Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

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DNA Solves

Who do you believe killed JonBenet?

  • Patsy

    Votes: 168 25.0%
  • John

    Votes: 44 6.6%
  • Burke

    Votes: 107 15.9%
  • an unknown intruder

    Votes: 86 12.8%
  • BR (head bash), then JR

    Votes: 4 0.6%
  • BR (head bash); then JR & PR (strangled/coverup)

    Votes: 113 16.8%
  • Knowing all I know, still on the fence.

    Votes: 55 8.2%
  • John, with an 'inside' accomplice

    Votes: 11 1.6%
  • I think John and Patsy caught him and he made her cover up

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • I still have no idea

    Votes: 57 8.5%
  • patsy and john helped cover it up

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • Total voters
    671
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Not open for further replies.
Well...of course it's just my opinion...but knowing a victim of child abuse and incest and reading lots on the subject, as well (I can't recommend Marilyn Van Derbur's book Miss America By Day enough to help understand the dynamics involved in families of incest), I find the autopsy results support the theory that someone was sexually abusing the child for some period of time before that night and that was what most likely led to the strain and tension which resulted in the devastating head blow.

Once that burst of anger set into motion the inevitable death of the child, their next problem was what was going to happen once the sexual abuse was uncovered? They certainly knew it would be discovered: at a hospital, if they took her to the ER, or at autopsy, if she didn't survive.

We've discussed quite a bit what might have happened when her skull cracked almost in half. One thing I feel did happen is that whoever struck the blow heard that crack, loud and clear. It must have been terrifying.

Whether other family members were present and heard it, as well, we don't know.

The next thing that is debated, without any definitive answer that I've seen, is how that head injury would have physically manifested itself in the body of JonBenet. Head injuries involving the brain are unpredictable and individual because the brain is still quite a mystery as far as function goes.

Some possibilities are seizures, thrashing about, or even simply a complete loss of consciousness quickly resulting in dilated pupils and lack of any response to any stimuli.

Most of you here are familiar with all of this and more, and I'm sure you have some links to more in depth discussion by those more qualified than I to explain this.

Whatever happened after that head blow, the Ramseys then had major problems that just went into the stratosphere of tragedy, IMO.

However the Ramseys reached this point--and we all know there are many viable theories about that--the strangulation by ligature, staging, and cover-up that followed were a result of an initial desire to hide that sexual abuse of a six year old.

For anyone who doesn't understand how taboo incest is in this country, rest assured of one thing: Patsy Ramsey, from W. Virginia--where incest was historically such a problem that a t-shirt marketed by Abercrombe & Fitch that says "It's all relative in West Virginia" brought the governor of the state out against it: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/us/t-shirt-slight-has-west-virginia-in-arms.html. [Edited to change verb tense--because upon googling, I found such t-shirts are still sold and easily found now.]

It is my theory that this was the deep secret that ruined that family and caused the death of JonBenet. In 2013, when we talk about everything under the Sun, and on TV, it may not be seen as the scandal of epic proportions it used to be. But Patsy, born in 1956, was from a time when nobody talked about it and many weren't even aware of it. It was the darkest of secrets and what families did to keep it often devastated the victim--who often was blamed, not the perp. Sad, but true.

There is convincing physical and circumstantial evidence of prior sexual abuse, which the Ramseys emphatically denied. Also suspicious, once told by Det. Haney in 1998 that it was absolutely, scientifically proven, they proceeded to completely ignore this compelling evidence. Consider this: IF they truly wanted to find the killer of their child, they'd have immediately began looking for that abuser among them who was not only with JonBenet before that night, but had the ability to repeatedly sexually molest her without their knowledge. That was in fact the biggest clue to narrow the field of suspects they had, if they were innocent as they claimed.

All they did was deny and ignore that evidence.

So that's what I think about their motive. But I'm open to other reasonable theories, as we will probably never be able to fully understand the demented dynamics at work that night.

