Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Chelly]

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

 

[UKGuy]

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

Chelly,
Of course it could. And from this assumption you could suggest a PDI with PR staging JonBenet as a sexual assault victim having been molested with the paintbrush handle, then asphyxiated, all to cover up PR losing it when JonBenet refused anymore medical treatment?

.

 

[questfortrue]

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

From a doctor's discussion I had once, I learned if JB were a pubertal teen, there might be such a prescription. For children, however, if it's bacterial (from not wiping property for example) they might have a parent apply a barrier ointment and give them oral antibiotics. An internal application is not a treatment used in children. But you brought up an interesting idea and one which could be considered if it were an "unusual doctor". Unusual like in someone who did unorthodox treatments. Wth Dr. B who knows. IIRC, PR said she used to apply desitin to give JB irritation relief. moo

 

[Chelly]

From a doctor's discussion I had once, I learned if JB were a pubertal teen, there might be such a prescription. For children, however, if it's bacterial (from not wiping property for example) they might have a parent apply a barrier ointment and give them oral antibiotics. An internal application is not a treatment used in children. But you brought up an interesting idea and one which could be considered if it were an "unusual doctor". Unusual like in someone who did unorthodox treatments. Wth Dr. B who knows. IIRC, PR said she used to apply desitin to give JB irritation relief. moo

Thanks Questfortune, I hadn't considered how a physician might treat a child in this case
C

 

[DeeDee249]

Do you have a link for this assertion from the dr? Do you know where that came from?

I never provide links. I don't ask for them either. I like to do my own homework. I had read the comment from Dr B years ago. Many people likely recall that comment. My information over the years has come primarily from ACR, several books (ST's, PMPT, Wecht and Kolar among them) as well as internet searches on the case.

 

[DeeDee249]

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

Yes, it is possible. The coroner noted injuries consistent with digital penetration, so there may be some differences that a medical examiner would detect. One thing is a FACT- something penetrated her vagina that night with enough force to cause her to bleed. She was alive when this happened- there was bruising too. Dead people don't bruise and they don't bleed. There was enough blood that it was necessary to wipe down her pubic area and thighs. Whether it was a too-forceful cleaning or something more sinister we won't know. But it is also certain that whatever was inserted hurt her- and had happened on at least one previous occasion because some of the internal vaginal bruising was healing.

 

[bettybaby00]

Good points from everyone involved. I had started typing a reply hours ago, and got interrupted and never hit send!

Questfortrue: my very 1st thought was to question whether a Dr. Would prescribe an internal treatment for such a young child.

But I also had the following thoughts:

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

it's possible, but several things make me believe this wasn't considered as likely:

1: Clearly there was something in the medical history of JB (and seemingly BR) that the Rs did not want revealed.
2: the conclusions drawn about JB being the victim of previous sexual contact was made by a number of experts; not just the ME
3: why didnt the ME and/or the numerous experts that he consulted with consider the possibility that the "treatment" of vaginitist was the cause for what they saw?

Also, FWIW, I have seen the following comment several times, but I don't know what the original source is:

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.
1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

Possibly someone else knows where it's from?

 

[Chelly]

Yes, it is possible. The coroner noted injuries consistent with digital penetration, so there may be some differences that a medical examiner would detect. One thing is a FACT- something penetrated her vagina that night with enough force to cause her to bleed. She was alive when this happened- there was bruising too. Dead people don't bruise and they don't bleed. There was enough blood that it was necessary to wipe down her pubic area and thighs. Whether it was a too-forceful cleaning or something more sinister we won't know. But it is also certain that whatever was inserted hurt her- and had happened on at least one previous occasion because some of the internal vaginal bruising was healing.

I've no doubt at all concerning the vaginal violence committed the night she died. I'm just rethinking a bit the prior abuse.

 

[Chelly]

Good points from everyone involved. I had started typing a reply hours ago, and got interrupted and never hit send!

Questfortrue: my very 1st thought was to question whether a Dr. Would prescribe an internal treatment for such a young child.

But I also had the following thoughts:




it's possible, but several things make me believe this wasn't considered as likely:

1: Clearly there was something in the medical history of JB (and seemingly BR) that the Rs did not want revealed.
2: the conclusions drawn about JB being the victim of previous sexual contact was made by a number of experts; not just the ME
3: why didnt the ME and/or the numerous experts that he consulted with consider the possibility that the "treatment" of vaginitist was the cause for what they saw?

Also, FWIW, I have seen the following comment several times, but I don't know what the original source is:

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.
1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

Possibly someone else knows where it's from?

