Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[La Louve]

gitana1, I just want to say I always find your posts so helpful and informative. Thank you for sharing your expertise and experience with us.

 

[Tulessa]

gitana1, I just want to say I always find your posts so helpful and informative. Thank you for sharing your expertise and experience with us.

She's a rare gem!

 

[MyBelle]

Would you really give up your baby? I wouldn't. And as a family law attorney I can tell you that the only ones I have known to give up fighting for their kids are those with serious mental health, drug or alcohol issues, and/or those who really don't give much of a damn.



No, the infant was not "taken" by the father. He went to court seeking sole custody and won based on the mother's refusal to participate in the litigation.

She may be able to get joint legal custody but as to significant parenting time, that is unlikely to occur for years, if ever, because she voluntarily gave up all contact for 4 years, leading to a situation where there is no mother-child relationship and thus the best interest of the child does not indicate such contact. The best interest standard looks at the child's need to maintain a relationship with the parent he or she knows and loves, and/or at what the other parent can offer to the child.

It is certainly the policy of the law to start with the premise that frequent and continuing contact with both parents is in the best interest of the child. But that's the starting point. A long voluntary separation from a child can do much to affect that premise. The age of the child at the time of separation is key as well.

TH has done much to permanently damage her rights to her child and her relationship with her. Her family law attorneys would have explained that to her way back when. She made her choice. If she plays ball, she is very likely to get some form of contact with her kid but she has a long row to hoe. Very long.

Btw, I am a family law attorney. That's my practice.

BBM. I'm just going by the news reports that Kaine took the child from their home and using the alleged murder-for-hire plot as the basis he obtained a restraining order against Terri on behalf of the child.

I'm curious if Terri was your client, how would you have advised her? What legal way did she have to get around the order of protection. Thanks.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97360254.html

Divorce papers, restraining order put spotlight on stepmother

The source said the restraining order is a physical restraining order that is meant to protect the couple’s 18-month-old daughter, Kiara. Details of the restraining order are sealed.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/Details-in-alleged-plot-to-kill-Kyron-Hormans-father-234865231.html
When law enforcement officials informed Kaine of what they had learned, he and Kiara left their home, he filed for divorce and obtained an order of protection

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

Oops. Sorry link already posted right above. The "facts" in this case are so bizarre, I have trouble believing much of anything.

 

[Shadowboy]

I’ve been reviewing the several archived threads re: the MFH and the landscapers, trying to figure out what new tidbits the RS depo tells us. First, we have a more complete timeline:

(unknown month) 2008: RS begins work at the Horman home (according the RS depo)

Late 2009/January 2010: TM discusses MFH (according the RS depo)

March 2010: TM’s son sent to live in southern Oregon, last name changed to Moulton. (“Since March, James has lived in Roseburg, first with his grandparents and now with Tarver.” http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_blended_family_f.html)

April 2010: TM complains to a friend that KH is overbearing, “Makes me pay $1000 a month to him for bills although it's my child support and unemployment. I do all the yard work, house work, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters.” http://www.katu.com/news/local/108352154.html

Late April/early May 2010: TM advertises for a new landscaper http://www.kxl.com/EXCLUSIVE-AUDIO--...om-Ter/7620648

Date unknown, but likely April/May 2010: New landscaper hired for Horman home (“Meanwhile, a landscaper recently hired by the Hormans said he was contacted by detectives and cooperated with the investigation. He said he just did landscaping for the family. http://www.katu.com/news/local/97845894.html)

June 4, 2010: Kyron disappears

“Stuff” that strikes me as “huh” …

IMO, the timeline of TM’s actions hint at distancing herself from RS and getting her son safely away from her plans. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but …

Also, we now have confirmation that Kaine did not know TM employed a landscaper … and the LANDSCAPER knew KH was in the dark about it. Question: If KH was so tight with money, how was payment to RS kept hidden … and why? This also explains why TM complained about having to do all of the yard work, etc. IMO, she was backfilling a lie and ‘building a case’ against KH.

TM obviously had a relationship with RS that went beyond employer-contractor. I’ve never taken the person who mows my lawn out to lunch. And in one of the court papers (which I can’t dig up right now) … around the time of the first RO and the sexting incident, it is mentioned the sexting at that time was similar in nature to sexting communications with RS. Why, after an obviously 'closer than usual' relationship, did TH get rid of RS in the spring of 2010?

Why did TH believe KH had a chance in heck to gain sole custody of the Baby in the event of a divorce? That's a pretty tough "sell" in divorce court. Was KH aware of TM circumstances that would bolster such an action? Or is this just another lie designed to garner “poor me” sympathy?