JMO
 
If Patsy or John killed JonBenet, why would they? I just don't see a clear motive here.
I don't know that there is a motive. I have always leaned toward the Steve Thomas theory, or a variation of it anyway, that the actual head injury may have been the result of rage. In other words, not a planned murder. Legally, of course it cannot be considered an "accident" but the the parent that inflicted the head injury would probably believe it to have been.

Plenty of children die as a result of their parents rage, unfortunately. After the head wound the parent responsible, I lean toward PDI but am not married to to that particular piece, may have either truly believed Jonbenet was dead, or just beleived that the injury was too severe to ever fully recover from. Or just decided to cover herself from the shame of inflicitng the injury.I think the rest was staging.

I don't claim to know every particular of what happened that night. <modsnip>
 
Most likely it was accidental.
To me, I don't see a clear motive an intruder would have. jmo

Exactly. And what possible motive would an intruder have to write a phony ransom note?

That particular piece of the puzzle is the absolute undoing of the IDI theory, IMO. Not because Patsy likely wrote it either. Simply because someone who entered the home to molest and/or kill Jonbenet has absolutely no reason to write a phony ransom note of any length.

A kidnapper would not have taken her to the basement. Why would they take the risk of molesting in the house her parents are "asleep" in if you are going to kidnap her anyway? Why not remove her from the house and then molest her?

The whole thing just defies logic. Only the "obvious" subjects had any reason to try to stage the scene. The obvious subjects are obviously going to be the other people known to be in the home when she died.
 
Well...of course it's just my opinion...but knowing a victim of child abuse and incest and reading lots on the subject, as well (I can't recommend Marilyn Van Derbur's book Miss America By Day enough to help understand the dynamics involved in families of incest), I find the autopsy results support the theory that someone was sexually abusing the child for some period of time before that night and that was what most likely led to the strain and tension which resulted in the devastating head blow.

Once that burst of anger set into motion the inevitable death of the child, their next problem was what was going to happen once the sexual abuse was uncovered? They certainly knew it would be discovered: at a hospital, if they took her to the ER, or at autopsy, if she didn't survive.

We've discussed quite a bit what might have happened when her skull cracked almost in half. One thing I feel did happen is that whoever struck the blow heard that crack, loud and clear. It must have been terrifying.

Whether other family members were present and heard it, as well, we don't know.

The next thing that is debated, without any definitive answer that I've seen, is how that head injury would have physically manifested itself in the body of JonBenet. Head injuries involving the brain are unpredictable and individual because the brain is still quite a mystery as far as function goes.

Some possibilities are seizures, thrashing about, or even simply a complete loss of consciousness quickly resulting in dilated pupils and lack of any response to any stimuli.

Most of you here are familiar with all of this and more, and I'm sure you have some links to more in depth discussion by those more qualified than I to explain this.

Whatever happened after that head blow, the Ramseys then had major problems that just went into the stratosphere of tragedy, IMO.

However the Ramseys reached this point--and we all know there are many viable theories about that--the strangulation by ligature, staging, and cover-up that followed were a result of an initial desire to hide that sexual abuse of a six year old.

For anyone who doesn't understand how taboo incest is in this country, rest assured of one thing: Patsy Ramsey, from W. Virginia--where incest was historically such a problem that a t-shirt marketed by Abercrombe & Fitch that says "It's all relative in West Virginia" brought the governor of the state out against it: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/us/t-shirt-slight-has-west-virginia-in-arms.html. [Edited to change verb tense--because upon googling, I found such t-shirts are still sold and easily found now.]

It is my theory that this was the deep secret that ruined that family and caused the death of JonBenet. In 2013, when we talk about everything under the Sun, and on TV, it may not be seen as the scandal of epic proportions it used to be. But Patsy, born in 1956, was from a time when nobody talked about it and many weren't even aware of it. It was the darkest of secrets and what families did to keep it often devastated the victim--who often was blamed, not the perp. Sad, but true.

There is convincing physical and circumstantial evidence of prior sexual abuse, which the Ramseys emphatically denied. Also suspicious, once told by Det. Haney in 1998 that it was absolutely, scientifically proven, they proceeded to completely ignore this compelling evidence. Consider this: IF they truly wanted to find the killer of their child, they'd have immediately began looking for that abuser among them who was not only with JonBenet before that night, but had the ability to repeatedly sexually molest her without their knowledge. That was in fact the biggest clue to narrow the field of suspects they had, if they were innocent as they claimed.

