jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[flipflop]

Ah, yes, thank you for responding.

[BTW, I'm thinking LE could have gotten the 50-minute radius from cell phone pings, or LTM's story, or both, or other factors we don't know about yet. I believe the drive from Home Depot in Guelph to the remains site is one hour even (per Googlemaps and my understanding of the locations). There are alleged reports of MR being a habitual speeder, though.]--

However, I must apologize for my unclear query re whether we "really know this for a fact" (in response to your OP about him "waiting"). I wasn't actually asking about how long it took to arrive at the murder site.

To clarify: My speculation was not about how long he waited to sexually assault poor little Tori, but rather whether he actually did wait.

Could TLM have altered the story? Is it possible that Tori was actually assaulted immediately or very shortly after her abduction, and then assaulted again later, just before she was killed at the disposal site? Just something I've pondered.

Evidence/testimony to come will surely nail down the timeline -- and may rule out the possibility of her having been assaulted any time prior to their arrival in Guelph to obtain the implements of her death and disposal.

TLM's testimony about Tori begging her by the rock pile not to let him do it again -- and TLM's incomprehensible lack of mercy -- is so tragic and haunting. :cry:

May there be Justice for Victoria.

Home Depot in Guelph to MF is exactly 50min driving on highway 6. Even though MR was supposedly a "speeder", Im guessing he watched his speed limit with having a kidnapped child in the car. He was listening to the radio for reports of the missing child, therefore, he would have been very careful not to attract the attention of any cops in the area.

 

[roseofsharon]

Just of note, when MR is posing in this pic, he is using his left arm to stage a punch. I'm right-handed and it feels really awkward to do this.
I realize when boxing, you use both arms, but would right-handed person do this for a pose. Just wondering, I have no idea really.

 

[dilbert]

Home Depot in Guelph to MF is exactly 50min driving on highway 6. Even though MR was supposedly a "speeder", Im guessing he watched his speed limit with having a kidnapped child in the car. He was listening to the radio for reports of the missing child, therefore, he would have been very careful not to attract the attention of any cops in the area.

This makes sense to me about not speeding in case he got pulled over, but then why would he stop at Tim's, which are notoriously busy, and park near people at Home Depot, all with a kidnapped child in the car. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[swedie]

In the home depot pics/video TLM uses her right hand when scanning the hammer at the check out. She is also carrying the bag of purchases with her right hand.

The hand writing in the journal seems to match with the writing on the detailed maps of the murder site. IMO TLM wrote both!

Thanks FF. Her writing seems very typical of a left handed person. The writing/printing tends to slant from left to right as TLMs does. Maybe she's ambidextrous. Maybe MR is left handed? Got to go looking for detailed pictures. I remember a picture of him sitting in a blue car, holding cigarette in his left hand. Either way I am hopefully forensics were able to determine who did what to Tori, seeing as TLM changed her story of who actually killed Tori with the hammer and who kicked her.:moo:

 

[dilbert]

Just of note, when MR is posing in this pic, he is using his left arm to stage a punch. I'm right-handed and it feels really awkward to do this.
I realize when boxing, you use both arms, but would right-handed person do this for a pose. Just wondering, I have no idea really.

Would this mean he's right handed then since he's guarding with his right hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#Stance

In a fully upright stance, the boxer stands with the legs shoulder-width apart and the rear foot a half-step in front of the lead man. Right-handed or orthodox boxers lead with the left foot and fist (for most penetration power). Both feet are parallel, and the right heel is off the ground. The lead (left) fist is held vertically about six inches in front of the face at eye level. The rear (right) fist is held beside the chin and the elbow tucked against the ribcage to protect the body.

Left-handed or southpaw fighters use a mirror image of the orthodox stance, which can create problems for orthodox fighters unaccustomed to receiving jabs, hooks, or crosses from the opposite side. The southpaw stance, conversely, is vulnerable to a straight right hand

 

[Desdemona]

At 0:58 you can see TLM getting out of the passenger side of the car just as someone returns to their car which is parked right NEXT to MR's car.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/video/video-mcclintics-journals-shown-to-court/article2369933/

Is that an odd little sort of "hop" she does there? Or just an artifact of the quality of the replay on the surveillance footage?