Sure like to read the entire depo!

 

[MyBelle]

I’ve been reviewing the several archived threads re: the MFH and the landscapers, trying to figure out what new tidbits the RS depo tells us. First, we have a more complete timeline:

(unknown month) 2008: RS begins work at the Horman home (according the RS depo)

Late 2009/January 2010: TM discusses MFH (according the RS depo)

March 2010: TM’s son sent to live in southern Oregon, last name changed to Moulton. (“Since March, James has lived in Roseburg, first with his grandparents and now with Tarver.” http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_blended_family_f.html)

April 2010: TM complains to a friend that KH is overbearing, “Makes me pay $1000 a month to him for bills although it's my child support and unemployment. I do all the yard work, house work, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters.” http://www.katu.com/news/local/108352154.html

Late April/early May 2010: TM advertises for a new landscaper http://www.kxl.com/EXCLUSIVE-AUDIO--...om-Ter/7620648

Date unknown, but likely April/May 2010: New landscaper hired for Horman home (“Meanwhile, a landscaper recently hired by the Hormans said he was contacted by detectives and cooperated with the investigation. He said he just did landscaping for the family. http://www.katu.com/news/local/97845894.html)

June 4, 2010: Kyron disappears

“Stuff” that strikes me as “huh” …

IMO, the timeline of TM’s actions hint at distancing herself from RS and getting her son safely away from her plans. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but …

Also, we now have confirmation that Kaine did not know TM employed a landscaper … and the LANDSCAPER knew KH was in the dark about it. Question: If KH was so tight with money, how was payment to RS kept hidden … and why? This also explains why TM complained about having to do all of the yard work, etc. IMO, she was backfilling a lie and ‘building a case’ against KH.

TM obviously had a relationship with RS that went beyond employer-contractor. I’ve never taken the person who mows my lawn out to lunch. And in one of the court papers (which I can’t dig up right now) … around the time of the first RO and the sexting incident, it is mentioned the sexting at that time was similar in nature to sexting communications with RS. Why, after an obviously 'closer than usual' relationship, did TH get rid of RS in the spring of 2010?

Why did TH believe KH had a chance in heck to gain sole custody of the Baby in the event of a divorce? That's a pretty tough "sell" in divorce court. Was KH aware of TM circumstances that would bolster such an action? Or is this just another lie designed to garner “poor me” sympathy?

Sure like to read the entire depo!

BBM. The entire depo might paint a completely different picture. It appears to have been selectively released by one side's attorney.

If Kaine controlled all the household money, it is quite a stretch to believe he didn't notice the missing money used to pay the landscaper.

I don't know why Terri feared Kaine had a chance to gain sole custody but it is a fact that he has had sole custody for three years now.

This entire murder-for-hire plot seems to be a red herring because Terri had no motive to harm Kyron if she wanted out of the marriage with his father. Disappearing Kyron or harming him in any way would not ensure custody of her daughter.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

BBM. I'm just going by the news reports that Kaine took the child from their home and using the alleged murder-for-hire plot as the basis he obtained a restraining order against Terri on behalf of the child.

I'm curious if Terri was your client, how would you have advised her? What legal way did she have to get around the order of protection. Thanks.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97360254.html

Divorce papers, restraining order put spotlight on stepmother

The source said the restraining order is a physical restraining order that is meant to protect the couple’s 18-month-old daughter, Kiara. Details of the restraining order are sealed.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/Details-in-alleged-plot-to-kill-Kyron-Hormans-father-234865231.html
When law enforcement officials informed Kaine of what they had learned, he and Kiara left their home, he filed for divorce and obtained an order of protection

Leaving one's house with a child that is lawfully your is not "taking" the child. Neither is seeking restraining order. He sought help from the law to get custody of the child and prevent the mother from having contact. TH refused and failed to contest his efforts by refusing to fully participate in the child custody litigation.

What would I do if TH was my client? That's a good question. I believe she is very guilty. Of murder. So I would do exactly what her attorneys advised her to do and that is to give up to protect herself from incrimination. There is no way to get around an order of protection. But, she could have fought it and chose not to. If I was her attorney, I would have advised her to do precisely what she did, if she valued her freedom.

BBM. The entire depo might paint a completely different picture. It appears to have been selectively released by one side's attorney.

If Kaine controlled all the household money, it is quite a stretch to believe he didn't notice the missing money used to pay the landscaper.

I don't know why Terri feared Kaine had a chance to gain sole custody but it is a fact that he has had sole custody for three years now.

