Kidnaping Gone Bad

[Barbara]

Hard drives can be checked.....typing traced back to paper and printer. There could have been a computer generated note---the length of the note would be much less on a typed page....it could have been copied onto the notepad because of opportunity. The cross-offs in the printed note could have been the result of copying, and losing his place.

They were smart enough to avoid that, yet left a handwritten novel 3 pages long.

That makes sense to you?

 

[Barbara]

I don't think they necessarily had to be pedophiles. Movie buffs, yes---the note was a copycat of several extortion movies---and then there's the marked up entreprenaur article which is from "Rocochet." I can see someone having a great deal of fun composing it, and anticipating at some point it would be known, and people would puzzle over it. They brought in a burglary/kidnapping kit----but didn't think it through, which is why they botched it.

A buglary/kidnapping KIT????

And no burglary and no kidnapping.

People who are planning a kidnapping/burglary who ARENT pedophiles don't sexually abuse the victim.

Nobody had "fun" that night.

I'm starting to feel like Desi Arnaz. I am getting so frustrated, I might start breaking into Yiddish, but nobody would understand me

(except for Sabrina I think)

Meshugenuhs!!!!!

 

[Britt]

If the train room door was blocked, then it was done on the way out---a temporary barricade, just in case someone came charging down the stairs.

There is no "if" about it. From the June 24, 1998, questioning of John Ramsey by Lou Smit, JonBenet The Police Files, pages 313-314:

Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room in the basement. To get to the broken window in the cellar, someone has to go through that door. Ramsey found the chair blocking the entranceway during his first search of the basement, moved it and then moved it back, he said. The information cast some doubt on the intruder theory.

SMIT: So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?

RAMSEY: Correct.

SMIT: In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?

RAMSEY: Uh huh.

SMIT: How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?

RAMSEY: I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room.

SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?

RAMSEY: Correct... I had to move the chair.

SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as....

RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.

So, Maikai, how would that work as a barricade? The train room was separate from the room where JB was found -- different entranceway -- and was blocked from the outside, the hallway side, not the inside where it might be used as a barricade while the intruders exited through the window.

What was the alleged intruders' purpose in blocking the train room door - the room with the broken window? Why would they enter the house through that broken window, go through the door into the hallway, then block it with a chair?

 

[Britt]

I don't think they necessarily had to be pedophiles.

Huh? They're not pedophiles, yet they sexually assaulted a six-year-old... WHY? Because they were pissed off? As if... killing her wasn't enough to satisfy their rage? And then they were considerate enough to redress her? Again, WHY?

Maybe it would help if you could cite some other cases where a non-pedophile spontaneously decided to sexually attack a child for some non-pedophilic reason ??

 

[Britt]

Movie buffs, yes---the note was a copycat of several extortion movies---

And how does this eliminate a Ramsey as the writer?

 

[Britt]

I don't think they knew printing--even disguised might be able to be traced back, if they got on the radar screen.

Again... how does this eliminate a Ramsey as the writer? In fact, this logic would explain why a Ramsey would risk hand-writing the note.

 

[tipper]

I think it may well have been printed with the non-dominant hand. I tried that once and was amazed at how similar my writing became. The little squiggles in what should have been straight lines were everwhere just like the note. If someone came to the house, knowing the Ramseys were going to be at a party for a few hours, they would have plenty of time to familiarize themself with the house layout and write the note.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Yes, it's a kidnapping gone bad. Now go away.

 

[Shylock]

If someone came to the house, knowing the Ramseys were going to be at a party for a few hours, they would have plenty of time to familiarize themself with the house layout and write the note.

Oh, so now the world's greatest intruder KNEW the Ramseys were at a party huh? And just HOW did he know that?

And while you're at it, also explain to us how he also knew the Ramseys weren't going to stop at the airport on the way home from the party and pickup 6 other family members to bring home with them that night. Now wouldn't THAT have been a shock to Mr. Intruder!

Oh, and how did he know the Ramseys wouldn't turn on the alarm system when they got home and activate a bunch of motion detectors?

That intruder had one hellOfa crystal ball, didn't he!

 

[tipper]

No, he just needed to know someone who had knowledge of their plans and perhaps a key that could be copied. I've always been intrigued that LHP's husband asked if she was strangled. Did he get a call very early that morning saying plans had gone awry?

