toys, in my experience . . . small children stuck sitting in a bench seat at a McD's (for 3 hours twice a week) is a recipe for disaster for both parent and children. It is NO fun, doesn't help the children and parents to reconnect and learn better relationship and parenting skills when they are miserable being forced to sit still for hours on end.

A park setting is usually much better than a place to eat for supervised visits, but weather dependent makes it difficult.

Generally, children are allowed to visit their parents in their home unless there are compelling circumstances that they are in danger (ie: health hazards in the home, guns/glass/exposed wiring in the home, parent threatens violence or suicide, parents are homeless, etc).

If a parent is violent or acts out or has a history of violence, visits usually take place at the CPS office with LE standing by and a student intern sitting outside of the room documenting what happens during the visits.

To my knowledge, JP was not charged with violence or violent acts towards anyone.

And to be fair. . . . I think we were all shocked at JP's behaviors and evil acts. No one could have predicted this given the facts that we had in this case.

Bringing my post over from the closed thread in response:

Agreed, but that's why the supervised visitation needs to be in a tightly controlled environment-a therapist's office, or a courthouse with metal detectors. A restaurant wouldn't be much safer than his home, because I don't think he'd hesitate to shoot other people either. We've seen that Josh Powell had the propensity to kill, so he most likely killed Susan.

:twocents:

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Chuck Cox says that the family told anybody who would listen: It was only a matter of time before his son-in-law Josh Powell killed himself and his two boys. http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20567726,00.html

 

[gwenabob]

Question here - Did Josh have custody of the boys when he rented the car? Could the boys have gone with him with a "dug-up/moved" Susan in that trunk? You all know the rental car I'm talking about, the one I don't believe LE went over with a fine-toothed comb.

His sister Jennifer Graves was babysitting the boys when he took the trip in the rental car. She said he never gave her any explanation as to where he was all those hours.