Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[Carmelita]

where in South African Law statutes is this claim to be found?

If you are not quoting this from the South African Law Statutes, how does it apply to this trial under discussion?

Are you suggesting that the standard of posting is higher for me? Many people are posting about the law without siting statutes (95%). Reasonable doubt is an almost universal standard. Their are places where it doesn't exist in practice i.e. China, Iran, Cuba. Are you suggesting that SA does not have a reasonable doubt standard?

Someone, I believe Steve posted the SA law and it is similar in scope to US law when it comes to reasonable doubt. It is not even a question for most folks.

 

[IfIMay]

where in South African Law statutes is this claim to be found?

If you are not quoting this from the South African Law Statutes, how does it apply to this trial under discussion?

don't go to any trouble supplying the subsections, etc, just the main Statute number dealing with this will be enough.

It is a concept in law but the key word is REASONABLE. It is not a remote indistinct mere possibility that has to be given to the defense. Not by a long shot. Uncontested woman's screams are fact in this case. No one has put a dent in that actuality. NO defense witness, yet, has even heard the screams or gunshots in question. Only OP's crying aftermath. No matter what <modsnip> cannot not erase Reeva's blood curdling screams before the shots.

 

[Trooper]

Are you suggesting that the standard of posting is higher for me? Many people are posting about the law without siting statutes (95%). Reasonable doubt is an almost universal standard. Their are places where it doesn't exist in practice i.e. China, Iran, Cuba. Are you suggesting that SA does not have a reasonable doubt standard?

Someone, I believe Steve posted the SA law and it is similar in scope to US law when it comes to reasonable doubt. It is not even a question for most folks.

I am doing far more than suggesting.. I am requiring the actual Statute in South African Law that delineates and proscribes 'Reasonable Doubt' that you are applying in this instance..


I don't need all the subsections.. just the statute number will be fine.

 

[Trooper]

It is a concept in law but the key word is REASONABLE. It is not a remote indistinct mere possibility that has to be given to the defense. Not by a long shot. Uncontested woman's screams are fact in this case. No one has put a dent in that actuality. NO defense witness, yet, has even heard the screams or gunshots in question. Only OP's crying aftermath. <modsnip> cannot not erase Reeva's blood curdling screams before the shots.

Precisely, If.. the word 'reasonable' doesn't cover all manner of feelings, or hopes or plain reluctance to form a view in spite of evidence presented..

The word, Reasonable, as applied in Law in respect of 'reasonable doubt' requires a rather high standard of cogent and thoughtful calculation and rationale.. which is why I cant find in the South African Law Statutes any such of a thing as a blanket ,all encompassing statute that relies on tiny doubt, or the mere wish for doubt..

that would be Unreasonable Doubt.

 

[Trooper]

Cuban law recognises and has had the concept of reasonable doubt since 1893.

 

[Trooper]

China has had the concept of reasonable doubt since the time of Confucious.

 

[Trooper]

Iran law, I don't know. I don't speak ,read , or write Farsi.

 

[Trooper]

But nowhere I do know, and that's quite a lot of various judicial systems, and languages, regard ' Reasonable Doubt ' as an arbitrary thing. Its a very concrete and highly regulated concept in law. Certainly is in South Africa. As it is in my country.

 

[bessie]

Cuban law recognises and has had the concept of reasonable doubt since 1893.

China has had the concept of reasonable doubt since the time of Confucious.

Gotta link?

 

[Carmelita]

Iran law, I don't know. I don't speak ,read , or write Farsi.

I did not say the countries I listed do not have a reasonable doubt in theory or on the books, I said they do not apply it in practice. I do request that you read my posts a bit more carefully and it may cut down on your misinterpreting them.

 

[Trooper]

Gotta link?

sure.. do you want the Cuban one in Spanish??


you can choose the chinese one in Mandarin or Cantonese, or if you are really keen, I can give you the statutes in the currently undergoing reformation of Chinese legalese, which is a combo of both.

you choose.

 

[IfIMay]

sure.. do you want the Cuban one in Spanish??


you can choose the chinese one in Mandarin or Cantonese, or if you are really keen, I can give you the statutes in the currently undergoing reformation of Chinese legalese, which is a combo of both.

you choose.

although the SA one wasn't requested to be proven (except by you), maybe you should link that one as well. :wink:

 

[Trooper]

I did not say the countries I listed do not have the a reasonable doubt in theory or on the books, I said they do not apply it in practice. I do request that you read my posts a bit more carefully and it may cut down on your misinterpreting them.

Cuba has reasonable doubt enshrined in its law.. it practises it. It has precedent , it has application .. what makes you think it isn't applied??


