Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[patCee]

I found this on You Tube. Not exactly "busting his sides" but is the nearest I have seen him get to laughing. It is at the start of an episode of the One Show on the couch with Ronan Keating.

Oscar Pistorius The One Show - YouTube

Thanks for that IB. What a contrast with OP presenting as relaxed, spontaneous, pleasant, courteous and attentive to others. He looks down occasionally with some modesty. Putting aside the need to present well on TV, it makes me wonder what changed for him to be in such a mess now. Is it that he is unable to cope with romantic/intimate relationships, or was something else involved that triggered the various incidents, and that night with RS e.g. alcohol, drugs.

 

[patCee]

Thanks for that IB. What a contrast with OP presenting as relaxed, spontaneous, pleasant, courteous and attentive to others. He looks down occasionally with some modesty. Putting aside the need to present well on TV, it makes me wonder what changed for him to be in such a mess now. Is it that he is unable to cope with romantic/intimate relationships, or was something else involved that triggered the various incidents, and that night with RS e.g. alcohol, drugs.

Just to add, is this just an example of what people have described as NPD, being charming, engaging etc. whilst in a positive situation without being challenged or resisted.

 

[Greater Than]

(I'm back.)

I've been looking all over the net, unsuccessfully, for a terrific article I read a couple of weeks go. It was written by a SA lawyer who was articulate, specific, seemed knowledgeable, and was concise. Since I can't find it, let me try to explain my recollection of it in my best stumbling fashion. It was called the Law of __?___. darn, the name was key to the explanation.

In some countries it may be that if someone intentionally and with premeditation was murdering someone by shooting them, missed, and killed an innocent person instead, the shooter would not/could not be convicted of premeditated murder. They did not pre-meditate killing THAT person. Killing THAT person was an accident.

She said that under SA law, it's not that way. In SA, if someone intentionally and with premeditation is murdering someone by shooting them, misses, and kills an innocent person instead, the shooter WOULD BE guilty of premeditated murder, even though they did not pre-meditate killing the INNOCENT person.

I thought that was fascinating. While I don't know that law well enough to know, in the US where I am, I think in that scenario, the murderer could only be charged with accidental homicide, or whatever it's called.

This woman's point was that, in this case, if OP was intentionally and with premeditation tryin to kill an intruder by shooting them (even if the intruder was a figment of his imagination) and killed Reeva, instead, it's still premeditated murder.
If true, it magnifies the reason why OP doesn't want to admit in any way, shape or form that he shot at "the intruder" with intention and forethought, instead skating around in such a slippery manner that it defies even the whiff of truth.

Welcome back!

Is this the SA attorney's blog you're referring to?

http://criminallawza.net/2013/02/28/what-if-you-shoot-the-wrong-person/

 

[Lyra500]

Just to add, is this just an example of what people have described as NPD, being charming, engaging etc. whilst in a positive situation without being challenged or resisted.

I was about to respond along those lines.

When everything is going his way (and when in the public spotlight on tv etc) he generally manages to channel his charming persona. That's why these people often get so far - they can be incredibly charming.

The mask slipped when he was beaten at the Paralympics in the 200m.

Things seemed to start spiralling out of control starting with that Paralympic loss, then there was the 'leg break' affair with threats and actual fisticuffs, the restaurant shooting and the sun roof incident.

In fact, if someone has not done it already, that might possibly be another interesting timeline. Obviously we can't know every incident as things have been covered up on his behalf, but possibly starting from the boat incident it might be good to get a chronological list of the incidents we do know about and possibly look to identify any potential causative factors. The time lapse between incidents might also be interesting as it appears things were happening more frequently.

The ones I am aware of (apart from the obvious awful culmination) are:

• boat accident
• incident at the concert where he was physically and verbally abusive to two women
• Door slamming incident where he injured a guest and ended up settling out of court
• firing gun in the restaurant
• making verbal threats to break someone's legs (connected to his former girlfriend)
• getting into a physical fight - was this also connected to the Sam/break your legs thing?)
• firing the gun through the sunroof
• shooting the dog without speaking to the owner

Does his tantrum at the Paralympics count?