This entire murder-for-hire plot seems to be a red herring because Terri had no motive to harm Kyron if she wanted out of the marriage with his father. Disappearing Kyron or harming him in any way would not ensure custody of her daughter.

JMO

Well, one of the quotes above indicates TH complained that Kaine "made" TH give him $1,000 per month toward the bills. If so, he would not have appeared to be in control of all the household money.

As to the MFH plot being a red herring, if she wanted to get rid of Kaine, because she felt a divorce would allow him to share custody, at least, something she didn't want, and if that fell through and she realized she was stuck with him and the kid she said she hated, well, the next thing to do would be to "punish" him through his son.

 

[MyBelle]

Leaving one's house with a child that is lawfully your is not "taking" the child. Neither is seeking restraining order. He sought help from the law to get custody of the child and prevent the mother from having contact. TH refused and failed to contest his efforts by refusing to fully participate in the child custody litigation.

What would I do if TH was my client? That's a good question. I believe she is very guilty. Of murder. So I would do exactly what her attorneys advised her to do and that is to give up to protect herself from incrimination. There is no way to get around an order of protection. But, she could have fought it and chose not to. If I was her attorney, I would have advised her to do precisely what she did, if she valued her freedom.



Well, one of the quotes above indicates TH complained that Kaine "made" TH give him $1,000 per month toward the bills. If so, he would not have appeared to be in control of all the household money.

As to the MFH plot being a red herring, if she wanted to get rid of Kaine, because she felt a divorce would allow him to share custody, at least, something she didn't want, and if that fell through and she realized she was stuck with him and the kid she said she hated, well, the next thing to do would be to "punish" him through his son.

In custody proceedings, I thought the best interest of the child was the most important factor? I know from a good friend who is a child psychologist that infants should never be removed from the care of their primary caregiver without good reason because such separation can cause extreme anxiety in the child and have long-term behavioral consequences such as regression in development. The Judge granted the protection order because of the alleged hit scheme. That scheme has never been proved to be true. Is it fair to the little girl to keep her from her mother? I've seen nothing to indicate Terri was a bad mother.

I don't believe Terri's attorney believes she is guilty of murder. I think she knows information but I don't believe she killed Kyron.

If she had chosen to fight the protective order she would have lost, imo because the Judge in the custody proceeding granted the order and named her as a suspect in Kyron's disappearance. I don't believe whether or not she participated in the custody proceeding had anything to do with her freedom. If the prosecutor had evidence she hired someone to kill Kaine three years ago, he would have charged her by now.

In the article it also says Terri told the landscaper that Kaine carried with him $10,000 and that Kaine demanded she turn over to him the $1,000 child support she received for her son. To me, that is an example of close control of the household's money.

If Terri divorced Kaine or killed Kaine, why would she receive custody of Kyron rather than Desiree? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me as a motive for Terri to kill Kyron. I'm not convinced the child is dead.

JMO

 

[forthelost]

After three years of not seeing her mother, I think at this point her primary caregiver is her father. He's done a hundred percent of the parenting in that time.

 

[gwenabob]

In custody proceedings, I thought the best interest of the child was the most important factor? I know from a good friend who is a child psychologist that infants should never be removed from the care of their primary caregiver without good reason because such separation can cause extreme anxiety in the child and have long-term behavioral consequences such as regression in development. The Judge granted the protection order because of the alleged hit scheme. That scheme has never been proved to be true. Is it fair to the little girl to keep her from her mother? I've seen nothing to indicate Terri was a bad mother.

I don't believe Terri's attorney believes she is guilty of murder. I think she knows information but I don't believe she killed Kyron.

If she had chosen to fight the protective order she would have lost, imo because the Judge in the custody proceeding granted the order and named her as a suspect in Kyron's disappearance. I don't believe whether or not she participated in the custody proceeding had anything to do with her freedom. If the prosecutor had evidence she hired someone to kill Kaine three years ago, he would have charged her by now.

In the article it also says Terri told the landscaper that Kaine carried with him $10,000 and that Kaine demanded she turn over to him the $1,000 child support she received for her son. To me, that is an example of close control of the household's money.

If Terri divorced Kaine or killed Kaine, why would she receive custody of Kyron rather than Desiree? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me as a motive for Terri to kill Kyron. I'm not convinced the child is dead.

JMO

BBM

I believe she only TOLD the landscaper that Kaine carries that kind of money to sweeten the deal. She knew he didn't carry that money around. It was a lie used to try to manipulate the landscaper.

I believe she only TOLD the landscaper she was afraid of losing custody of the baby in a divorce. It was another lie she told to try to manipulate the landscaper.