All they did was deny and ignore that evidence.

So that's what I think about their motive. But I'm open to other reasonable theories, as we will probably never be able to fully understand the demented dynamics at work that night.

JMO

koldkase, thanks isn't enough for this wonderful, well thought out post!!!!
 
Well...of course it's just my opinion...but knowing a victim of child abuse and incest and reading lots on the subject, as well (I can't recommend Marilyn Van Derbur's book Miss America By Day enough to help understand the dynamics involved in families of incest), I find the autopsy results support the theory that someone was sexually abusing the child for some period of time before that night and that was what most likely led to the strain and tension which resulted in the devastating head blow.

Once that burst of anger set into motion the inevitable death of the child, their next problem was what was going to happen once the sexual abuse was uncovered? They certainly knew it would be discovered: at a hospital, if they took her to the ER, or at autopsy, if she didn't survive.

We've discussed quite a bit what might have happened when her skull cracked almost in half. One thing I feel did happen is that whoever struck the blow heard that crack, loud and clear. It must have been terrifying.

Whether other family members were present and heard it, as well, we don't know.

The next thing that is debated, without any definitive answer that I've seen, is how that head injury would have physically manifested itself in the body of JonBenet. Head injuries involving the brain are unpredictable and individual because the brain is still quite a mystery as far as function goes.

Some possibilities are seizures, thrashing about, or even simply a complete loss of consciousness quickly resulting in dilated pupils and lack of any response to any stimuli.

Most of you here are familiar with all of this and more, and I'm sure you have some links to more in depth discussion by those more qualified than I to explain this.

Whatever happened after that head blow, the Ramseys then had major problems that just went into the stratosphere of tragedy, IMO.

However the Ramseys reached this point--and we all know there are many viable theories about that--the strangulation by ligature, staging, and cover-up that followed were a result of an initial desire to hide that sexual abuse of a six year old.

For anyone who doesn't understand how taboo incest is in this country, rest assured of one thing: Patsy Ramsey, from W. Virginia--where incest was historically such a problem that a t-shirt marketed by Abercrombe & Fitch that says "It's all relative in West Virginia" brought the governor of the state out against it: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/us/t-shirt-slight-has-west-virginia-in-arms.html. [Edited to change verb tense--because upon googling, I found such t-shirts are still sold and easily found now.]

It is my theory that this was the deep secret that ruined that family and caused the death of JonBenet. In 2013, when we talk about everything under the Sun, and on TV, it may not be seen as the scandal of epic proportions it used to be. But Patsy, born in 1956, was from a time when nobody talked about it and many weren't even aware of it. It was the darkest of secrets and what families did to keep it often devastated the victim--who often was blamed, not the perp. Sad, but true.

There is convincing physical and circumstantial evidence of prior sexual abuse, which the Ramseys emphatically denied. Also suspicious, once told by Det. Haney in 1998 that it was absolutely, scientifically proven, they proceeded to completely ignore this compelling evidence. Consider this: IF they truly wanted to find the killer of their child, they'd have immediately began looking for that abuser among them who was not only with JonBenet before that night, but had the ability to repeatedly sexually molest her without their knowledge. That was in fact the biggest clue to narrow the field of suspects they had, if they were innocent as they claimed.

All they did was deny and ignore that evidence.

So that's what I think about their motive. But I'm open to other reasonable theories, as we will probably never be able to fully understand the demented dynamics at work that night.

JMO

ITA, KK. While I found HS’s book as a specialized supervisor for child protection (and incest) also very interesting, Marilyn Van Derbur’s book is absolutely the primary book for information on this topic.

