Kaine tells us about Terri and PPD - what role does it play in this case, if any?

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I also question why more wasn't done by BOTH parents to protect Kyron if they had so many concerns, I'm not judging just know from my own experience that mothers do have "gut instincts" and I've used mine to protect my kids. Very frustrated with the twist and turns.
 
I imagine it would not have been as easy as Desiree just saying "Kyron is staying with me." I get what you're saying, Calliope, but it's hard when custody is involved. What is even harder still is to imagine the grief and guilt that Desiree is feeling, though the guilt is more than likely completely undeserved on her part. Now she and Kaine are a united front, but before this, who knows what has gone on regarding custody of Kyron.

I think we need to realize that Kaine and Desiree are going through all kinds of emotions, they are talking much more freely now. We all are capable of saying and feeling contradictory things. It's one thing to believe that the woman your ex-husband married is a liar and a whole 'nother thing to imagine the woman to be capable of what she is suspected of: Disappearing her step-son and seeking to have her husband murdered.

I would guess that we would all be "blindsided" by the enormity of this, even if we couldn't stand another person.

Just my opinion and thoughts on this.


The fact that it occured to DY IMMEDIATELY that TH did something to Kyron tells me she knew Terri was "not right". Maybe DY did ask Kaine for custody of Kyron but Kaine was too selfish to give Kyron back, despite the problems Terri was having. Maybe her sons being sent to grandparents had something to do with HER mental problems and not so much the sons school and grades issues, and butting heads or whatever. Of course Kaine never dreamed Terri was capable of trying to find a hit man to off him or taking his child and doing whatever it is she has done with Kyron. But the family dynamics could have been such that Kyron returning to live with Dy was not even an option. Too bad, summertime would have been the perfect time for him to transition to his moms house and get him enrolled in a new school. But, hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew what TH was capable of, planning, thinking or going through.
 
I apologize if this has already been dicussed, its hard to keep up :)

I do not have children, so I guess I don't understand or have experience with PPD.

For those of you that have experienced this, do the mood swings really swing that rapidly? I live in Houston, so of course I know of Yates, but do women really feel the need to hurt their child? I'm trying to see how this diagnosis/condition can lend itself to a possible homicide/kidnapping/murder for hire plot. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm just trying to learn. TIA!

for myself, i don't actually recall having rapid mood swings, although a lot of it seems a blur to me now. i do recall an overwhelming feeling of just overall despondency and hopelessness. also that everything seemed really daunting and overwhelming. very small tasks seemed nearly impossible. also anxiety and being paranoid at every little thing, the phone ringing, a car driving up the street etc. i had a terrible and completely irrational fear that children's services was going to "find out" that i was unfit and just come remove all my kids. there was absolutely no basis for this. lastly and darkest for me was that i had very real fantasies/delusions of just walking away and disappearing from my life and that my family would be so much better off if i were not part of it. again no basis for this. i guess looking back i did have significant swings between being extremely fearful and "amped up" to being very hopeless and "why bother". hope that helps
 
I'm not buying it either..Now.. I'll go read the comments at that link..JMO

Here's the thing, I keep seeing people suspecting/disbelieving everything that comes out of Kaine's mouth, but if he's making stuff up, it would backfire quickly and with very dire consequences to him, such as suddenly the investigation turns towards the liar, and away from TH, or he loses his custody and RO case to TH because he has been disproved as a huge liar. I am confused why some doubt his veracity. The things people are doubting, such as whether LE told him there is probable cause to believe TH tired to hire someone to kill him, or that she did something to Kyron, or that she had post-partum, or that he was at work at the times he said he was on the day Kyron disappeared - all things I have seen people state they do not believe or mistrust - these are things easily proved or disproved. So until LE says, or a media source or a court of law finds, that Kaine is lying, why believe he is lying? That makes no sense. If he was found to be lying about these things, which LE could quickly determine, it would look very suspicious and the focus, I think, would quickly shift. My opinion is he is not lying. LE would have shifted their tack by now, if he was.
 
MY DD who is bi polar is also a rapid cycler and getting her meds "right" has taken since January, trying this, changing that, adding this, stopping that, and dose increases and decreases. Getting the right combination is very tricky and after the correct meds are finally figured out, the BP person has to be diligent about taking them everyday, and not stopping them when they feel better. Its a classic sign of BP's to go off their meds when they are feeling better and then they crash and its a big mess. I remind my DD everyday by phone to be sure sure taking her meds.