As far as the $1,000, she only received $500 a month in child support, and I should remind everyone that it didn't even come from the boy's real father. It came from a second husband she suckered into adopting her son, then she left him as soon as she finished her college degree that she also suckered him into paying for. Then she sent her son down south to live with the real father who didn't pay child support and had given up his parental rights years earlier! And she still expected hubby number two to continue paying child support! When he wasn't even living in her house, and he had not seen the boy in years! She knew how to play men, that's for sure!

Also, she was receiving unemployment benefits regularly, and that is where the other $500 a month came from. She is the one who picked the house for them to buy. Kaine was supporting two adults and three children. Why wouldn't she have some monetary responsibility to the household?

Many, many people who know her have come out and stated what a master liar and manipulator TH is. How she would spin stories 27 ways to Friday, never telling the same story to 2 different people.

She knew she wouldn't have custody of Kyron should they divorce. Of course she wouldn't. I believe she killed Kyron to hurt Kaine, and as a last ditch effort to make Kaine pay attention to her and her children exclusively. Period.

Yes, that is evil. And yes, I believe she is just that evil.

 

[MyBelle]

After three years of not seeing her mother, I think at this point her primary caregiver is her father. He's done a hundred percent of the parenting in that time.

That's true but it does not mean the separation from her mother did not traumatize her at the time it happened or may still be emotionally traumatized by it. Not only has she not seen her mother, she was also removed from her home. That's a double whammy for a baby to go through.

JMO

 

[gwenabob]

That's true but it does not mean the separation from her mother did not traumatize her at the time it happened or may still be emotionally traumatized by it. Not only has she not seen her mother, she was also removed from her home. That's a double whammy for a baby to go through.

JMO

Who was removed from whose home? The baby still lives in the same home.

And considering the reports of how much Terri was drinking while on duty with her baby, I have to wonder if the child isn't actually better off...

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

I believe she only TOLD the landscaper that Kaine carries that kind of money to sweeten the deal. She knew he didn't carry that money around. It was a lie used to try to manipulate the landscaper.

I believe she only TOLD the landscaper she was afraid of losing custody of the baby in a divorce. It was another lie she told to try to manipulate the landscaper.

As far as the $1,000, she only received $500 a month in child support, and I should remind everyone that it didn't even come from the boy's real father. It came from a second husband she suckered into adopting her son, then she left him as soon as she finished her college degree that she also suckered him into paying for. Then she sent her son down south to live with the real father who didn't pay child support and had given up his parental rights years earlier! And she still expected hubby number two to continue paying child support! When he wasn't even living in her house, and he had not seen the boy in years! She knew how to play men, that's for sure!

Also, she was receiving unemployment benefits regularly, and that is where the other $500 a month came from. She is the one who picked the house for them to buy. Kaine was supporting two adults and three children. Why wouldn't she have some monetary responsibility to the household?

Many, many people who know her have come out and stated what a master liar and manipulator TH is. How she would spin stories 27 ways to Friday, never telling the same story to 2 different people.

She knew she wouldn't have custody of Kyron should they divorce. Of course she wouldn't. I believe she killed Kyron to hurt Kaine, and as a last ditch effort to make Kaine pay attention to her and her children exclusively. Period.

Yes, that is evil. And yes, I believe she is just that evil.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We know the landscaper was not manipulated into anything at all. He apparently continued his landscaping gig and didn't bother to contact LE about Terri's desire to off her husband until AFTER Kyron disappeared. It's not against the law to carry $10,000 or to tell anybody about it. For three years all the allegations that Terri is evil yet still no actual proof. I've had friends who have admitted they wished their spouse dead. Since none of them acted on it, I don't view them as evil, just unhappy.

It makes absolutely no sense that Terri would decide to kill Kyron for any reason. What would "hurt" Kaine more would be for him to lose full physical custody. If she had killed Kaine, Kyron would go to his mother which is what I believe Terri wanted. All the articles I've seen have pointed out that Terri told Desiree that Kyron was not happy living with them.

JMO

 

[gwenabob]

We'll have to agree to disagree. We know the landscaper was not manipulated into anything at all. He apparently continued his landscaping gig and didn't bother to contact LE about Terri's desire to off her husband until AFTER Kyron disappeared. It's not against the law to carry $10,000 or to tell anybody about it. For three years all the allegations that Terri is evil yet still no actual proof. I've had friends who have admitted they wished their spouse dead. Since none of them acted on it, I don't view them as evil, just unhappy.

