Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Sure and with the door snibbed JonBenet would never get in anyway, Burke might though.

I get the impression Kolar is indirectly suggesting that JonBenet could have had any of the partially opened gifts in her bedroom since they had already been opened earlier that day?


.

I kind of, half assumed the gifts were opened because PR was looking for the underwear.

The oversize Bloomies underwear that she had bought for some older child.

The underwear that became part of the staging.

The real question to me is, Why The Oversize Underwear? but I guess that's something we will never know...unless someone talks that is.

Trawling way back through my memory here, didn't PR admit to tearing the gifts while looking for something, or said she may have earlier that day?

:twocents:

Here it is, from PR's interview June 1998

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.

 

[LinasK]

I kind of, half assumed the gifts were opened because PR was looking for the underwear.

The oversize Bloomies underwear that she had bought for some older child.

The underwear that became part of the staging.

The real question to me is, Why The Oversize Underwear? but I guess that's something we will never know...unless someone talks that is.

Trawling way back through my memory here, didn't PR admit to tearing the gifts while looking for something, or said she may have earlier that day?

:twocents:

Some ideas: They cared about her enough to want her buried in clean underwear, to cover up the vaginal penetration, they were handy (in the house), JB really wanted the days of the week underwear.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Some ideas: They cared about her enough to want her buried in clean underwear, to cover up the vaginal penetration, they were handy (in the house), JB really wanted the days of the week underwear.

Oh sure, all of those things.

I believe that PR had the underwear stored in the cellar and put them on her daughter for the reasons you mentioned above, or others. Who knows really what was going on in her head.

Maybe shame at some level.

She knew she'd got the underwear wrapped up and she wanted to cover JB. Same reason for the blanket. Shame and a too-little too-late attempt to care for her dead daughter.

I don't think the underwear nor the pineapple are really important to the crime, if you know what I mean - just more proof that the Ramseys staged and lied.

:twocents:

 

[UKGuy]

I kind of, half assumed the gifts were opened because PR was looking for the underwear.

The oversize Bloomies underwear that she had bought for some older child.

The underwear that became part of the staging.

The real question to me is, Why The Oversize Underwear? but I guess that's something we will never know...unless someone talks that is.

Trawling way back through my memory here, didn't PR admit to tearing the gifts while looking for something, or said she may have earlier that day?

:twocents:

Here it is, from PR's interview June 1998

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.

SapphireSteel,
But why would Patsy need to unwrap gifts she had recently wrapped, were there no name tags on the gifts, who wraps gifts with no name tags?

Sounds to me as if Patsy is offering an alibi for the partially opened gifts just as she did with the size-12's?

Anyway why is Kolar saying they were opened earlier that day, so who is correct Patsy or Kolar?

Also: Patsy would never have put those size-12's on JonBenet, they are a give away!

The real question to me is, Why The Oversize Underwear?

Someone other than Patsy thought the size-12's would do for whatever reason.

Probably a day of the week issue.


And according to Patsy not something JonBenet cared too much about.


I reckon either John or Burke Ramsey placed the size-12's on JonBenet?


.
.

 

[cynic]

I kind of, half assumed the gifts were opened because PR was looking for the underwear.

The oversize Bloomies underwear that she had bought for some older child.

The underwear that became part of the staging.

The real question to me is, Why The Oversize Underwear? but I guess that's something we will never know...unless someone talks that is.

Trawling way back through my memory here, didn't PR admit to tearing the gifts while looking for something, or said she may have earlier that day?

:twocents:

Here it is, from PR's interview June 1998

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this.
Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke’s upcoming January birthday.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 339


A Christmas morning photograph of JonBenet and Burke depicted unwrapped gifts in the background as they posed by the tree with her new bicycle. Two presents bearing the same
wrapping paper were later photographed in the Wine Cellar after JonBenet’s body had been found.
[SNIP]
The content of the wrapped presents found in the basement was not revealed during the
investigation. Moreover, investigators did not obtain a search warrant for the contents of John Ramsey’s plane, which had been packed full of things on Christmas day in preparation for the flight to Michigan.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 448

 

[UKGuy]

Some ideas: They cared about her enough to want her buried in clean underwear, to cover up the vaginal penetration, they were handy (in the house), JB really wanted the days of the week underwear.

LinasK,
The Day of The Week might be a staging element alike the date on JonBenet's tombstone?

to cover up the vaginal penetration,

This and the longjohns, absolutely!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this.
Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke’s upcoming January birthday.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 339


A Christmas morning photograph of JonBenet and Burke depicted unwrapped gifts in the background as they posed by the tree with her new bicycle. Two presents bearing the same
wrapping paper were later photographed in the Wine Cellar after JonBenet’s body had been found.
[SNIP]
The content of the wrapped presents found in the basement was not revealed during the
investigation. Moreover, investigators did not obtain a search warrant for the contents of John Ramsey’s plane, which had been packed full of things on Christmas day in preparation for the flight to Michigan.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 448

cynic,
Excellent. Thanks for the info, so unwrapped gifts from upstairs, did these make their way down to the wine-cellar, is this what Kolar is suggesting?

that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this.

She wants to airbrush Burke out of the picture, its so obvious. Now if Burke partially opened the gifts in the basement, maybe he knew there was a pair of size-12's or least female underwear in one of those packages?

No wonder Kolar is BDI ...

Also:

An example of FAOSchwartz wrapping paper

Blanket in wine-cellar note wrapping paper bottom left

JonBenet Christmas Morning with wrapping paper to her left

.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
But why would Patsy need to unwrap gifts she had recently wrapped, were there no name tags on the gifts, who wraps gifts with no name tags?
.