I know how she feels! The rapid cycling can be hell, and I was always afraid, in times when I felt "ok" that someone was going to think I was losing it!

I've told my doctor that, now that my meds are right, I"m staying on them until the day i die! I have a two week "med-minder" and, yes, my mom and dad call all the time to make sure I'm still taking them regularly! You are a good mom ;)

OT, I know....but we've all been sharing some amazing stuff here. Makes me think that more people need support systems in there lives where they can talk it out and not feel so alone. Sometimes, all you really need is to know you aren't the only one going through something. I wonder if Terri had that?
 
The fact that it occured to DY IMMEDIATELY that TH did something to Kyron tells me she knew Terri was "not right". Maybe DY did ask Kaine for custody of Kyron but Kaine was too selfish to give Kyron back, despite the problems Terri was having. Maybe her sons being sent to grandparents had something to do with HER mental problems and not so much the sons school and grades issues, and butting heads or whatever. Of course Kaine never dreamed Terri was capable of trying to find a hit man to off him or taking his child and doing whatever it is she has done with Kyron. But the family dynamics could have been such that Kyron returning to live with Dy was not even an option. Too bad, summertime would have been the perfect time for him to transition to his moms house and get him enrolled in a new school. But, hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew what TH was capable of, planning, thinking or going through.

my grandmother raised my cousin and his mother ALWAYS had an opinion about EVERYTHING, critizied decisions, made accusations, BUT never tried to get him, we are ALL assuming DY is a loving mother because she is heart broken etc. right now....WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS LITTLE BOY AND WE ARE HEARTBROKEN, for all we know DY and TH had issues because TH felt like she was Kyron's mother and DY didn't like that BUT didn't want him fulltime, we really don't know what went on prior this.
 
I also question why more wasn't done by BOTH parents to protect Kyron if they had so many concerns, I'm not judging just know from my own experience that mothers do have "gut instincts" and I've used mine to protect my kids. Very frustrated with the twist and turns.

ITA..which is why I can't decide whether KH and DY have seen things that seem off for the last 7 1/2 years, or whether their comments are coming from a "hindsight is 20/20" type of thing. Are they just putting things together now?
 
He told WW the illness came on after the birth of their daughter K 19 months ago and lasted well over a year.

“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.

**snip**

He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.

“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”

**snip**

I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do,” he said. “And after the six months, things seemed to be OK

**snip**

Sound like PPD began shortly after baby girl was born, treatment was started, and she showed symptoms of erratic behavior until a couple months ago? Did she go off her medication? How terrible for her...for everyone. moo

To read - click on first heading in "posted in" right under the picture.

PLEASE REMEMBER - do NOT USE MINOR'S NAME...BABY GIRL, BABY K ETC. THANKS

http://www.wweek.com/


Rapid mood swings are consistent with many other psychiatric illnesses in addition to PPD. These include: Bipolar Disorder, Cyclothymia, numerous personality disorders, numerous forms of substance abuse, and dependency "issues." Also, rapid mood swings are consistent with non-psychiatric illnesses. Examples of these are found in the endocrine disorders or brain disorders.

Just because a new mom has mood swings does not mean she MUST have PPD.
(IMO.... I'd first check the liquor cabinet for "magically" disappearing bottles.)
 
ITA..which is why I can't decide whether KH and DY have seen things that seem off for the last 7 1/2 years, or whether their comments are coming from a "hindsight is 20/20" type of thing. Are they just putting things together now?

I think that's what they've been saying. Talking about being blindsided and at the same time having lots of concerns. IMO it's the hindsight phenomenon when lots of things that you thought odd, concerning, irritating or wanted to consider harmless at the time get a new scary meaning when something actually happens.

Few children would ever be hurt if people could correctly interpret all the warning signs all the time and act promptly upon them. Often people find it quite hard to believe that bad things could happen in their family, their loved ones could do something evil and want to think that things will work out in the end.

I think it's a shielding mechanism because we'd go crazy if we always gave everything the worst possible interpretation but it can work against us when there is real cause for concern and we ignore it.

Of course it's also possible that some things they remember are a bit tinted now with the current suspicions. There must have been good moments but they're now just mentioning the bad ones because they seem more relevant currently.
 
If only custody arrangments were as easy to change as some believe. It's not, I've seen enough of them to know. My heart goes out to DY, I'm pretty sure her coulda woulda shoulda's are much bigger then anything we can imagine.

