KC defense team.What now?

[BondJamesBond]

If the defense team will be working the ZFG-story I thought I'd bring this over from the Sticky Forum where ButWhatIf posted Iassen's IM's. IMHO, this won't help the ZFG-did-it alibi any...

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, ButWhatif. I'd read them in pdf amongst other material, but, this really brings it into focus.

Now I'm seeing in context for the first time the very text that should ABSOLUTELY sink the ZFG-kidnapped Caylee alibi...(as if it really needed more help sinking).

SUNDAY 13TH JULY

ID So what do you do when you work? with the kid that is
KC: I have a nanny. i love her
ID Nice. how much do they charge?
KC: We've been friends for over 6 years. definitely someone i trust. ​

...ok...so, as a juror go waaaaaaaaaay out on a limb and say you buy the whole ZFG-kidnapping story (I know, I know)....now...if while out there on that limb you tell yourself Casey was secretly searching for Caylee & ZFG but worried about telling anyone for fear of Caylee being harmed, etc. So...still out there on that limb...you convinced yourself Casey's not telling anyone what's gone terribly wrong....now you read the text highlighted above that Casey wrote on 7/13...after Caylee had been allegedly kidnapped by ZFG for weeks...ask yourself why Casey would GUSH about ZFG vs. just answering the question.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

We are only seeing what we've been given to see, which I'm sure is only a small portion of the evidence that the prosecution has.

SNIP

Assumption mixed with speculation, strong brew.

 

[Kat]

If the defense team will be working the ZFG-story I thought I'd bring this over from the Sticky Forum where ButWhatIf posted Iassen's IM's. IMHO, this won't help the ZFG-did-it alibi any...

BJB, who was she IMing with Iassen? Good catch.

 

[Wudge]

Interesting arguments. Remember that they brought charges of murder against Casey after they presented the case to a grand jury. This was before they even found a body. I would guess they have even more evidence now. I do not understand how people can claim accident or speculation if a grand jury who has seen the evidence and heard the testimony felt there was enough to call it murder.

If prosecutors have more evidence now versus what they presented to the Grand, why did they drop the death penalty?

 

[ecs5298]

Assumption mixed with speculation, strong brew.

Yes it is. That's why we're all here discussing this instead of vacuuming the house like we should.

 

[Wudge]

Yes it is. That's why we're all here discussing this instead of vacuuming the house like we should.

(snicker)

God bless you for your honesty.

 

[TexasLil]

If the defense team will be working the ZFG-story I thought I'd bring this over from the Sticky Forum where ButWhatIf posted Iassen's IM's. IMHO, this won't help the ZFG-did-it alibi any...

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, Whatif. I'd read them in pdf amongst other material, but, this really brings it into focus.

Now I'm seeing in context for the first time the very text that should ABSOLUTELY sink the ZFG-kidnapped Caylee alibi...(as if it really needed more help sinking).

SUNDAY 13TH JULY

ID So what do you do when you work? with the kid that is
KC: I have a nanny. i love her
ID Nice. how much do they charge?
KC: We've been friends for over 6 years. definitely someone i trust. ​

...ok...so, as a juror go waaaaaaaaaay out on a limb and say you buy the whole ZFG-kidnapping story (I know, I know)....now...if while out there on that limb you tell yourself Casey was secretly searching for Caylee & ZFG but worried about telling anyone for fear of Caylee being harmed, etc. So...still out there on that limb...you convinced yourself Casey's not telling anyone what's gone terribly wrong....now you read the text highlighted above that Casey wrote on 7/13...after Caylee had been allegedly kidnapped by ZFG for weeks...ask yourself why Casey would GUSH about ZFG vs. just answering the question.

Bond,

Excellent reminder as we are hearing more and more that Baez will attempt to stick with the nanny story.

Lil

 

[Sammi99]

There may not be enough evidence for a Murder 1 conviction but certainly Casey is culpable to some degree for the death of her daughter. What I don't understand is why her attorney has not attempted to plea down to lesser charges. Isn't he doing her a disservice by taking this all or nothing approach?