One of the stats Marilyn brings up is that one estimate concludes (and mind when it comes to statistics, so many things can throw off the results) that sibling incest occurs 5 times as frequently as parental incest. To add to that surprise is that the surveys into this also showed that 32% of those sibling incest victims had been first molested by their father, before their brothers incested them. Another pertinent statistic was that 48% of the sibling perpetrators had observed sexual activity in the home, and frequently the home environment is polluted with *advertiser censored* and inappropriate sexual behavior. (In addition to the tragedy of JB’s death, I can’t help but feel deeply sorrowful for a little girl who was never taught that it’s not ok to call anyone into the bathroom to assist you. I’m sure PR lectured her that the reason for her vaginal infections was poor hygiene habits, so JB was likely thinking she needed assistance.)

Without any firm ideas of who did what, it’s always been my belief that the parents might have gotten JB help, if it had been an accident and there was no evidence of acute or prior sexual assault. Can't stop wondering if either of them had even fleetingly considered getting her help. moo
 
A person manipulating an item like a rope, holding it taunt to cut it, tying knots, pulling knots tight.,, would leave TDNA. There would be a whole lot of friction on an item.....a flashlight, not so much, even breaking the paintbrush handle wouldn't likely leave much... The manipulation of the rope... I think so.

Then why wasn't Lacy crowing about the TDNA on the rope too?

To my mind, that means none was found to crow about. :pullhair:

It is common for NO DNA to be found at a crime scene. None...or only DNA with a valid "excuse" for being there - such as, the crime scene occurred where a person lives.

Some people just aren't excretors, and there's no way to judge that as it apparently can change on a daily basis.

On a personal instinctive note, JR looks like the dry handed type to me...dry lips, dry hands, dry soul. He's not made out of the same stuff as the rest of us.

Psychopaths arguably would often leave LESS DNA, as they won't be sweating while they do their work. They enjoy it and take their time. No panic.


:cow:
 
Then why wasn't Lacy crowing about the TDNA on the rope too?

To my mind, that means none was found to crow about.

It is common for NO DNA to be found at a crime scene. None...or only DNA with a valid "excuse" for being there - such as, the crime scene occurred where a person lives.

:cow:

You would have to ask Lacy that. there was indeed unsourced TDNA found on the rope. I don't know if Ramsey's was as well.
 
I have always believed it was an intruder. They showed a doc once on a boyfriend of one of the maids. Her boyfriend had been in prison for SO and robbery. He saw JB and got the password from the maid telling her he was going to rob them. instead he raped and killed JB.It was also thought that the maid in order to point suspicion away from herself and the boyfriend wrote the note on paper from inside the house. A PI that JR had hired was thought to have investigated the guy and talked to him and believed he was the one who had killed her. JR then hired someone to kill him. He was found with a handgun in his hand and police called it suicide even though he was left handed. and police know it would be very rare for a handgun to remain in the hand of someone who shoots themselves. JMO
 
ITA, KK. While I found HS’s book as a specialized supervisor for child protection (and incest) also very interesting, Marilyn Van Derbur’s book is absolutely the primary book for information on this topic.

One of the stats Marilyn brings up is that one estimate concludes (and mind when it comes to statistics, so many things can throw off the results) that sibling incest occurs 5 times as frequently as parental incest. To add to that surprise is that the surveys into this also showed that 32% of those sibling incest victims had been first molested by their father, before their brothers incested them. Another pertinent statistic was that 48% of the sibling perpetrators had observed sexual activity in the home, and frequently the home environment is polluted with *advertiser censored* and inappropriate sexual behavior. (In addition to the tragedy of JB’s death, I can’t help but feel deeply sorrowful for a little girl who was never taught that it’s not ok to call anyone into the bathroom to assist you. I’m sure PR lectured her that the reason for her vaginal infections was poor hygiene habits, so JB was likely thinking she needed assistance.)

Without any firm ideas of who did what, it’s always been my belief that the parents might have gotten JB help, if it had been an accident and there was no evidence of acute or prior sexual assault. Can't stop wondering if either of them had even fleetingly considered getting her help. moo

The presence of the garrotte says no.