I am not saying they are easy or cheap, but I'm saying when I thought my daughter was in danger I spent 2 1/2 years in court was in court at least every 60 days and spent $30,000....not EASY BUT I got supervised visits, protecting her was my #1 priority....I feel very sorry for DY and I am sure her shoulda woulda coulda moments are awful, but if we are going to pick apart EVERYTHING else and speculate about EVERYONE let's be fair. She had a reason for believing TH was responsible if it was her first thought when she got the call....what had she done to protect her son?
 
It might be that she suspected Terri of being able to hurt Kyron even before nothing happened but I don't think this reaction is evidence of it. I imagine that a person might think so as a knee-jerk reaction even if they haven't had any particular suspicions but do have some negative feelings.

Also, we don't know what Terri said and in what kind of tone and some of that may have caused a reaction in Desiree, and she may also have thought that it was odd that Terri or Kaine didn't call her themselves, even though it's clear that Terri had her phone with her since Desiree said that the school secretary said she had been asked to call her and she called Terri immediately after hanging up the conversation with the secretary. So, Terri and Kaine could just as easily have called her themselves and it may have already struck her as odd that they didn't, even before talking to Terri.

I find it interesting that she says she called Terri, not Kaine.

I don't think Desiree thought Terri could hurt Kyron. Baby K was 7 months old at the end of last school year. They could have transitioned Kyron then if there was major concerns. I definitely do not think that she tried to have Kyron come live with her in the 18 months because she had concerns and Kaine wouldn't let him.

Desiree is being very classy and restrained, but her feelings are written all over her face. Her feelings for Terri are crystal clear. She does not have that type of anger towards Kaine that she does towards Terri. If she had tried to take Kyron back and Kaine said no, she would be almost as angry at him as she is at Terri.

I think it's possible her instincts kicked in immediately upon hearing he was missing. If the step mother OR baby sitter of my child asked the school secretary to call and tell me my child was missing, THAT would raise some huge red flags for me.

I think it probably contributed to Desiree's immediately thinking "She better not have done anything to my son." It immediately struck me as "wow, she couldn't even call and tell her that herself? What was she afraid of if the school lost him?" Even Ron Cummings called Crystal! He didn't ask the cops to do it for him. I would immediately pick up the phone and call her, right after making sure the cops were on their way.

I don't find it at all odd that Desiree called Terri and not Kaine. The school secretary told her that Terri asked her to call and tell her. There was no mention of Kaine. Of course she would call Terri because Terri is obviously the person who would know something since they are there.

I can also see how what Terri told her would bother her. Quite a bit of detail if it's not asked for. I would be franitc "They are saying Kyron wasn't here all day!!! He was here this morning but they are saying he hasn't been here all day!! Why didn't they call me!! This can't be right!"

Terri gives all the detail about the Science fair, walking towards the classroom but not into it, says that was the last she saw him. It just seems odd if Desiree did not question her further to give so much detail. So I can also see that raising red flags too.

Then when you add in the hindsight... I can understand how they are so sure of her involvement regardless of any previous red flags.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6661870n&tag=related;photovideo

"Desiree Young, Kyron's mother, said she was at work June 4 in southern Oregon when she received a phone call from the Skyline School secretary. The secretary told Young that Terri Horman, Kyron's stepmother, asked her to call and inform her that Kyron was missing.

Young said she immediately called Terri Horman, who was the last person to see Kyron, according to investigators.

"I said, 'What in the hell is going on?' She informed me that she had gone to the science fair that morning and she did not walk into his classroom, but saw him walk toward his classroom and that was the last she saw him," Young told CNN. "He was marked absent at 10."
 
I am not saying they are easy or cheap, but I'm saying when I thought my daughter was in danger I spent 2 1/2 years in court was in court at least every 60 days and spent $30,000....not EASY BUT I got supervised visits, protecting her was my #1 priority....I feel very sorry for DY and I am sure her shoulda woulda coulda moments are awful, but if we are going to pick apart EVERYTHING else and speculate about EVERYONE let's be fair. She had a reason for believing TH was responsible if it was her first thought when she got the call....what had she done to protect her son?

I actually posted that on the wrong thread. As for myself, I have not picked apart anybody so I won't take that as directed at me. I find it non productive to go with the picking apart that starts to happen, we simply still do not have enough facts and I don't even know what to think about these press conf. that KH and DY are holding other then I have some feelings about picking apart DY for the custody issue. I applaud your efforts, I know from personal experience how hard custody issues can be and $$$$
 
IMO you might think "What did you do to him, you witch" if you just deeply dislike somebody even if you never thought she was an actual danger to children before.