 

[sarah7855]

I agree.
(Unless the prosecution has a bunch of evidence in store that we don't know about yet.)
(I wouldn't say educated jurors necessarily, but logical jurors.) For more logical jurors, I would think so much doubt would remain at this point, since KC was living with so many people, had Caylee around so many people, at the various apartments and other places, and no forensics done, no cadaver dogs or luminol or anything else done at any of these apartments where they'd been staying, in any of these people's cars, etc. (Of course these paramours, many roommates, and friends are all presumed innocent, but too much has not been ruled out.)
Also, (so far) it hasn't been shown that she was the only person with access to either the home computer or the car.
The location and style of the disposal of the body also suggests a different perpetrator. If KC were the perp, it seems unlikely that she would leave the body right there in their own neighborhood, so near the street, and most of all, with duct tape still around the mouth, forever ending any chance of claiming it was an accident. MOO.

Bolded by me. That's the kicker.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many people think that the TINY LITTLE BITS of released information that we've seen are all that LE has. Really? So, LE is going to release every bit of evidence that it has in an ongoing criminal investigation?? Not a chance. The reports we've seen are preliminary. The interviews we've seen are the ones that the prosecution does not necessarily need to prove its case.

I agree that AT THIS POINT, yes, it would be difficult to convict her on what we've seen, of course it would be-we haven't even covered the tip of the iceburg in terms of the evidence that is involved in this case. We aren't privy to it yet. Come on, March!! :woohoo:

Remember, GJ took 30 mins. And that was before they found the body.

 

[sarah7855]

If the defense team will be working the ZFG-story I thought I'd bring this over from the Sticky Forum where ButWhatIf posted Iassen's IM's. IMHO, this won't help the ZFG-did-it alibi any...

Oh, wow. It's amazing when the simplest of things are pointed out and you just slap your head in freaking disgust. :crazy: Thanks, Bond and ButWhatIf, that was great!

 

[sarah7855]

Interesting arguments. Remember that they brought charges of murder against Casey after they presented the case to a grand jury. This was before they even found a body. I would guess they have even more evidence now. I do not understand how people can claim accident or speculation if a grand jury who has seen the evidence and heard the testimony felt there was enough to call it murder.

Hehe, I knew I should've read the whole darn thread first before posting :crazy: ITA, and just posted nearly the same thing a post or two ago

 

[Marina2]

A 1% error rate may sound low. It is not.

Just so you understand, a 1% error rate against our annual population of three million imprisoned people means that, at any point in time, there are 30,000 people who should not be imprisoned.

Wrongful convictions destroy lives. And wrongful convictions have a multiplier effect, because, at a minimum, the lives of Mothers, Fathers, spouses, sons, daughters, brothers, Grandmothers and Grandfathers will be greatly damaged, if not destroyed, as well.

Respectfully Wudge, prison population and what constitutes 1% of the prison population has nothing to do with the question "What is reasonable doubt?" 95% of those serving time for felony convictions never saw a jury trial; they took a plea. This has to do with jury trials not the other 95% of those serving time.
The question is, "What is the burden of proof upon the state in order to convict someone of a crime?" The state has to prove the accused's guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt". You define that as less than 1% margin of error. By your reasoning, a jury should not convict if a prosecutor has proven his case 99%. He has to go beyond that and prove his case 99.1% or greater before a jury can convict. To me, this margin of error you cite borders on absolute certainty and it's just not true that the burden of proof is near an absolute certainty. To demand that jurors hold the state to this standard would seriously jeopardize the safety of the public. Can you imagine how many OJs would be running around the country?