 

[Barbara]

No, he just needed to know someone who had knowledge of their plans and perhaps a key that could be copied. I've always been intrigued that LHP's husband asked if she was strangled. Did he get a call very early that morning saying plans had gone awry?

...and knowledge of their bedtime routines,

...and knowledge that the dog wasn't there

...and knowledge of the layout of the house

...and knowledge of their sleep habits, sexual routines

Oh hell, the Ramseys, when going out to the Whites, and then going around delivering gifts and visiting, didn't even know full well, their own plans and time frames for that night, yet the "intruder" had it down to a science?

Again, what motive would LHP's husband have for this. They were expecting to pick up a couple of thousand dollar check from Patsy. Why would he do that before getting it? He was a big man by all accounts and a drunkard. Does he fit the profile of a stealth, climb through the basement window, do all those things that this crime entailed, while drunk and overweight, without a sound, and without a trace??

You can't really believe that is a viable scenario can you?

 

[Angie]

and those stupid kidnappers woke someone up that fateful night, to see if he/she could write them a long and lengthy educated ransom note.

 

[tezi]

Yep, let's throw Mervin Pugh back under the bus again, like that family hasn't suffered enough because they had the misfortune of knowing the Ramsey's. Gee, don't forget Mervin was a *advertiser censored* star involved in child *advertiser censored* too....Yeah, right....

What phone call saying plans had gone awry??? Or would that phone call be the one JR made to the pilot saying plans had changed????

 

[tipper]

...and knowledge of their bedtime routines,

...and knowledge that the dog wasn't there

...and knowledge of the layout of the house

...and knowledge of their sleep habits, sexual routines

Oh hell, the Ramseys, when going out to the Whites, and then going around delivering gifts and visiting, didn't even know full well, their own plans and time frames for that night, yet the "intruder" had it down to a science?

Again, what motive would LHP's husband have for this. They were expecting to pick up a couple of thousand dollar check from Patsy. Why would he do that before getting it? He was a big man by all accounts and a drunkard. Does he fit the profile of a stealth, climb through the basement window, do all those things that this crime entailed, while drunk and overweight, without a sound, and without a trace??

You can't really believe that is a viable scenario can you?

It's one scenario I periodically consider. But it's not the only one I consider.

1. I'm not saying Merv did this himself. I think he could have provided the information and key needed to someone else. Why take a $2,000 loan when you can have a quick $59,000 payday. Unfortunately, something went wrong and JonBenet died.

2. Merv would know the dog spent most of it's time at the Barnhills.

3. The layout of the house could be explored while the Ramseys were at the White's. Barnhill saw a male approaching the house around the time the Ramseys left for the Whites. That suggests someone was watchiing and waiting for them to leave. Knowing when they would return wasn't vital. If he knew they were going to a dinner then he knew he had at least a couple hours before needing to lay low.

4. He could assume that they sleep at night. What other habit does he need to know? Wait 'til the house is quiet, wait a little more and assume they are asleep. Sexual habits? He could probably safely conclude that Patsy and John didn't usually have a go at it on the dining room table, particularly the night before a trip. What else would he need to know?

People break into homes all the time while the owners sleep. There is always some risk that the owner will get up, or be doing something unexpected. But still, people continue to break into homes.

I think it's possible this was a person who felt the world owes him, heard about John Ramsey's bonus from Merv, decided it wasn't fair that the Ramseys of the world get all the breaks, also felt asking for the bonus amount wasn't like "real" stealing since it was, after all, a bonus, and hatched this plan. Unfortunately something went terribly wrong and JonBenet was killed.

Although I do not think Mervin personally did this, as I said, I find it very curious he asked about her being strangled. Why would he want to know at all, let alone ask about a method of killing that is not particularly common for children? While I don't think Mervin was the hands-on person I would remind you that Westerfield, also a large man, managed, while drunk, to enter and leave the van Dam house without knowing anything about the habits, pets and schedules of the people there and didn't leave any known traces of himself. Bundy was also usually drunk when he killed. How many houses did he enter without knowing the habits of the residents?