I think if there used to be a messy divorce and strained relationship with your ex's new wife a lot of gut reactions might have been explained away as the result of the jealousy, anger, bitterness and any other negative feelings that might persist between two women in such a situation and if people are trying to establish a good working relationship they may try to ignore such feelings.

Besides, you might need some kind of evidence for the courts to give you full custody. An apparently well cared for child might not be removed from his established home just because the mother has a bad feeling about the stepmom.
 
Rapid mood swings are consistent with many other psychiatric illnesses in addition to PPD. These include: Bipolar Disorder, Cyclothymia, numerous personality disorders, numerous forms of substance abuse, and dependency "issues." Also, rapid mood swings are consistent with non-psychiatric illnesses. Examples of these are found in the endocrine disorders.

Just because a new mom has mood swings does not mean she MUST have PPD.
(IMO.... I'd first check the liquor cabinet for "magically" disappearing bottles.)

Pensfan, I am using your post to jump off of, I hope you don't mind.

I'm hoping that there is someone here that knows the distinct difference between PPD and PPP.

I don't know much about PPP. (Although I do know about PPD, it is only a personal experience where I had to have treatment after my 5th child, which lasted only 6 months approx.)

I do understand that PPD (or even general depression can run on a scale so to speak and that each individual will have simular symptoms but the severity will vary).

When we seen cases where an infant or toddler is murdered by their natural Mother it is usually attributed to PPP. Postpartum Psychosis.

I'm trying to remember where we have seen PPD instead of PPP attributed as the reason an infant or toddler were murdered.

I thought about this last night when I went to bed. There was a spate of murders of children over a few years in TX a while back. But those children were all murdered by their natural mothers who in turn were suffering from PPD (or found to be suffering from another form of psychosis).

Now, FWIW, if TH had murdered baby girl then I wouldn't have a problem with this being suggested as a possible illness for TH. (PPP).

But did TH have psychotic symptoms? How hard is it to hide psychosis from your family for 19 months? She had meds so apparently she had been seeing a doc I can assume?

I just posted this because I know there are members here that have posted about these two different illnesses in the past and I wanted to get a handle inside my own head of the probability of either of these being a factor in TH's behavior?

TIA for any insight! :)
 
Snipped for space. I agree.

Except:
Even Ron Cummings called Crystal! He didn't ask the cops to do it for him.

No, he didn't. His mother did.

"I said, 'What in the hell is going on?' She informed me that she had gone to the science fair that morning and she did not walk into his classroom, but saw him walk toward his classroom and that was the last she saw him," Young told CNN. "He was marked absent at 10."

If this is a reasonably accurate recap of what Terri said the first thing and she didn't leave out anything it would concern me too because Terri is basically focusing on herself and her last sighting here. I last saw him at school and that's all I know.

It turns out it was important because it was the last known sighting of Kyron but I doubt that anybody except the perp knew what the last sighting was at that time.

(I don't know if anything else was known at that point of time so her last sighting might have been all she knew though...)
Compare it to a fictional story:
"He wasn't in the school bus and the school said he had been absent all day, I took him to school in the morning so I don't really understand what happened but he must have disappeared before his first class. Where can he have gone? I'm so worried... When can you come?"

BACK ON TOPIC:
Someone asked about psychotic symptoms. Usually psychotic symptoms are quite apparent and worrying to the family when it's sudden or bad enough but sometimes the start may be so insidious that people don't really notice until it gets real bad. And there are different types of psychotic symptoms. Severe hallucinations and weird behavior are more noticeable but if somebody tends to isolate himself, talks very little or is guarded about talking his symptoms, is otherwise apathetic and the symptoms are more in his mind than his behavior it may be chalked up to some milder disorder such as depression etc.

This is in regards of untreated psychosis. If the patient is on medication and it's working well they may seem pretty normal or at least functional enough. Some odd thought patterns may be evident if you talk long enough, but the difference between good times and bad times may be striking.
 
PPD is linked with too many horrid crimes. ADs don't help in all cases and can make things worse. Down near the bottom of this article, this Oregon case is noted.
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=postpartum

There are even cases in which children are returned to a mother who's murdered a child (to find the particular example in this article, scroll down past all of the Andrea Yates articles and a couple beyond.
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/post-partum-depression/news-and-features.html?page=2

PPD may be a mitigating factor, but it doesn't guarentee no sentence.
 

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