Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[Estelle]

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/694...steenkamp-death-trial-to-begin-again-june-30/

Two things which struck me about this article are:

1. Did Vorster go too far?

Legal analysts said the defense team’s decision to introduce Vorster’s testimony may have backfired. John Welch, former deputy director of South Africa’s public prosecuting authority, said Pistorius’ lawyers may have called the psychiatrist to the stand at such a late stage in the trial to “remedy” the athlete’s own testimony, which has been viewed as unconvincing. But in testifying that Pistorius was anxious, felt vulnerable to crime and may not have intended to kill Steenkamp, Vorster possibly “went too far” in her description of the psychiatric disorder, according to Welch.

2. There could be a two month delay

After his tests, the experts who assess Pistorius would take additional time to compile a report and submit it to the court. That could take another month, raising the possibility of a two-month delay in the trial.

 

[Lyra500]

Hi Estelle & Jake

It is interesting that the clinician who should presumably be in charge of OP's treatment for his anxiety and depression (since they signed the actual prescriptions!), is nowhere to be seen.

As you say, this does make one question whether they actually exist.

Another explanation is that (like some other experts) they appear to want nothing to do with this defence case.

 

[Viper]

Does any of this sound familiar? :smile:

Quote:

In 2012, Johan Kotze, accused of plotting his ex-wife’s gang rape and of killing her son, was sent to Weskoppies to ascertain whether he was fit to stand trial. Three psychiatrists assessed him and he was found to be accountable for his actions. He was convicted of murder in July last year and sentenced to life imprisonment without leave to appeal. The defense argued in mitigation of sentence that he had a narcissistic personality disorder (which some commentators have stated they believe Pistorius has), suffered from an “acute stress disorder,” and had major depression. A psychologist for the state testified that he had no mental disorders and the court should hold him accountable for his actions – which it did.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/murde...rius-shrein-dewani-and-other-accused-killers/

 

[Estelle]

Maybe Dr Vorster named the wrong cluster: IMO it should be Cluster B not C!! I cannot find GAD.

DSM-5 The Ten Personality Disorders:

Cluster C is called the anxious, fearful cluster.

It includes the Avoidant, Dependent, and Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorders. These three personality disorders share a high level of anxiety.

http://sevencounties.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=480&cn=8

 

[Viper]

Hi Estelle & Jake

It is interesting that the clinician who should presumably be in charge of OP's treatment for his anxiety and depression (since they signed the actual prescriptions!), is nowhere to be seen.

As you say, this does make one question whether they actually exist.

Another explanation is that (like some other experts) they appear to want nothing to do with this defence case.

No other psychiatrist was mentioned by Dr. V. She only read a report from over a year ago prepared by Holmes. Psychiatrists are not the only doctors that prescribe medicines, especially medicines related to depression or sleeplessness. Often times the first person to offer these is one's personal or family medicine doctor.

 

[Estelle]

No other psychiatrist was mentioned by Dr. V. She only read a report from over a year ago prepared by Holmes. Psychiatrists are not the only doctors that prescribe medicines, especially medicines related to depression or sleeplessness. Often times the first person to offer these is one's personal or family medicine doctor.

That is true. I have never thought that he had been to a psychiatrist before. But couldn't that GP have given evidence?

 

[Lyra500]

No other psychiatrist was mentioned by Dr. V. She only read a report from over a year ago prepared by Holmes. Psychiatrists are not the only doctors that prescribe medicines, especially medicines related to depression or sleeplessness. Often times the first person to offer these is one's personal or family medicine doctor.

That is true. I have never thought that he had been to a psychiatrist before. But couldn't that GP have given evidence?

I had not thought it would be a psychiatrist either to be honest. Basically any clinician signing a prescription for drugs should be doing so because they have identified what they feel is a clinical need in the patient. I therefore wondered why they had not turned up in court to confirm the clinical need they were treating.

However, if they were treating symptoms which started following the shooting, then I can see why they were not called as this would have no bearing on OP's behaviour on the night of the crime.

If however, OP was receiving treatment for the alleged GAD before 13th Feb 2013, then I am surprised that the treating clinician has not turned up to confirm this and provide their view of the patient's state of mind etc.

I suppose this would back up the speculation that Dr V over stepped the mark with her testimony and this was never a planned part of the defence case.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Good post, Jake. I have also wondered why the person who prescribed those drugs was not asked to testify which made me suspicious as there is no proof that they were subscribed.

What are the Cluster B personality disorders? antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic.