JMO

 

[swedie]

This makes sense to me about not speeding in case he got pulled over, but then why would he stop at Tim's, which are notoriously busy, and park near people at Home Depot, all with a kidnapped child in the car. It doesn't make any sense.

Maybe Tori was fed some oxys to mellow her? Maybe MR needed a tea/drink to take his oxys? Maybe the tunes were so loud no one would her Tori if she did scream? Maybe Tori was threatened verbally or physically when she was vocal. According to TLM she made numerous claims how MR got mad when TLM and Tori tried to talk, make conversation. Maybe MR lied to Tori at each stop and promised her a reward or told her after this stop we'll take you home? We know from all the blunders MR and TLM made that day, they weren't the brightest crayons in the box kwim. :cow:

 

[ChaChaCha]

Would this mean he's right handed then since he's guarding with his right hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#Stance

Unless the photo of MR was flipped? It is easily done with most. Photo editing software ...

 

[antiquegirl]

Do we know when TLM actually reversed her story and admitted that it was she and not MTR who kicked and beat Tori? Could it be that LE confronted her with forensic evidence already to prove that and that's why she was forced to tell the truth?

We will find out what the forensic evidence shows, but I am certain that LE and both sides of the law have known this for a long time. It's possible that there will be no way to prove it one way or the other, but I think the difference in the weight, height, and strength of the two accused might be a big clue to the experts.

JMO

 

[dilbert]

Unless the photo of MR was flipped? It is easily done with most. Photo editing software ...

You're right, plus, maybe he's ambidextrous.

 

[Desdemona]

Home Depot in Guelph to MF is exactly 50min driving on highway 6. Even though MR was supposedly a "speeder", Im guessing he watched his speed limit with having a kidnapped child in the car. He was listening to the radio for reports of the missing child, therefore, he would have been very careful not to attract the attention of any cops in the area.

LOL, I originally added exactly that thought, but edited it out due to the length of my post. (And also because there are other choices this pair made that show a bizarre lack of such caution.) So I agree. And you are probably right about that. JMO

As for driving time, I Googlemapped it based on my understanding of the location of the site, east of MF and got one hour, 0 minutes. But I could be mistaken about the location.

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Thanks FF. Her writing seems very typical of a left handed person. The writing/printing tends to slant from left to right as TLMs does. Maybe she's ambidextrous. Maybe MR is left handed? Got to go looking for detailed pictures. I remember a picture of him sitting in a blue car, holding cigarette in his left hand. Either way I am hopefully forensics were able to determine who did what to Tori, seeing as TLM changed her story of who actually killed Tori with the hammer and who kicked her.:moo:

TLM has already confessed to killing Tori on the witness stand and has already said her statement to the police was a lie and reconfirmed, while on the stand that she was the one who wielded the hammer and not MR. The Crown mentioned in their opening statement that the jury does not have to decide who actually committed the murder, only that they acted together and they could then return the verdict of guilty. My opinion is the coroner will say death was caused by blunt force trauma and won't say whether the hammer was wielded by a right handed or left handed person. It appears to me, from what I have read so far about the trial, the Crown's case is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MR was there at the time of the murder and not prove that he actually committed the murder. JMO.

 

[siestalola]

I would guess the photo was taken from his right side so that he could display his tat on his right shoulder he therefore dropped his right arm so his face would be visible in the photo.

Also I did some boxing for a short length of time and a boxer does have a dominant punching arm but is trained on both sides to defend as well as punch. In other words from this photo I don't believe you can conclude whether he is right or left handed.

MOO

 

[Desdemona]

This makes sense to me about not speeding in case he got pulled over, but then why would he stop at Tim's, which are notoriously busy, and park near people at Home Depot, all with a kidnapped child in the car. It doesn't make any sense.