:sick:
 
I have always believed it was an intruder. They showed a doc once on a boyfriend of one of the maids. Her boyfriend had been in prison for SO and robbery. He saw JB and got the password from the maid telling her he was going to rob them. instead he raped and killed JB.It was also thought that the maid in order to point suspicion away from herself and the boyfriend wrote the note on paper from inside the house. A PI that JR had hired was thought to have investigated the guy and talked to him and believed he was the one who had killed her. JR then hired someone to kill him. He was found with a handgun in his hand and police called it suicide even though he was left handed. and police know it would be very rare for a handgun to remain in the hand of someone who shoots themselves. JMO

Do you have a name? Link?
 
I have always believed it was an intruder. They showed a doc once on a boyfriend of one of the maids. Her boyfriend had been in prison for SO and robbery. He saw JB and got the password from the maid telling her he was going to rob them. instead he raped and killed JB.It was also thought that the maid in order to point suspicion away from herself and the boyfriend wrote the note on paper from inside the house. A PI that JR had hired was thought to have investigated the guy and talked to him and believed he was the one who had killed her. JR then hired someone to kill him. He was found with a handgun in his hand and police called it suicide even though he was left handed. and police know it would be very rare for a handgun to remain in the hand of someone who shoots themselves. JMO

It sounds like you're talking about Michael Helgoth. I never heard the theory about John hiring a hitman to kill him.
 
It sounds like you're talking about Michael Helgoth. I never heard the theory about John hiring a hitman to kill him.

I believe that is his name....I didn't remember it so didn't want to post it. I can't remember who did the doc either :banghead: but it always made sense to me


that JR hired someone was assumed in the doc....simply because he was left handed and they found the gun in his right hand
 
[
QUOTE=VeryCleverGirl;9863773]I have always believed it was an intruder. They showed a doc once on a boyfriend of one of the maids
.

I saw a documentary once on Bigfoot. I still don't believe he exists.


Her boyfriend had been in prison for SO and robbery. He saw JB and got the password from the maid telling her he was going to rob them
.

Password? :eek:
 
They had a password on the security locks on the house in Boulder....But If I remember right JR and or PR said they either didn't always work or weren't set all the time

In their book, "Death of Innocence," the Ramseys say that they didn't use the alarm at all. JBR accidentally set it off and they couldn't get it to shut off, so they just didn't use it. I don't have my book handy to cite the page, but it's in there.

JMO
 
I have always believed it was an intruder. They showed a doc once on a boyfriend of one of the maids.

It sounds like you're talking about Michael Helgoth.

I believe that is his name....I didn't remember it so didn't want to post it. I can't remember who did the doc either :banghead: but it always made sense to me

that JR hired someone was assumed in the doc....simply because he was left handed and they found the gun in his right hand

Michael Helgoth's DNA DOESN"T MATCH. John Gigax contacted the Boulder DA's office when he discovered Michael Tracey was targeting him, he provided documentation that he wasn't in Boulder on December 25, 1996.

link also includes two docs on the subject. maybe one was the one you saw?

the 2004 CBS doc contains errors: someone stating the DNA under JB's fingernails is the killer's, but we know now it was all deemed to be contaminated due to unsterile clippers :facepalm:

http://www.acandyrose.com/michaeltracy
 
In their book, "Death of Innocence," the Ramseys say that they didn't use the alarm at all. JBR accidentally set it off and they couldn't get it to shut off, so they just didn't use it. I don't have my book handy to cite the page, but it's in there.

JMO

Sometime after JonBenets murder IIRC the Ramsey's had a break in... and hadn't set the alarm. Odd, very odd.

You'd think they would be hyper-vigilant... After some intruder broke into their previous home & murdered their daughter in it. But not the Ramsey's!
 
Sometime after JonBenets murder IIRC the Ramsey's had a break in... and hadn't set the alarm. Odd, very odd.

You'd think they would be hyper-vigilant... After some intruder broke into their previous home & murdered their daughter in it. But not the Ramsey's!

BBM: Ah, yes. The nice "Gentleman Burglar" (of Atlanta) that tied John up in the john and stole some antique guns...And John beat feet to the PD there in Atlanta and cooperated fully. Funny, he could go cooperate immediately when he was "burglarized," but when his daughter is found dead in his basement, he takes him and Patsy four months to undergo questioning.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

JMO
 
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