Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[Trooper]

Since 'intent' is the entire purpose of this trial, it has been every posters point. Without the factor of intent, every other matter is irrelevant. The Judge, the attorneys, the accused, the witnesses , the Assessors, the court reporter, the baliffs, the press , the State of the Republic of South Africa, the population of South Africa, etc.. all are absorbed by the one question. . not mere intent.. but what was the intent.

The totality of this trial's existence, is what was the intent.... nothing more, and nothing less.. Intent in and of itself without the qualifier is meaningless.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes , i agree. Sadness should sink in much later , in the immediate aftermath one would expect to see what i bib. And if it's a true mistake i'd add DESPERATE and beside himself.
IIRC OP used ( at different times , never in the same sentence , a problem imo)
during his testimony "i was overcome with sadness" and also think he said "i was panicking".

BBM

Yes, alright: beside himself. I would say, if one really has killed the most loved person, a new love - mistaken for an intruder -, then a normal person would have to be beside himself and probably needs medical treatment already at the crime scene and long time after.
One wouldn't know the feeling; not "sad", not horrible", not "desperate" - nothing at all. The witnesses, which successively are arriving, may be able later to tell this poor human about his mental constitution after the shooting/killing. But the person himself would be insane and would never really know.
IMO IMO

 

[CriLondon]

BBM

Yes, alright: beside himself. I would say, if one really has killed the most loved person, a new love - mistaken for an intruder -, then a normal person would have to be beside himself and probably needs medical treatment already at the crime scene and long time after.
One wouldn't know the feeling; not "sad", not horrible", not "desperate" - nothing at all. The witnesses, which successively are arriving, may be able later to tell this poor human about his mental constitution after the shooting/killing. But the person himself would be insane and would never really know.
IMO IMO

It would be important to define what one means when saying desperate and beside himself .
To me "overcome by sadness" means you cannot feel anything else other than sadness. So when you add "i was panicking" that classifies as fear. So that's a different emotion altogether .Furthermore you add "i was shocked" that classifies as surprise.

You cannot be "overcome by sadness AND have other active/influencing emotions. One would think the natural order would be fear/surprise(shock)/sadness

 

[Viper]

Snipped

To sum up the rest of your post more simply Oscar laid out a brief scenario of his defense in his bail statement in order to get bail that in and of itself shows that the court will be looking for a defense that negates the know facts of that AM

Perhaps you can lay out the DT timeline for me. OP shot and killed Reeva at what time? What time was it when he beat the door down with the cricket bat causing bang sounds? Between what times did he hold Reeva in his arms before calling Stander? Between what times was OP screaming like a man and a woman? What was the source of the bangs at ~ 3:15 30?

 

[CriLondon]

just an off the top guess on my part , is, it could be because it went thru a Mercanti wood door panel first?

That would imply , perhaps , that part of the bullet remained in the door? Seems unlikely to me , jmo Trooper

 

[Carmelita]

I think that would classify as "disappointed". Please make a better comparison , kindly , if possible , so that your next point can be discussed better

I'm not sure what you are asking me to do? Are you saying because you would say that you were disappointed a movie was sold out rather than sad that a movie was sold out that you are then unable to discuss my point? I can't change the word to disappointed in place of sad as it would then not be pertinent to the conversation.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Just food for thought. Many people suspect that it was Frank that yelled "help help help" after hearing all of this go down. That does make more sense to me. But Frank isn't talking, so...

BBM

To me too!!!
Food for thought also: Was Frankie successful in thorough cleansing of a white but bloodied t-shirt ...?
Frank isn't talking, we will never know.

 

[Trooper]

That would imply , perhaps , that part of the bullet remained in the door? Seems unlikely to me , jmo Trooper

I assumed that by being forced thru the wood panel of the door, at high speed and terrific power, that the bullet would be somewhat compressed.. misshapen, even...

oh well. I have never fired thru a door, so its a moot point with me.