Could add in the incidents which Reeva referenced in her texts and WhatsApp messages.

Just a thought

 

[patCee]

I was about to respond along those lines.

When everything is going his way (and when in the public spotlight on tv etc) he generally manages to channel his charming persona. That's why these people often get so far - they can be incredibly charming.

The mask slipped when he was beaten at the Paralympics in the 200m.

Things seemed to start spiralling out of control starting with that Paralympic loss, then there was the 'leg break' affair with threats and actual fisticuffs, the restaurant shooting and the sun roof incident.

In fact, if someone has not done it already, that might possibly be another interesting timeline. Obviously we can't know every incident as things have been covered up on his behalf, but possibly starting from the boat incident it might be good to get a chronological list of the incidents we do know about and possibly look to identify any potential causative factors. The time lapse between incidents might also be interesting as it appears things were happening more frequently.

The ones I am aware of (apart from the obvious awful culmination) are:

• boat accident
• incident at the concert where he was physically and verbally abusive to two women
• Door slamming incident where he injured a guest and ended up settling out of court
• firing gun in the restaurant
• making verbal threats to break someone's legs (connected to his former girlfriend)
• getting into a physical fight - was this also connected to the Sam/break your legs thing?)
• firing the gun through the sunroof
• shooting the dog without speaking to the owner

Does his tantrum at the Paralympics count?

Could add in the incidents which Reeva referenced in her texts and WhatsApp messages.

Just a thought

I think there was also an incident in a restaurant when he gave verbal abuse to another customer sitting at a table with his wife. OP lurched into him (drunk) and was verbally abusive to him. His friend helped him move away.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks for that IB. What a contrast with OP presenting as relaxed, spontaneous, pleasant, courteous and attentive to others. He looks down occasionally with some modesty. Putting aside the need to present well on TV, it makes me wonder what changed for him to be in such a mess now. Is it that he is unable to cope with romantic/intimate relationships, or was something else involved that triggered the various incidents, and that night with RS e.g. alcohol, drugs.

I agree he came over quite well. However I think he is very emotionally unstable. All the time his life is going smoothly he copes but we have seen how brittle his temper is when he shot through the sunroof after being stopped by the police. We have read about his anger on losing to a fellow athlete and the constant shouting at people on the phone, enough for his friend to request another room. What made him flip enough to take a gun to Reeva I cannot imagine. I think undoubtedly there was a fierce argument. I don't doubt Van Der Merwe's testimony with respect to the loud argument but IMO we shall never know what it was about.

The blood tests showed no alcohol or drugs but I have read on the forum that the blood tests were not done until the second day after the murder in which case alcohol, if taken, would probably be normal. I have no idea if he took recreational drugs but nothing was found in his blood.

 

[Fuskier]

FYI An insight into the teenage Oscar Pistorius who states that he has adapted to and is quite comfortable with prosthetic legs as he has grown up that way. It also shows his interest in art/drawing and playing his 'jack russell' dog. He answers questions, but IMO there is still something monotone/flat about his affect.

A Teenage Oscar Pistorius on Trans World Sport - YouTube

 

[CriLondon]

Just to add, is this just an example of what people have described as NPD, being charming, engaging etc. whilst in a positive situation without being challenged or resisted.

bbm -also it appears , if i may add , when he's the center of attention , when it's about him , and what he does , how things feel/felt for him , how he sees something.

 

[Fuskier]

I was about to respond along those lines.

When everything is going his way (and when in the public spotlight on tv etc) he generally manages to channel his charming persona. That's why these people often get so far - they can be incredibly charming.

The mask slipped when he was beaten at the Paralympics in the 200m.

Things seemed to start spiralling out of control starting with that Paralympic loss, then there was the 'leg break' affair with threats and actual fisticuffs, the restaurant shooting and the sun roof incident.

In fact, if someone has not done it already, that might possibly be another interesting timeline. Obviously we can't know every incident as things have been covered up on his behalf, but possibly starting from the boat incident it might be good to get a chronological list of the incidents we do know about and possibly look to identify any potential causative factors. The time lapse between incidents might also be interesting as it appears things were happening more frequently.