BBM Bettybaby: Excellent points. You've helped me get back on tract.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've no doubt at all concerning the vaginal violence committed the night she died. I'm just rethinking a bit the prior abuse.

Just remember the coroner noted some evidence of healing injuries. While a date cannot be pin-pointed, it can be stated with certainty that some of the injuries happened between 72 and 24 hours PRIOR to her death and PRIOR to the injuries that occurred just before death. This is what was defined as "acute". The prior injuries were termed "chronic". When used in this sense, "chronic" does not necessarily mean long-term or over a long period. It simply means having occurred a specific period of time before any injures associated with the time of death.

 

[renah]

There was enough blood that it was necessary to wipe down her pubic area and thighs.

Of course Ive read this before but today it's caused a double take. Im not clear on where all that blood came from: When a woman loses her virginity, yes there is blood but not enough to flow out of the vagina, onto the pubic area, and then down the thighs! Ditto for flow at the start of menstruation, especially when she is lying prone, either on her back or on her stomach.

I am presuming that JBR was prone when the assault and the bleeding from it occured, as this (to me) is the overwelming probability. I know there's been speculation that JB -- or her body -- was posed in a sitting position for a time. There's also been discussion that she'd been hung from her wrists (god I hate writing that) but I reject that idea since there's zip evidence to back it up.

Whatever position she was in, I dont see how there was so much blood that it flowed out of her vagina, to her thighs, so much so that it required wiping. If there were cuts to the vaginal wall (or anywhere else for that matter) I might reconsider, but Ive seen nothing about this in any report. Has anyone?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I never provide links. I don't ask for them either. I like to do my own homework. I had read the comment from Dr B years ago. Many people likely recall that comment. My information over the years has come primarily from ACR, several books (ST's, PMPT, Wecht and Kolar among them) as well as internet searches on the case.

That seems odd but okay.

http://byebv.com/untreated-bacterial-vaginosis/

Reading this and other pages with symptoms causes and treatments, I still do not see an obvious sign of sexual abuse.
I still see many reasons for the issue that do not have to be sinister.

Growing up I had a friend who had horrible vaginal infections. No abuse. Just something she was prone to. She was never allowed to sit in wet suit. Not allowed to have baths at all and she still got them.

The fact that a little girl had infections even many times does not set off bells for me on its own.

 

[bettybaby00]

Of course Ive read this before but today it's caused a double take. Im not clear on where all that blood came from: When a woman loses her virginity, yes there is blood but not enough to flow out of the vagina, onto the pubic area, and then down the thighs! Ditto for flow at the start of menstruation, especially when she is lying prone, either on her back or on her stomach.

I am presuming that JBR was prone when the assault and the bleeding from it occured, as this (to me) is the overwelming probability. I know there's been speculation that JB -- or her body -- was posed in a sitting position for a time. There's also been discussion that she'd been hung from her wrists (god I hate writing that) but I reject that idea since there's zip evidence to back it up.

Whatever position she was in, I dont see how there was so much blood that it flowed out of her vagina, to her thighs, so much so that it required wiping. If there were cuts to the vaginal wall (or anywhere else for that matter) I might reconsider, but Ive seen nothing about this in any report. Has anyone?

Just b/c we know she bled, and that there was evidence she was wiped down does not necessarily mean there was a large amount of blood. That's my feeling anyway, especially when you consider the manner in which she was staged.

The MEs report notes "abrasion" and hyperemia inside her.

Idk if it was staging or undoing, but the wiping down and redressing gave the appearance of a death by strangulation. The "sexual assault" was not obvious when she was found, and therefore, wasn't revealed until the autopsy.

Lots of info can be found here, and is my source re: ME report

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The Body#AutopsyFindings

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09101997bynumabcprimetime.htm

Im not sure if that is an okay link or not but it is a link to a Primetime episode where DR Beuf was interviewed.



In which he confirms she was only in the office about 6 times for vaginal related issues and the rest was cold, sinus issues..

"DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection. A couple of other things. Dr. Beuf says he has turned in people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career, and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that with JonBenet Ramsey. And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's records, and they agreed with Dr. Beuf's analysis that there was nothing unusual there for a girl her age. "

Also this in the same show,
"An abrasion on her hymen, which was otherwise intact, some vaginal area blood, some bruising. "

I have to wonder why there is so much dispute over the facts in the case. Why there are so many different reports and I have to wonder if all the books are not in fact to help solve the mystery but to just make money and further ones career. Let's face it, Hating the Ramseys is a spectator sport. People are making money off them every day. Off the death of JonBenet.