 

[Trooper]

I think that would classify as "disappointed". Please make a better comparison , kindly , if possible , so that your next point can be discussed better

for a lot of people that would be the time to look around for someone to blame for making them late enough to be unable to buy a ticket.. sad would hardly enter into it. :blushing:

 

[CriLondon]

I'm not sure what you are asking me to do? Are you saying because you would say that you were disappointed a movie was sold out rather than sad that a movie was sold out that you are then unable to discuss my point? I can't change the word to disappointed in place of sad as it would then not be pertinent to the conversation.

Please keep in mind that i never said at any stage you don't have a point , in fact i think you partially do. I just don't think one can be really sad that a movie is sold out. If the comparison had been something like "my best friend has just lost his job,i'm sad for the consequences" imo it would have simply expressed better the point you were trying to illustrate. That's all

 

[Carmelita]

BBM

Yes, alright: beside himself. I would say, if one really has killed the most loved person, a new love - mistaken for an intruder -, then a normal person would have to be beside himself and probably needs medical treatment already at the crime scene and long time after.
One wouldn't know the feeling; not "sad", not horrible", not "desperate" - nothing at all. The witnesses, which successively are arriving, may be able later to tell this poor human about his mental constitution after the shooting/killing. But the person himself would be insane and would never really know.
IMO IMO

Human emotions and reactions are not as uniform as it seems many would like to believe, some people would have gone into shock, some people would have gone into denial, some people would have tried to fix things.

I have stood next the bed where a mother insisted that if she could just warm her daughter up she would come back to life, (not even that really she insisted that she was not dead but just cold) she insisted that she wouldn't get out of the bed without her, the human mind while prone to certain reactions is a mystery as is behavior in an extreme situation.

 

[Trooper]

Perhaps you can lay out the DT timeline for me. OP shot and killed Reeva at what time? What time was it when he beat the door down with the cricket bat causing bang sounds? Between what times did he hold Reeva in his arms before calling Stander? Between what times was OP screaming like a man and a woman? What was the source of the bangs at ~ 3:15 30?

Oscar conveniently loses track of time at that part where he holds Reeva feeling 'saddened '... he says.. ' a long time'..( also, this is where he 'screams like he never has before'.. .. )... hard to pin down, isn't it, Viper..

 

[Carmelita]

Please keep in mind that i never said at any stage you don't have a point , in fact i think you partially do. I just don't think one can be really sad that a movie is sold out. If the comparison had been something like "my best friend has just lost his job,i'm sad for the consequences" imo it would have simply expressed better the point you were trying to illustrate. That's all

So you are parsing my example of when someone might use the word sad appropriately and overcome with sadness inappropriately rather than addressing the point OK, seems an odd way to have a constructive conversation but if that is what you need to do, I'll grant your need for a more acceptable scenario for the proper and improper use of sad and overcome with sadness. Curious.

So we will go with your hypothetical, since you feel that you have expressed it better, than me, though you didn't continue on with the salient reason for the hypothetical which is the difference between sad and overcome with sadness so I'd appreciate some elaboration on the point.

 

[CriLondon]

I assumed that by being forced thru the wood panel of the door, at high speed and terrific power, that the bullet would be somewhat compressed.. misshapen, even...

oh well. I have never fired thru a door, so its a moot point with me.

Yes that's reasonable , although the bullet holes are clear shaped from what i've seen . If the bullet had encountered that much resistance i'd imagine it would show in the shape of the bullet holes , especially the exit points.

:twocents:

 

[kittychi]

Since 'intent' is the entire purpose of this trial, it has been every posters point. Without the factor of intent, every other matter is irrelevant. The Judge, the attorneys, the accused, the witnesses , the Assessors, the court reporter, the baliffs, the press , the State of the Republic of South Africa, the population of South Africa, etc.. all are absorbed by the one question. . not mere intent.. but what was the intent.

The totality of this trial's existence, is what was the intent.... nothing more, and nothing less.. Intent in and of itself without the qualifier is meaningless.

BBM...Imagine the money the State could have saved if OP had come out with the truth from the get-go. Instead he is circling and circumventing the truth at every possible turn.