My thoughts about what happened at the end of this scenario are less clear than the beginning. Perhaps she screamed and he panicked and killed her in frustration at having failed again. Perhaps he thought she might recognize him. Perhaps she didn't scream and the head blow was only supposed to knock her out but he hit her too hard. Perhaps the garrotte was a control device and she screamed and he hit her in the head, thought he might have killed her, and strangled her just to be sure she couldn't recover. Perhaps the sexual assault was merely an attempt to head the police off into the world of pedophiles or perhaps it was anger in general, directed at JonBenet.

If any one theory fit perfectly with no unanswered questions we wouldn't be here. But I would rather see no one in jail for this crime than 25 years from now see another name go on the exonerated list of Sheck's Innocence Project.

 

[Barbara]

4. He could assume that they sleep at night. What other habit does he need to know? Wait 'til the house is quiet, wait a little more and assume they are asleep. Sexual habits? He could probably safely conclude that Patsy and John didn't usually have a go at it on the dining room table, particularly the night before a trip. What else would he need to know?

People break into homes all the time while the owners sleep. There is always some risk that the owner will get up, or be doing something unexpected. But still, people continue to break into homes.

Yes, but in this case, this perp reportedly was waiting in the house for them and in this case, the perp knew that they had JUST gone to "bed" an hour or so before, so also had to know that after such a short time, with two children on Christmas day, and two parents alone upstairs that everyone was "asleep".

The extreme risk, after otherwise being so careful does not make sense.

 

[Nehemiah]

Thanks, Maikai, for sharing your thoughts. I think anything is possible. So if this were a kidnapping gone bad, why did the Ramseys behave the way they did after the murder? I can't reconcile that one.

IMO

 

[Seeker]

Thanks, Maikai, for sharing your thoughts. I think anything is possible. So if this were a kidnapping gone bad, why did the Ramseys behave the way they did after the murder? I can't reconcile that one.

IMO

Don't forget disregarding absolutely EVERYTHING the note writer said NOT TO DO!!!

Do not call the police. You are under surveillance. If we see you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
Not only did they call the police and NOT tell them to be extremely low key and cautious, they called all of their friends over as well to create even more chaos.
Gee, and here the RST has tried to lead us to believe that JR is so intelligent...one of the members even wants him to run for president? YIKES!!

Last sentence editted

 

[vicktor]

Britt: What was the alleged intruder's purpose in blocking the train room door...?

Vicktor: He was trying to make his point of entrance less obvious. If he had moved the suitcase away from the wall, it would have made it more difficult to surmise where he got in. Most likely case is that he carried the RN upstairs after the crime was finished. If he had left it there earlier, anyone coming downstairs would have been alerted and might have compromized the crime in progress. He most likely had seen the alarm panel after the Ramseys retired, if not also before and probably knew it was off. Having put the chair in place and left the note, he probably left through the butler's door. It was seen to be hanging open on the 26th. Although who knows for certain, how many people living in that type of house would tend to leave outside doors hanging open, in winter?

 

[vicktor]

Yep, let's throw Mervin Pugh back under the bus again, like that family hasn't suffered enough because they had the misfortune of knowing the Ramsey's. Gee, don't forget Mervin was a *advertiser censored* star involved in child *advertiser censored* too....Yeah, right....

Now that you mention it, wasn't LHP writing a tell all book, some 6+ years after the fact, the first chapter of which appeared a few months ago. Dealt with Patsy's confessions and sexual adventures. Although the Pughs don't deserve any (more) bad fortune, there is a balance.

 

[Britt]

Britt: What was the alleged intruder's purpose in blocking the train room door...?

Vicktor: He was trying to make his point of entrance less obvious.

Why? What difference would that make once he'd kidnapped his victim and left the ransom note? It's not like they wouldn't notice there'd been an intruder. And why bother with a chair? Why not just shut the door? If he were trapped in the basement by an awakened Ramsey, how would that chair blocking that door have helped him in the least? And wouldn't an out-of-place chair in itself draw attention?

Most likely case is that he carried the RN upstairs after the crime was finished.

How'd he do that when he wrote the note on Patsy's pad in the home? Remember, the pad matching the ransom note pages, and even including a practice note, was found right there in the kitchen. Do you mean, he wrote the note in the kitchen, then took it downstairs, then brought it back up to leave it?

Having put the chair in place and left the note, he probably left through the butler's door.

But what does the chair blocking the train room door have to do with it? What did that accomplish?