So much of feels like opinions based on opinion based on opinions. When I go searching I find little fact to back some of it up.

It really makes me wonder about it all.

Still reading and learning and looking. Examining documents and looking for proof and answers.

Right now, I feel like the best answer lies in starting from the beginning. OMO

I hope the link is okay. I can not find the actual link to the video for that episode.. Still looking.

 

[2 percent]

Recent discussions on JB's medical records make me curious about both JB's medical examinations as well as the drugs prescribed to her by Dr. B.

It's been reported that JB suffered from Chronic Vaginitis, an internal vaginal condition that creates maddening itching and burning both internally and externally. In the 90's, I believe medication for vaginitis still required a doctor's prescription. The medication was applied by various types of applicators inserted into the vagina. So all this leads me to wonder, yet again, about the erosion of JB's hymen. Could the erosion have been the result of repeated insertions of medication applicators as well as soothing medication applied digitally into vagina?

It's an interesting theory but I see some problems with it.

JB had had a lot of doctor visits before she died and her doctor has said he saw vaginitis during at least one, if not more, exams (I think his words imply he saw vaginitis more than once when he said "the amount of vaginitis..."). If he's going to admit to seeing and at least nominally treating the vaginitis, why not admit to prescribing treatment other than water baths and learning proper hygiene?

While not common at all, vaginitis does appear in some children and, unlike women, they have to get a prescription for internal treatment because of the age difference and hormonal levels.

So why would Dr. B admit to everything but vaginal suppository treatment? Ditto the Ramseys...why admit to JB having "plumbing" problems but stop short of admitting to a vaginal suppository that could explain away the accusation of previous, chronic, damage to the hymen. It's not logical.

There's another problem too. It doesn't explain the damage on the night of the murder. If we assume the damage to the hymen was made by a vaginal suppository, then evidence of that suppository had to be present. Anyone who has had vaginitis or a yeast infection knows it is recommended that you insert the suppository in the evening so it can melt overnight. Not only that, but the medication would be detectable during autopsy and it wasn't - don't forget the anti itch cream, too, for the outer areas (which appear to be the only areas Dr. B treated, unless he's lying). If I remember correctly the coroner said he didn't even see signs of vaginitis much less topical or internal medications.

Again, anyone that has suffered from vaginitis or yeast infections knows there would be more evidence of irritation than what was shown in the autopsy. It is not a pleasant ailment and anyone who has had to try to keep children from scratching things like chicken pox and insect bites knows how impossible it would be for JB not to have some major signs of irritation if she had active vaginitis at the time of death. Not just from the disease and treatment but from the skin crawling, jaw clenching need to scratch the itch.

 

[blefuscu]

My view remains that John did it. I think he was digitally abusing JB, and had possibly gone further that night and possibly tried to rape her and to keep her quiet hit her on the head, causing the massive scull fracture. Realising what he'd done he takes her to the WC, ties her up, and to cover tracks in case the body is found he penetrated her with the paintbrush and ties the ligature.

The celler and WC were going to be cold. It's winter in Boulder, snow and ice, there's a broken window and no-one keeps wine in warm conditions, they need to be kept cold and dry, so John has time to store the body for a while.

I think he writes the ransom note, I read a blog which compared his, PR and the note and his writing was incredibly similar to the note. Obviously the monetary value was obscure. If you are a real kidnapper and there is a rich family you ask for £1 million or half a million not an obscure amount.

First mistake happens when PR finds the note and phoned the police. JR wanted an opportunity to move the body from the house and that is now gone. I believe he eas planning to send Burke and Patsy to the White's and that would give him time to remove JB's body. However Burke is still removed from the house to the White's. Chaos abounds at their home, loads of people looking all over.

FW missed the body, the police missed the body, there was no smell because the WC is cold. John needs to "find" the body because his plan has spectacularly unraveled. So when he's "disappeared" for that spell he moves JB forward in the WC. To make the "find" more reliable he needs a witness. As far as the ransome note says a group has her and they are waiting to call, why would the repeat searches of the house be needed if John wasn't staging finding her.

Off he and Fleet go, and he doesn't really see the body in the WC, he's in front of Fleet, he just needs to cry out, and say he's seen her. He's a bereaved father, who found his child dead, he thinks that the police will believe he saw her.