 

[Wudge]

Respectfully Wudge, prison population and what constitutes 1% of the prison population has nothing to do with the question "What is reasonable doubt?" 95% of those serving time for felony convictions never saw a jury trial; they took a plea. This has to do with jury trials not the other 95% of those serving time.
The question is, "What is the burden of proof upon the state in order to convict someone of a crime?" The state has to prove the accused's guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt". You define that as less than 1% margin of error. By your reasoning, a jury should not convict if a prosecutor has proven his case 99%. He has to go beyond that and prove his case 99.1% or greater before a jury can convict. To me, this margin of error you cite borders on absolute certainty and it's just not true that the burden of proof is near an absolute certainty. To demand that jurors hold the state to this standard would seriously jeopardize the safety of the public. Can you imagine how many OJs would be running around the country?

Innocent people take pleas everyday in every state in this country.

I did not define reasonable doubt as a 1% error rate. I offered up, as a stalking horse, an error rate that is opposed to a level of certainty.

If you go back and read the template definition that the fifty states worked off of in their their review of what "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" represents, you will find it starts with: "The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime."

So proof beyond a reasonable doubt is equated to a level of certainty. Since it is not absolute certainty, errors will be made (wrongful convictions).

As for my position on the reliability of evidence required to support a conviction, my holding is that the level of certainty should exceed 99%.

HTH

 

[Hot Dogs]

Bond,

Excellent reminder as we are hearing more and more that Baez will attempt to stick with the nanny story.

Lil

That seems to be the defense (or story) for the other charges of false official statements and obstructing criminal investigation. Those charges are for "never had a nanny" and "wasn't working at Universal" etc.

But the premeditated murder charge may not require a "nanny" defense as much as "you can't prove the death was a premeditated murder as opposed to other homicide" defense.

Could Casey actually be found guilty of false statements & obstruction but aquitted of premeditated murder?

 

[MissDiva]

The opportunity for the cause of death to be "accidental" ended within 5 minutes of her death when her mother failed to call 911. It was further emphasized as murder when her mother failed to call authorities PERIOD. Never. She never reported her missing. Cindy did. She just spent the better part of a month living the life of Riley, sans Caylee.

Not if she IS a Sociopath, like most here claim. If she is, then she isn't going to have the normal reaction to an accidental death that most would have. Either she is a Sociopath or she isn't. People can't have it both ways.

I'm on board with Chilly Willy, except I wonder if the duct tape was placed over Caylee's mouth afterward to either keep fluids from escaping or to make it look like a kidnapping, because Casey was freaked out and didn't know what else to do.

I don't know exactly what happened. No one here does. But while I do believe Casey is the cause of death, I'm not convinced it was premeditated.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

But the premeditated murder charge may not require a "nanny" defense as much as "you can't prove the death was a premeditated murder as opposed to other homicide" defense.

Could Casey actually be found guilty of false statements & obstruction but aquitted of premeditated murder?

If so charged: Yes.

 

[Wudge]

Not if she IS a Sociopath, like most here claim. If she is, then she isn't going to have the normal reaction to an accidental death that most would have. Either she is a Sociopath or she isn't. People can't have it both ways.

I'm on board with Chilly Willy, except I wonder if the duct tape was placed over Caylee's mouth afterward to either keep fluids from escaping or to make it look like a kidnapping, because Casey was freaked out and didn't know what else to do.

I don't know exactly what happened. No one here does.

SNIP

I'm not convinced it was premeditated.

Astute thoughts and position.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Is she still charged with false statements & obstruction or were those dropped?

 

[Capri]

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, Whatif. I'd read them in pdf amongst other material, but, this really brings it into focus.

Now I'm seeing in context for the first time the very text that should ABSOLUTELY sink the ZFG-kidnapped Caylee alibi...(as if it really needed more help sinking).

SUNDAY 13TH JULY

ID So what do you do when you work? with the kid that is
KC: I have a nanny. i love her
ID Nice. how much do they charge?
KC: We've been friends for over 6 years. definitely someone i trust. ​

Hmmm, Note the date of IM's with Iassen.
Jose might want to rethink that defense strategy, if KC's sticking to her 31 days story.

 

[Wudge]

Is she still charged with false statements & obstruction or were those dropped?

As best I know, prosecutors have dropped the death penalty, nothing more.