She didn't wrap them. She purchased stuff at FAO Schwartz which was gift wrapped and delivered and stored away without checking. This is a woman who probably overbought, doubled up on presents, brought extras for drop ins, and so on. She probably had no idea what she'd bought for whom or where it was stashed, too much money can do that to you. ullhair:

Sounds to me as if Patsy is offering an alibi for the partially opened gifts just as she did with the size-12's?
.

Agreed.

Anyway why is Kolar saying they were opened earlier that day, so who is correct Patsy or Kolar?.

I don't see how Kolar could know that for sure? But I haven't read his book. :dunno:

Also: Patsy would never have put those size-12's on JonBenet, they are a give away!.

I think it's something a mother would do, if she wanted to cover what she'd done, and knew there was underwear close by to do it with.

She'd peeked at the underwear earlier in the cellar and used it because she knew it was to hand. JB wouldn't have been covered with them at all if they hadn't been nearby for a staging, shamed PR to grab. JR had already instructed her not to enter JB's room again, perhaps for fear of waking Burke.

Someone other than Patsy thought the size-12's would do for whatever reason.

Probably a day of the week issue..

You mean like an OCD issue? I have to cover what I've done with the correct day?

I believe whoever placed them knew they were there to use, already wrapped in the cellar. PR admits she had been peeking at the gifts and tearing the paper so find out what she had down there. She'd probably done that on Christmas morning before they went visiting so knew they were there.

And according to Patsy not something JonBenet cared too much about.
I reckon either John or Burke Ramsey placed the size-12's on JonBenet?.
.

I don't, simply because to me, redressing her has something to do with shame, and I don't think JR is ashamed. PR, yes, at some level, hence all the praying etc.

Also BDI is an impossibility to me.

:cow:

 

[Venom]

Couldn't Kolar have found out that BR was responsible for tearing back the paper on the presents by his (BR) grand jury testimony? That might have been a question that he was asked?

 

[cynic]

Couldn't Kolar have found out that BR was responsible for tearing back the paper on the presents by his (BR) grand jury testimony? That might have been a question that he was asked?

I'm not sure how that specific information came to light, although I'm certain that Kolar wouldn't reveal any information obtained through grand jury questioning.

 

[tezi]

I'm not sure how that specific information came to light, although I'm certain that Kolar wouldn't reveal any information obtained through grand jury questioning.

I agree cynic. It was probably obtained through the interviews in 1998 before the GJ testimony. Remember BR was questioned for three days. That was when the BPD was told not to come to the state of Georgia...

JMO

 

[Venom]

Cynic and Tezi, you are both right. I posted before I thought it out. It slipped my mind that the GJ testimony couldn't be revealed.

 

[JC84]

I'm new-ish here, but an avid reader...I've discovered an interesting nugget of information via social media, but gather that I'm not allowed to post links here?

So I hate to post anything without a source, but...There are reasonably strong indications that Burke Ramsey is getting married.

 

[cynic]

I agree cynic. It was probably obtained through the interviews in 1998 before the GJ testimony. Remember BR was questioned for three days. That was when the BPD was told not to come to the state of Georgia...

JMO

The 1998 interview was the most comprehensive and therefore the most likely.
The first two interviews were very early in the grand scheme of things, and a question like that would not have been asked during the DSS interview.
December 26, 1996 – Interview by Det. Fred Patterson
January 6, 1997 - DSS interview
June 10-12, 1998 - Interview by DA’s office
May 1999 - Testimony to grand Jury

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm new-ish here, but an avid reader...I've discovered an interesting nugget of information via social media, but gather that I'm not allowed to post links here?

So I hate to post anything without a source, but...There are reasonably strong indications that Burke Ramsey is getting married.

Can you give us some indication of where you got this info from? Is it someone's FB page? Or some wedding registry? Thanks.

 

[cynic]

Another picture, (one I happen to find very sad,) but it also shows the FAO Schwartz wrapping paper

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Cynic:

Thank you for posting that pic above. What I also find very sad about it is that in a few short hours, JBR would be placed under that tree, in almost the same position but prone. And of course, she was to become a victim of a despicable crime. All of her life and energy destroyed and taken from her.

The sadness, the irony, the disgust.

And that is what I feel everytime I think about this case.

That picture sums up all my feelings in a nutshell.

RIP little angel.

 

[tezi]

Cynic and Tezi, you are both right. I posted before I thought it out. It slipped my mind that the GJ testimony couldn't be revealed.

Venom, if we live long enough, we may see the GJ testimony be revealed.

JMO

 

[FrayedKnot]

Cynic:

Thank you for posting that pic above. What I also find very sad about it is that in a few short hours, JBR would be placed under that tree, in almost the same position but prone. And of course, she was to become a victim of a despicable crime. All of her life and energy destroyed and taken from her.

The sadness, the irony, the disgust.

And that is what I feel everytime I think about this case.

That picture sums up all my feelings in a nutshell.

RIP little angel.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

The sinking in my chest when I see the joy of a six-year-old on Christmas morning, knowing she won't live to see another morning. It just chokes my heart.

 

[Nom de plume]

Patsy knew the size 12s were down there. She bought them. IMO, it doesn't really matter who tore the paper. If BR is the one that did it, he was just snooping for his birthday presents. What 9 yr old boy is going to pay any attention? If anything, he probably dropped the package immediately. The chances of JR knowing they were there is slim to none. PR probably rattled on about what she'd bought, who she bought it for, etc. JR most likely acted like he was listening, with an occasional "Oh" "Mm hmm" and it went in one ear and out the other.

So one person knows they're there. Another might have seen them, but paid no attention, and one almost surely doesn't know they're there.

Although I believe JR was involved in her death, if not solely responsible, I think in all likelihood PR did the redressing.