He brings up her body, now in Rigor. Patsy is in shock, she has been since finding the note, and does what happens to people in shock sometimes and freezes. She doesn't want to see her baby dead. Then collapses onto her when she has to face the fact that JB is dead.

John has the power to control the LE. Patsy stands by her husband, she has Burke to think of. Plus she's battling cancer. I honestly believe John did it, and John alone.

 

[Nom de plume]

Of course Ive read this before but today it's caused a double take. Im not clear on where all that blood came from: When a woman loses her virginity, yes there is blood but not enough to flow out of the vagina, onto the pubic area, and then down the thighs! Ditto for flow at the start of menstruation, especially when she is lying prone, either on her back or on her stomach.I am presuming that JBR was prone when the assault and the bleeding from it occured, as this (to me) is the overwelming probability. I know there's been speculation that JB -- or her body -- was posed in a sitting position for a time. There's also been discussion that she'd been hung from her wrists (god I hate writing that) but I reject that idea since there's zip evidence to back it up.

Whatever position she was in, I dont see how there was so much blood that it flowed out of her vagina, to her thighs, so much so that it required wiping. If there were cuts to the vaginal wall (or anywhere else for that matter) I might reconsider, but Ive seen nothing about this in any report. Has anyone?

BBM Sorry, I have to completely disagree with you on this statement. That may have been your experience, but it certainly wasn't mine.

Not directing this at you specifically renah, but if anyone subscribes to the belief that the paint brush (or what ever) was used to mask prior injuries, whether they be weeks, days or hours old, why would this be necessary if the old "injuries" were from prescribed medication? Masking, or attempting to mask them, is only necessary if the injuries came from abuse. Why mask something innocent?

 

[Nom de plume]

That seems odd but okay.

http://byebv.com/untreated-bacterial-vaginosis/

Reading this and other pages with symptoms causes and treatments, I still do not see an obvious sign of sexual abuse.
I still see many reasons for the issue that do not have to be sinister.

Growing up I had a friend who had horrible vaginal infections. No abuse. Just something she was prone to. She was never allowed to sit in wet suit. Not allowed to have baths at all and she still got them.

The fact that a little girl had infections even many times does not set off bells for me on its own.

I too had a friend growing up with recurring infections. She swore she was not abused....until after she ran away as a teenager. Not that all little girls with infections are abused, but just because she never admitted it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening to her. Far, far more girls and women keep the secret than those that ever tell anyone.

 

[renah]

BBM Sorry, I have to completely disagree with you on this statement. That may have been your experience, but it certainly wasn't mine.

Not directing this at you specifically renah, but if anyone subscribes to the belief that the paint brush (or what ever) was used to mask prior injuries, whether they be weeks, days or hours old, why would this be necessary if the old "injuries" were from prescribed medication? Masking, or attempting to mask them, is only necessary if the injuries came from abuse. Why mask something innocent?

Im confused. What does this have to do with medication?

Maybe its right in front of my face but Ive read over my post several times and Im not seeing it?

I realize i dont add much to the discussions here-- mostly i ask non-important questions-- but in my defense, i am a very new nubie. I get these little distractions that cause me to ask, but until i get the answers or opinions, i stall out and cant proceed in my studying of the case.

Mainly i wondered about how much blood because i know its said that JRs shirt was used to clean it up. If there was alot of it then it should have been easy to confirm this.

They matched fibers on JB to the shirt, but Ive never seen mention of whether LE actually had it in their possession. It seems that they must have, though...

 

[DeeDee249]

Im confused. What does this have to do with medication?

Maybe its right in front of my face but Ive read over my post several times and Im not seeing it?

I realize i dont add much to the discussions here-- mostly i ask non-important questions-- but in my defense, i am a very new nubie. I get these little distractions that cause me to ask, but until i get the answers or opinions, i stall out and cant proceed in my studying of the case.

Mainly i wondered about how much blood because i know its said that JRs shirt was used to clean it up. If there was alot of it then it should have been easy to confirm this.

They matched fibers on JB to the shirt, but Ive never seen mention of whether LE actually had it in their possession. It seems that they must have, though...

It was never proven that the fibers from JR's shirt were used to wipe her pubic area and thighs of blood. it WAS proved that his shirt fibers were found INSIDE the crotch of her panties (which were new, right out of the package and unlaundered). The coroner found dark fibers on her pubic area and thighs and noted that this was "consistent with the area being wiped down with a cloth". After taking swabs of the area, JB's own blood was found. No one would be able to tell the amount of blood because it had been wiped away, but obviously there had to be enough to make wiping necessary.