The ones I am aware of (apart from the obvious awful culmination) are:

• boat accident
• incident at the concert where he was physically and verbally abusive to two women
• Door slamming incident where he injured a guest and ended up settling out of court
• firing gun in the restaurant
• making verbal threats to break someone's legs (connected to his former girlfriend)
• getting into a physical fight - was this also connected to the Sam/break your legs thing?)
• firing the gun through the sunroof
• shooting the dog without speaking to the owner

Does his tantrum at the Paralympics count?

Could add in the incidents which Reeva referenced in her texts and WhatsApp messages.

Just a thought

Add: allegedly being charged with assault of a woman in 2009.

 

[patCee]

I agree he came over quite well. However I think he is very emotionally unstable. All the time his life is going smoothly he copes but we have seen how brittle his temper is when he shot through the sunroof after being stopped by the police. We have read about his anger on losing to a fellow athlete and the constant shouting at people on the phone, enough for his friend to request another room. What made him flip enough to take a gun to Reeva I cannot imagine. I think undoubtedly there was a fierce argument. I don't doubt Van Der Merwe's testimony with respect to the loud argument but IMO we shall never know what it was about.

The blood tests showed no alcohol or drugs but I have read on the forum that the blood tests were not done until the second day after the murder in which case alcohol, if taken, would probably be normal. I have no idea if he took recreational drugs but nothing was found in his blood.

Yes I do remember the blood tests following the shooting of RS was done many hours later. There were also some previous incidents when he was reported to be falling over drunk, as in the 'Kings of Leon' gig. Also in a restaurant when he fell into a man, but I can't find a link for that one.

 

[soozieqtips]

FYI An insight into the teenage Oscar Pistorius who states that he is very comfortable with prosthetic legs as he has grown up that way. It also shows his interest in art/drawing and playing his 'jack russell' dog.

A Teenage Oscar Pistorius on Trans World Sport - YouTube

It was interesting to see him fooling around and having fun with his dog. Makes me wonder how he'd have reacted if someone ran it over and then shot it in the back of the head before driving off without saying a word to him.

 

[Viper]

This is not meant to be funny, but the irony is striking. And although it may appear that jealousy is at the core, it seems more like control of his girlfriend is really at the core.

Quoting another stupid rich young man that killed his girlfriend:

Turner replied: ‘It’s just been a completely weird situation. Just a nightmare. Obviously I have been sad about my girlfriend. This was a year ago.’

He added: ‘I’ve had to contain myself. I’ve got to answer questions and I can’t break down.’

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/man-kills-teen-girlfriend-photos-male-strippers/

 

[patCee]

This is not meant to be funny, but the irony is striking. And although it may appear that jealousy is at the core, it seems more like control of his girlfriend is really at the core.

Quoting another stupid rich young man that killed his girlfriend:

Turner replied: ‘It’s just been a completely weird situation. Just a nightmare. Obviously I have been sad about my girlfriend. This was a year ago.’

He added: ‘I’ve had to contain myself. I’ve got to answer questions and I can’t break down.’

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/man-kills-teen-girlfriend-photos-male-strippers/

I remember that case, didn't his parents delay seeking help for his girlfriend, or to report the situation? Very strange.

 

[CriLondon]

FYI An insight into the teenage Oscar Pistorius who states that he has adapted to and is quite comfortable with prosthetic legs as he has grown up that way. It also shows his interest in art/drawing and playing his 'jack russell' dog.

A Teenage Oscar Pistorius on Trans World Sport - YouTube

From the video above , image stopped at 1:58

 

[Fuskier]

From the video above , image stopped at 1:58

View attachment 43844

Thanks for picking that up CriLondon. I was hoping you would have a look at the video. He had that left/right engaged/disengaged facial expression way back then, so not the result of the boat accident and facial reconstruction IMO. His affect seems monotone/flat in that video.

 

[fox1lady]

I agree he came over quite well. However I think he is very emotionally unstable. All the time his life is going smoothly he copes but we have seen how brittle his temper is when he shot through the sunroof after being stopped by the police. We have read about his anger on losing to a fellow athlete and the constant shouting at people on the phone, enough for his friend to request another room. What made him flip enough to take a gun to Reeva I cannot imagine. I think undoubtedly there was a fierce argument. I don't doubt Van Der Merwe's testimony with respect to the loud argument but IMO we shall never know what it was about.