IMO a despicable human being. What an affront to his country that worshipped him as a hero.

 

[Trooper]

BBM...Imagine the money the State could have saved if OP had come out with the truth from the get-go. Instead he is circling and circumventing the truth at every possible turn.

IMO a despicable human being. What an affront to his country that worshipped him as a hero.

and no end in sight, Kitty.. I don't see this trial ending before Xmas.

 

[Viper]

Oscar conveniently loses track of time at that part where he holds Reeva feeling 'saddened '... he says.. ' a long time'..( also, this is where he 'screams like he never has before'.. .. )... hard to pin down, isn't it, Viper..

LOL! Yes! I'm probably not going to get a coherent answer to any of my previous timeline questions, because it would be impossible to do given the evidence.

I hope that someone has the courage to layout OPs timeline. I'm sure that Roux is dreading the task.

 

[Trooper]

LOL! Yes! I'm probably not going to get a coherent answer to any of my previous timeline questions, because it would be impossible to do given the evidence.

I hope that someone has the courage to layout OPs timeline. I'm sure that Roux is dreading the task.

yet he has to do it at some stage.. god alone knows how, .. but it has to be credible and above all, possible.

 

[Trooper]

Oscar really has gone for the dumbest defence of all... of course, I acknowledge that he didn't have a lot of time to conjure up one, but looking back thru SA Law Literature, he had a myriad of options..

one bloke got aquitted because he was so enraged when his partner told him he had AIDS< he lost control of his moral functions and offed him instantly..

Another bloke murdered his wife and children, but luckily had a long record of depression and general nuttiness.. he is still detained at the Governors pleasure ..but gets reasonably generous parole every now and then..


another one was aquitted of murder on the grounds of being battered by his wife.. now if Oscar had claimed that Reeva took for him with the cricket bat. .. maybe... one has to put a lot of thought into one's defence, obviously, before the event..

 

[CriLondon]

Carmelita , it all started here , it was your argument and i bib what i find relevant. It is a valid point to discuss imo:

I see a lot of musing about the proper and improper use of the word sad.

Oscar said something other than it made him sad. He said he was overcome with sadness. The is a large difference, overcome with sadness is different than sad, if a movie is sold out and someone says that they are sad because they can’t see the movie, that might be rather normal, if on the other hand that same person says that they are “overcome with sadness” it would be a very odd statement. “Overcome” is a very emotionally and psychologically significant word.

Which , i've tried to express an opinion about here whilst answering FromGermany:

It would be important to define what one means when saying desperate and beside himself .
To me "overcome by sadness" means you cannot feel anything else other than sadness. So when you add "i was panicking" that classifies as fear. So that's a different emotion altogether .Furthermore you add "i was shocked" that classifies as surprise.

You cannot be "overcome by sadness AND have other active/influencing emotions. One would think the natural order would be fear/surprise(shock)/sadness

So you are parsing my example of when someone might use the word sad appropriately and overcome with sadness inappropriately rather than addressing the point OK, seems an odd way to have a constructive conversation but if that is what you need to do, I'll grant your need for a more acceptable scenario for the proper and improper use of sad and overcome with sadness. Curious.

So we will go with your hypothetical, since you feel that you have expressed it better, than me, though you didn't continue on with the salient reason for the hypothetical which is the difference between sad and overcome with sadness so I'd appreciate some elaboration on the point.

So in short , again , i think you have a valid point to discuss.
imo , the only difference is the use of "overcome" implying no other thing can be felt. It's either an inaccurate statement from OP , which would makes sense to me , when he adds "i was panicking"=FEAR "i was shocked"=SURPRISE because it doesn't go together with "overcome".
The only question in your original post , correct me if i'm wrong, was to differentiate being "sad" and "overcome with sadness" and i just thought the subsequent example/comparison wasn't the best to emphasize the point you were , rightly ,trying to make. Sorry if that seemed offensive or irrelevant but at no point i said i couldn't discuss it , just that , imo could be discussed better.

Respectfully