It makes absolutely no sense that Terri would decide to kill Kyron for any reason. What would "hurt" Kaine more would be for him to lose full physical custody. If she had killed Kaine, Kyron would go to his mother which is what I believe Terri wanted. All the articles I've seen have pointed out that Terri told Desiree that Kyron was not happy living with them.

JMO

I never said the landscaper was manipulated. I said Terri told him lies in an attempt to manipulate him. She has a long history of manipulating men to her own benefit.

IMO, Terri did not want to divorce Kaine because she had no job and didn't want to work. She liked his income and being able to stay home full time. She wanted Kaine dead so she could stay in the house and collect SS survivor's benefits, life insurance and whatever else would come her way.

When she couldn't manipulate the landscaper (that Kaine didn't know about), she started looking for a new landscaper. To try to manipulate. With better lies and more tears, no doubt.

In the meantime, Kaine would *for sure* pay more attention to <Mod Snip> Terri if that pesky ADHD brat wasn't around causing trouble all the time. Get rid of the kid and maybe the marriage would get better, or Kaine would be so depressed he would off himself. Or at least *look* like he did.

 

[MyBelle]

Who was removed from whose home? The baby still lives in the same home.

And considering the reports of how much Terri was drinking while on duty with her baby, I have to wonder if the child isn't actually better off...

The daughter, KH, was removed from her home by her father and he obtained an order of protection. I think Terri remained living in the home for a period of time but I don't believe the child ever returned to her care in that home.

I've seen no evidence that Terri's actions ever endangered the children.

 

[MyBelle]

I never said the landscaper was manipulated. I said Terri told him lies in an attempt to manipulate him. She has a long history of manipulating men to her own benefit.

IMO, Terri did not want to divorce Kaine because she had no job and didn't want to work. She liked his income and being able to stay home full time. She wanted Kaine dead so she could stay in the house and collect SS survivor's benefits, life insurance and whatever else would come her way.

When she couldn't manipulate the landscaper (that Kaine didn't know about), she started looking for a new landscaper. To try to manipulate. With better lies and more tears, no doubt.

In the meantime, Kaine would *for sure* pay more attention to Princess Terri if that pesky ADHD brat wasn't around causing trouble all the time. Get rid of the kid and maybe the marriage would get better, or Kaine would be so depressed he would off himself. Or at least *look* like he did.

Where's the proof that Terri lied to the landscaper about anything? The news article sure didn't say it was lies. The landscaper believed her about the $10,000 and the abuse and I believe that is why he reported it to police AFTER Kyron disappeared. The landscaper wasn't manipulated into killing Kaine.

JMO

 

[gwenabob]

The daughter, KH, was removed from her home by her father and he obtained an order of protection. I think Terri remained living in the home for a period of time but I don't believe the child ever returned to her care in that home.

I've seen no evidence that Terri's actions ever endangered the children.

The baby was only out of the home for a couple weeks until Terri moved. She lives in the house now with her father. It has been reported in MSM many times. And I do firmly believe that caring for children while drunk is de facto child endangerment. Please do not forget the time she was arrested for speeding and driving drunk with her older son in the car. If that isn't endangerment, I don't know what is.

 

[gwenabob]

Where's the proof that Terri lied to the landscaper about anything? The news article sure didn't say it was lies. The landscaper believed her about the $10,000 and the abuse and I believe that is why he reported it to police AFTER Kyron disappeared. The landscaper wasn't manipulated into killing Kaine.

JMO

Kaine said he did not carry that kind of money around with him. She lied about it. We all know that in a normal divorce scenario both parents would share custody of the baby, and Kaine would not have received full custody. That is another lie TH told the landscaper, who is from another country and might not have been familiar with typical divorce agreements in the US.

We know the landscaper was not manipulated by her. But it was not for a lack of trying on her part.

 

[MyBelle]

The baby was only out of the home for a couple weeks until Terri moved. She lives in the house now with her father. It has been reported in MSM many times. And I do firmly believe that caring for children while drunk is de facto child endangerment. Please do not forget the time she was arrested for speeding and driving drunk with her older son in the car. If that isn't endangerment, I don't know what is.

My point was that the baby was removed from her primary caregiver and not returned. I have no idea whether Terri was drunk in her home while caring for her daughter. The basis for the protection order was the alleged murder-for-hire plot, not alcohol consumption.

JMO

 

[gwenabob]

My point was that the baby was removed from her primary caregiver and not returned. I have no idea whether Terri was drunk in her home while caring for her daughter. The basis for the protection order was the alleged murder-for-hire plot, not alcohol consumption.

JMO

She was arrested for drunk driving. And it was reported in MSM that much of the tension between TH and KH was because of her liberal usage of alcohol.