The DSM-IV views these as a subset of personality disorders that are characterized by dramatic, emotional or erratic behavior. The Cluster B personality disorders are also the most common of the DSM-IV personality disorders.



People with antisocial personality disorder have been described as lacking empathy and they may often be deceitful or break the law. Antisocial personality disorder is also associated with impulsive behavior, aggression, disregard for their own or other’s safety, irresponsible behavior, and lack of remorse.



BPD is associated with a tendency to engage in risky behaviors, such as going on shopping sprees, drinking excessive amounts of alcohol or abusing drugs, engaging in promiscuous sex, binge eating, or self-harming.




http://bpd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/clusterB.htm

RBBM

I suffer from BPD as well as several other acronyms. Unfortunately, I have engaged in all the risky behaviors listed. Through therapy and medication, I have overcome all these behaviors, except for self-harming. My BPD (and other acronyms) was brought on by an extremely traumatic childhood.
Sorry for the O/T TMI post. Mods if you need to delete, I understand.

I truly believe education is the key to understanding.

 

[CriLondon]

Hi Estelle & Jake

It is interesting that the clinician who should presumably be in charge of OP's treatment for his anxiety and depression (since they signed the actual prescriptions!), is nowhere to be seen.

As you say, this does make one question whether they actually exist.

Another explanation is that (like some other experts) they appear to want nothing to do with this defence case.

bbm -To this one may add " because they are aware and diagnosed OP with something that will fit him right into cluster B"

From a post Estelle has just uploaded wouldn't OP seem to fit into BPD ? Perhaps with side-traits?

JMO

 

[Suthrnqt]

bbm -To this one may add " because they are aware and diagnosed OP with something that will fit him right into cluster B"

From a post Estelle has just uploaded wouldn't OP seem to fit into BPD ? Perhaps with side-traits?

JMO

I would have guessed anti-social or narcissistic personality disorder.
MOO. :cow:

 

[CriLondon]

I would have guessed anti-social or narcissistic personality disorder.
MOO. :cow:

I thought side-traits because it appears there are indicators of anti-social and narcissistic , but BPD ticks all the boxes , always IMO.

Lack of empathy or remorse , not completely convinced about that. Perhaps diminished sense , but not complete lack of . Some things i've seen appeared too genuine to be fake. Always IMO

 

[Estelle]

From the media and the trial, I have observed many of these traits in OP.

I will now put the ones I have observed in bold. As Jake said, it is probable that he will be diagnosed with Cluster B symptoms.

What are the Cluster B personality disorders? antisocial, borderline, narcissistic and histrionic characterized by dramatic, emotional or erratic behavior.

Antisocial Personality Disorder
* lacking empathy
* deceitful or break the law.
* impulsive behavior
* aggression
* disregard for their own or other’s safety
* irresponsible behavior
* lack of remorse.

Borderline Personality Disorder
* associated with specific problems in interpersonal relationships, self-image, emotions, behaviors, and thinking.
* tend to have intense relationships characterized by a lot of conflict, arguments and break-ups.
* difficulties related to the stability of their identity or sense of self.
* have many "ups and downs" in how they feel about themselves.
* they feel as if they are on an emotional roller coaster, with very quick shifts in mood
* tendency to engage in risky behaviors

Narcissistic personality disorder
* inflated sense of self-importance.
* believe that they are “special,” require excessive attention
* take advantage of others
* lack empathy
* arrogant.

Histrionic personality disorder
* intense expressions of emotion and excessive attention-seeking behavior
* often seek out attention
* are uncomfortable when others are receiving attention
* engage in seductive or sexually promiscuous behavior
* use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves
* demonstrate rapidly shifting emotions and express emotion in a very dramatic fashion.

{\url]http://bpd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/clusterB.htm[/url]

 

[Lyra500]

bbm -To this one may add " because they are aware and diagnosed OP with something that will fit him right into cluster B"

From a post Estelle has just uploaded wouldn't OP seem to fit into BPD ? Perhaps with side-traits?

JMO

Good point! Having him identified as possessing any type of personality disorder (and yes he displays enough of the features to fall into several of the PD categories in my view) would be unlikely to do the defence case any good.

I read an article a while ago which was very interesting (if only I could find the link). It described him as being narcissistic and I do think he shows huge self importance.

 

[Estelle]

I thought side-traits because it appears there are indicators of anti-social and narcissistic , but BPD ticks all the boxes , always IMO.

Lack of empathy or remorse , not completely convinced about that. Perhaps diminished sense , but not complete lack of . Some things i've seen appeared too genuine to be fake. Always IMO

Please give me some examples of where you think OP showed:

1. genuine empathy
2. sincere remorse

“I was simply trying to protect Reeva. When she went to bed that night, she was loved. I have tried to put my words on paper many times, but no words would suffice,” Pistorius testified.