:waitasec: Nope, none.

Is the Tim's visit proven via evidence? I haven't heard.

Isn't Tim's a donut shop? (TLM used to work at one Tim's location, yes?) And do I understand correctly that there's a different, smaller donut shop at the location of the Esso station as well? Donuts. Oh well.

 

[dilbert]

:waitasec: Nope, none.

Is the Tim's visit proven via evidence? I haven't heard.

Isn't Tim's a donut shop? (TLM used to work at one Tim's location, yes?) And do I understand correctly that there's a different, smaller donut shop at the location of the Esso station as well? Donuts. Oh well.

I don't think we've seen evidence of the Tim's visit yet, only TLM's testimony that they stopped there.

ETA, yes there is a donut shop at the ESSO where we've seen the car in surveillance video, but there hasn't been any suggestion that either of them went inside.

 

[Kamille]

This makes sense to me about not speeding in case he got pulled over, but then why would he stop at Tim's, which are notoriously busy, and park near people at Home Depot, all with a kidnapped child in the car. It doesn't make any sense.

I wouldn't say he parked near people from that video. He parked pretty far from the entrance to the store where most of the people would have been. Why wouldn't he have just pulled up in front and dropped TLM off if he had nothing to worry about? And the spot he is in has quite a bit of space between his car and the cars on either side, both of which obviously had no one in them until that one person actually walked up to one of them. And then he would have looked pretty suspicious pulling away with TLM getting out of the car at the same time. His windows were also tinted practically black so I'm sure there was no issue about what people could see in the car from any distance, especially if Victoria was being forced to lay on the floor under a black coat. I also noticed that TLM didn't swing the door open wide to get out but appeared to slide out of a narrow opening and quickly shut the door again. All very strange and suspicious behaviours for a quick run into HD to buy some items for an innocent reason to me.

MOO

 

[matou]

I think MR really liked his timmies since that really looks like a Tim Horton's cup in his hand on the date video footage. JMO The video surveillance and bank records chapter will be coming up after TLM's cross-examination. FWIW, if MR drove with his left arm sitting on top of the steering wheel, does that indicate something about handedness? I think he's a lefty but that's MOO. The esso footage again: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...llance-video-in-stafford-case/article2361397/

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I would guess the photo was taken from his right side so that he could display his tat on his right shoulder he therefore dropped his right arm so his face would be visible in the photo.

Also I did some boxing for a short length of time and a boxer does have a dominant punching arm but is trained on both sides to defend as well as punch. In other words from this photo I don't believe you can conclude whether he is right or left handed.

MOO

How funny, I thought about the tattoo but was afraid to say anything because I'm a girl.

 

[dilbert]

I wouldn't say he parked near people from that video. He parked pretty far from the entrance to the store where most of the people would have been. Why wouldn't he have just pulled up in front and dropped TLM off if he had nothing to worry about? And the spot he is in has quite a bit of space between his car and the cars on either side, both of which obviously had no one in them until that one person actually walked up to one of them. And then he would have looked pretty suspicious pulling away with TLM getting out of the car at the same time. His windows were also tinted practically black so I'm sure there was no issue about what people could see in the car from any distance, especially if Victoria was being forced to lay on the floor under a black coat. I also noticed that TLM didn't swing the door open wide to get out but appeared to slide out of a narrow opening and quickly shut the door again. All very strange and suspicious behaviours for a quick run into HD to buy some items for an innocent reason to me.

MOO

It appears to me he parked where he did because all the center spaces were taken. Seeing as he backed in to the parking spot, maybe he parked taking up both spaces because he sucks at backing up? I'm not sure why he didn't drop her off at the front of the store, but he certainly had no problems driving closer to the store to pick her up.

MOO

 

[matou]

Smoke in his left hand. http://www.cp24.com/gallery/html/rafferty_090522/photo_8.html