China, ditto. In fact, a recent case , a Mr Bo. It attracted world wide attention, due to the fact that his wife murdered a British business man. Mr Bo was , in fact, due to be appointed the next leader of the Chinese Communist Party Committee.... had been groomed for it for years, schooled at Harvard , an engineer. ( chemical , I think) .. He was indicted for undue profiteering.

DUE to reasonable doubt enshrined in Chinese Law. he was found guilty but was not , as is usual in Chinese sentencing for profiteering ( a very major crime in China) , executed.. the reasonable doubt factor used by his attorney to escape execution was the minor matter of his involvement with the murder his wife committed.. he is currently serving 24 years in prison.

 

[bessie]

sure.. do you want the Cuban one in Spanish??


you can choose the chinese one in Mandarin or Cantonese, or if you are really keen, I can give you the statutes in the currently undergoing reformation of Chinese legalese, which is a combo of both.

you choose.

Whatever suits you.

My point, Trooper, is that in general, many liberties have been taken with stating "the law". We'd all do well to be more conscientious about providing links.

Thanks.

 

[Trooper]

although the SA one wasn't requested to be proven (except by you), maybe you should link that one as well. :wink:

I would if I could, but I cant find a South African Law Statute that gives a blanket dispensation to any kind of doubt, irregardless of the evidence.. they only have the usual. Reasonable. just like the rest of us.

 

[Carmelita]

I am doing far more than suggesting.. I am requiring the actual Statute in South African Law that delineates and proscribes 'Reasonable Doubt' that you are applying in this instance..


I don't need all the subsections.. just the statute number will be fine.

Sorry it is a universal standard I don't have time to search through SA Law Statutes but I am surprised anyone would argue the fact.

uzspace.uzulu.az.ca/handle/10530/271

I hope the link works, I'm on a new computer and I can't figure out how to copy and paste.

<mod add> http://uzspace.uzulu.ac.za/bitstrea...onable+doubt+-+Dlamini+CRM.pdf.txt?sequence=3

 

[Carmelita]

I would if I could, but I cant find a South African Law Statute that gives a blanket dispensation to any kind of doubt, irregardless of the evidence.. they only have the usual. Reasonable. just like the rest of us.

This again is not what I suggested, I said that a judiciary must view the evidence in the light most favorable to a defendant.

 

[Estelle]

Symptoms of pure anxiety without depression:

Sufferers of this type feel stirred up, anxious, or nervous. They often feel uncomfortable in their own skin. They report feeling as though they &#8220;could climb the walls&#8221; or that they are &#8220;crawling out of their skin.&#8221; They are plagued by feelings of panic, fear and self-doubt, and suffer the physical feelings of anxiety as well, such as muscle tension, nail biting, headaches, abdominal pain, heart palpitations, shortness of breath, and sore muscles. It&#8217;s as if they have an overload of tension and emotion. The symptoms may be a consistently disruptive thing or may come in unpredictable waves. Irrational fears or phobias may also be a burden. People with &#8220;pure anxiety&#8221; tend to avoid anything that makes them anxious or uncomfortable, such as places or people that might trigger panic attacks or interpersonal conflict. People with this type tend to predict the worst and look to the future with fear. They may be excessively shy or startle easily, or they may freeze in emotionally charged situations.

http://www.amenclinics.com/conditions/anxiety-issues/

So it is freeze not fight in emotionally charged situations for people suffering from GAD. Roux and Vorster have suggested that OP's response was "fight".

 

[PrimeSuspect]

This is exactly what is happening in this case, OP's version against what 'ear witnesses' heard, the time delay between first and second shot (reason?), again the four shots (reason?) the list goes on.

A piece of evidence contradicts another when it affirms the opposite of what that other evidence has stated, not when there is just a minor discrepancy between them.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/04/oscar-pistorius-trial-3/ http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/04/oscar-pistorius-trial-3/#sthash.rO8zuDik.dpuf

I snipped the quote used by Awa Kalu direct from

http://caselawquotes.net/S/Standard_of_Proof.html

It need not reach certainty, but it must carry a high degree of probability. Proof beyond reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. The law would fail to protect the community if it permitted fanciful possibilities to deflect the course of justice. If the evidence is so strong against a man as to leave only a remote possibility in his favour which can be dismissed with the sentence “Of course it is possible but not in the least probable”, the case is proved beyond reasonable doubt; nothing short will suffice.”

 

[Trooper]

Whatever suits you.

My point, Trooper, is that in general, many liberties have been taken with stating "the law". We'd all do well to be more conscientious about providing links.

Thanks.

my point, and I take yours with enthusiasm, is that Reasonable Doubt, in law, is not the same as simple unregulated subjective doubt. I , as it happens didn't bring the subject up. I merely questioned the application of it to this particular event without reference to cogency.