Suffice?
An honest and truly remorseful person would not need to find adequate and appropriate words to explain his actions.
An honest and remorseful person would admit to wrong doing without searching for an excuse or explanation.
An honest and remorseful person would spare his dead girlfriend’s family the emotional devastation of a trial and plead guilty.
An honest and remorseful person would accept the consequences with humility and put his fate in the hands and mercy of the judicial system.

http://www.commdiginews.com/world-n...ng-reeva-steenkamp-13914/#ZcpXFmapv0EvlMEo.99

 

[44ALLAN]

Hi Lithgow1,

I have never said the media made them do it. I have said that their testimony carries less objective validity because they waited so long to come forward, that is my opinion in a nut shell.

( the judge may feel like me that testimony that came a week later on the heels of a media blitz is not credible)..............

That's what you said above in brackets:floorlaugh:

 

[CriLondon]

Good point! Having him identified as possessing that type of personality disorder (and yes he displays enough of the features to fall into the BPD category in my view) would be unlikely to do the defence case any good.

Thank you

Estelle , again , has just uploaded and highlighted what perceived during the trial and doesn't tick all BPD boxes.

I'm not so sure about the sense of self , it appears very fluctuating, from high self-righteousness/inflated self-importance to low self-esteem , and i'd say that because of the often perceived required attention , again IMO.

The lack of empathy/remorse , i'm just not yet convinced about , feel much more confident in saying diminished sense of , always IMO

 

[CriLondon]

Please give me some examples of where you think OP showed:

1. genuine empathy
2. sincere remorse

I can't , because i feel he has a diminished sense , i don't think i've ever seen 1 and 2 .

Sorry , maybe i didn't express myself properly

 

[Lyra500]

Thank you

Estelle , again , has just uploaded and highlighted what perceived during the trial and doesn't tick all BPD boxes.

I'm not so sure about the sense of self , it appears very fluctuating, from high self-righteousness/inflated self-importance to low self-esteem , and i'd say that because of the often perceived required attention , again IMO.

The lack of empathy/remorse , i'm just not yet convinced about , feel much more confident in saying diminished sense of , always IMO

Hi

I have since edited as I think the narcissism is quite predominant.

I do feel he totally lacks empathy - I just think back to his opening statement at the start of the trial. It was introduced as a statement to Reeva's family but was actually a great long speech about how much Oscar had suffered.

The lack of empathy is a family trait in my view - think about the totally inappropriate things they have done and said since the shooting:

• their family is suffering just as much as Reeva's
• barely waiting a moment before challenging ALL of the bail conditions
• having a memorial service on the anniversary of the death
• setting up an OP web page to tell 'the truth' about the case

 

[Estelle]

Thank you

Estelle , again , has just uploaded and highlighted what perceived during the trial and doesn't tick all BPD boxes.

I'm not so sure about the sense of self , it appears very fluctuating, from high self-righteousness/inflated self-importance to low self-esteem , and i'd say that because of the often perceived required attention , again IMO.

The lack of empathy/remorse , i'm just not yet convinced about , feel much more confident in saying diminished sense of , always IMO

I just added an example of what the media said about his so-called remorse in #494 above for you.

I am also not sure about his sense of self. I suspect he covers up his low self-esteem so I would put it in bold but I really do not know for sure.

Basically, I think he shows most of the Cluster B traits.

 

[CriLondon]

I just added an example of what the media said about his so-called remorse in #494 above for you.

I am also not sure about his sense of self. I suspect he covers up his low self-esteem so I would put it in bold but I really do not know for sure.

Basically, I think he shows most of the Cluster B traits.

Just would like to make something clear , in case it got confused:

I agree (to a certain extent , would have LOVED to see him on the stand , then i could answer this much more clearly, for i'd have visual basis , not just words) that the lack of remorse/empathy is , mainly , towards RS amd family (shown at various times and obv open for debate). Or whoever is standing in the way right now and in one way or another has been affected by the charges/incidents put to him.

However , when i said i'm not sure about the lack of remorse , i base that on a video and subsequent pictures (either bbc or sky news) , first days of the trial , he turns around and realizes AP is crying and right then his face muscles slump , the head goes down and forward , shoulders down . That is guilt and remorse , for causing AP to be so broken.

I hope now you see what i mean by diminished sense of , as the way i see it , his remorse appears a bit "selective".

JMO