The blood tests showed no alcohol or drugs but I have read on the forum that the blood tests were not done until the second day after the murder in which case alcohol, if taken, would probably be normal. I have no idea if he took recreational drugs but nothing was found in his blood.

In this picture taken the day of the murder, it says that he was taken to the hospital after the police station... not sure how long after though

www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-p...lice-station-on-february-news-photo/161734344

 

[CriLondon]

Thanks for picking that up CriLondon. I was hoping you would have a look at the video. He had that left/right engaged/disengaged facial expression way back then, so not the result of the boat accident and facial reconstruction IMO. His affect seems monotone/flat in that video.

You're welcome , no trouble. In fact i'm interested by the whole sequence 1:50-1:58. Three very different emotions in 8 seconds , not bad:

 

[CriLondon]

Thanks for picking that up CriLondon. I was hoping you would have a look at the video. He had that left/right engaged/disengaged facial expression way back then, so not the result of the boat accident and facial reconstruction IMO. His affect seems monotone/flat in that video.

rbbm - Wouldn't think so when one looks at this:



It can only be subconscious at this early age , that's what interests me , a lot.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

I agree he came over quite well. However I think he is very emotionally unstable. All the time his life is going smoothly he copes but we have seen how brittle his temper is when he shot through the sunroof after being stopped by the police. We have read about his anger on losing to a fellow athlete and the constant shouting at people on the phone, enough for his friend to request another room. What made him flip enough to take a gun to Reeva I cannot imagine. I think undoubtedly there was a fierce argument. I don't doubt Van Der Merwe's testimony with respect to the loud argument but IMO we shall never know what it was about.

The blood tests showed no alcohol or drugs but I have read on the forum that the blood tests were not done until the second day after the murder in which case alcohol, if taken, would probably be normal. I have no idea if he took recreational drugs but nothing was found in his blood.

Hi IB...what I remember is that he went to the hospital for blood tests after being detained at the police station for hours. Someone else, many threads ago, said he went to the hospital first, but I don't think so. In any case, he was tested several or many hours since his last drink.

I have always thought that many of his rages are alcohol fueled, but that doesn't explain his constantly yelling at people on the phone so badly that his Olympics roommate had to switch rooms.

 

[BatGunKick]

Hello all. I'm going to jump around a bit, but it's quicker than separate posts...

1. Came a cross a South African reporter today on twitter, who had his bio reading "I'm not interested in your Oscar Pistorius theories." Boggles my mind that any reporter can have a blanket ban on specific debate. Anyhoooo, here's toasting to us mere web sleuths who adhere to the notion: “All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings.” - Denis Diderot

2. Anyone else find the blood pooling on the toilet floor in front of the toilet odd? I know that experts stated she was slumped on the toilet seat itself, but to me for so much blood to pool on the floor (and no disturbance of the magazine rack), surely it is more plausible that she fell to the floor and lay there bleeding. OP himself said:“I sat over Reeva and I cried" as well as "When I picked her up my hand touched her head" ... Crying over someone, means they are lower than you.
? Only OP gives the version she was sitting on the magazine rack, slumped with her head on her arm resting on the toilet seat (possibly to make out like she went to the toilet as usual). To me it just seems a very odd position to fall into. Also, in my suspicions of the door being unlocked at the time of the shooting, he would surely have gone in and checked if she was breathing, and if she had managed to call the police... so if she was slumped against the toilet seat in a sitting position, checking her vitals would have tipped her head back, causing blood into the back area of the toilet on the right hand side, and into the bowl. not so much in the front on the floor? (I may be stretching too far on this). Input welcome.

3. Just an anecdote regarding all the talk of OP hugging the therapist. Is it not his aunt Lois? I had a therapist who hugged me after each session - it was VERY unprofessional, and I switched! :floorlaugh: OP's body language is very detached - even sometimes with Aimee. Which brings me to this picture - sure looks like she would do anything for him, hide a watch, phone...