Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[Karmady]

I am not a lawyer; nor do I play one on TV. However I AM curious … and found this article (below) about perpetuation depositions. Interesting tactic. Thought I’d share, for the sake of discussion.

Maybe Gitana can chime in. Can a “perpetuation deposition” taken during a CIVIL case be used in a future CRIMINAL trial?

That asked: My interest went immediately to ‘All objections must be made during the deposition.’

http://www.mhgm.com/our-resources/a...-for-the-Prepared-and-Pitfalls-for-the-Unwary

“All objections must be made during the deposition.

The unique aspect of 39 I depositions that carries with it the most opportunity and risk – depending on your perspective – is the requirement that all objections be made during the deposition. “All objections to any testimony or evidence taken at the deposition shall be made at the time and noted upon the record.”
….
“Courts rigorously enforce the requirement that all objections be made during the 39 I deposition and that any objection not made will be waived.”
…
“The waiver of all objections not made during the 39 I deposition is a significant departure from the procedure in other depositions. The only objections that need to be made during the typical discovery deposition are objections to form and to other errors that “might be obviated, removed or cured” if an objection was promptly presented.”
…
“A further nuance is that parties must object not only to questioning and testimony, but to any other “evidence taken” at the 39 I deposition. ORCP 39 I(6). We believe this means that any objections one might make at trial to an exhibit such as lack of foundation, prejudice, relevance, or hearsay need to be made as to any offending exhibits or demonstratives offered during the deposition. The failure to object will be a waiver and the 39 I exhibits will be admitted at trial.”

They are common in civil cases, yes. Google de bene esse or trial preservation depositions. They're normally taken when someone is expected to possibly be unavailable for live testimony at trial -- sometimes because they are expected to be dead, but not always.

eta: I haven't read all of the newest posts, but it looks like this may be referring to the depo of the landscaper? In that case, the issue may be that he might be expected to be out of the country and beyond subpoena power at time of trial. I think I've read he is Mexican?
jmo

 

[La Louve]

This may be a level of gamesmanship far beyond what I'm used to.

(RS&BBM)

Houze is well known in the Pacific Northwest for his tactics in defending his often high-profile clients. People need deep pockets to hire him.

Thought this article was interesting to re-read:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97546039.html

"Houze has represented high-profile clients like Dr. Jayant Patel and at least three Portland Trail Blazers.

He represented Patel in the United States before he withdrew from the case. Patel was found guilty in Australia Tuesday of killing three of his patients and seriously harming another. He was sentenced to seven years in prison on Wednesday.

Houze also represented Deniz Aydiner, a man who received a life sentence for murdering University of Portland student Kate Johnson in 2001. Aydiner avoided the death penalty through a plea deal.

He also represented former Trail Blazer Zach Randolph. In 2006, a woman sued Randolph accusing him of sexually assaulting her in August of that year. In that case Multnomah County District Attorney Mike Schrunk said that he would not prosecute Randolph on criminal charges. Police never named Randolph as a suspect."

Also, make sure to check out the last photo of the story, of TH in her bodybuilding days. Comparing that to the most recent photos of her in court, I can sure see how her current state of health (physical/mental/emotional/spiritual) could be depressing for her.

I wonder if she used steroids back in those days.

 

[blefuscu]

I so wish there was a break in this case. I think about Kyron every day, even though I'm on a different continent. I just wish someone would talk, or something could be found to guide them to Kyron.

 

[gwenabob]

(RS&BBM)

Houze is well known in the Pacific Northwest for his tactics in defending his often high-profile clients. People need deep pockets to hire him.

Thought this article was interesting to re-read:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97546039.html

<snipped for space>


Also, make sure to check out the last photo of the story, of TH in her bodybuilding days. Comparing that to the most recent photos of her in court, I can sure see how her current state of health (physical/mental/emotional/spiritual) could be depressing for her.

I wonder if she used steroids back in those days.

It has been a long time so I can't find the source, but I distinctly recall someone--Kaine?--saying once she started bodybuilding, she lost 75-80 lbs in 3 months. I don't think anybody could do that without using steroids.

 

[Indy Anna]

They are common in civil cases, yes. Google de bene esse or trial preservation depositions. They're normally taken when someone is expected to possibly be unavailable for live testimony at trial -- sometimes because they are expected to be dead, but not always.

eta: I haven't read all of the newest posts, but it looks like this may be referring to the depo of the landscaper? In that case, the issue may be that he might be expected to be out of the country and beyond subpoena power at time of trial. I think I've read he is Mexican?
jmo

BBM
Rudy hasn't been deported, has he? I haven't seen it if that's the case. Would he be permitted to even get a Visa to leave the country since he may be a material witness in a criminal case?

TH knows that Rudy cooperated with LE when they used him in a sting to try to get a confession of the murder-for-hire from her. Interesting that RSE may have another chance to implicate TH on that count in a civil court. It would certainly be grounds for divorce and denying TH custody of Kiara but, if RSE does testify and incriminate TH of the murder-for-hire at the divorce proceedings, can we assume that RSE has no involvement in Kyron's disappearance?

Desiree dropped her civil suit against TH to avoid introducing testimony that could interfere with a potential criminal case against TH in Kyron's disappearance, so I'm sure Kaine would also avoid introducing any testimony into his divorce proceedings that could jeopardize a future criminal case against TH. Assuming this is true, I don't believe TH can be tried in a criminal court for the murder-for-hire, on testimony obtained in a civil proceeding, can she?

That takes me back to the original question of whether Rudy can leave the country, since he would not be considered a material witness in a criminal case (at least, relating to the Hormans) if: 1.) there is no evidence he was involved in Kyron's disappearance and 2.) TH can't be tried in a criminal court on the murder-for-hire charges. :waitasec:

 

[Indy Anna]

As for TH's physical appearance in the most recent photos, I thought she looked mentally unstable. She reminded me of a character from a movie or literature who was mentally unstable or devious, but I can't even place who it is. The movie character I posted a few days ago wasn't the one I was thinking of, but the expression is the closest I could find.

In previous public appearances (since the first press conference after Kyron vanished), she dressed well, wore makeup and had her hair coiffed. She has not only gained weight, her hair is also disheveled and she is wearing little to no makeup. While letting herself go could be a sign of depression or a troubled conscience, the expressions on her face suggest a cavalier attitude. To not even have a conscience for her involvement in whatever happened to Kyron, I do wonder if her unrefined appearance is an indication that she is being worn down. If so, again I doubt she is being worn down by a troubled conscience but more likely by being persistently bombarded with questioning about Kyron's disappearance .... from Kaine and Desiree, from strangers in public and maybe even from her own family, especially James. I can't help but wonder if James asks his mother periodically about Kyron and comments on how much he misses him. Maybe it wouldn't be enough to tug at a sociopath's heartstrings, but it's the idea that there is no place of refuge for Terri where she can escape the memory of Kyron. If she was thinking "out of sight, out of mind" she was very, very wrong.

 

[cluciano63]

As for TH's physical appearance in the most recent photos, I thought she looked mentally unstable. She reminded me of a character from a movie or literature who was mentally unstable or devious, but I can't even place who it is. The movie character I posted a few days ago wasn't the one I was thinking of, but the expression is the closest I could find.

In previous public appearances (since the first press conference after Kyron vanished), she dressed well, wore makeup and had her hair coiffed. She has not only gained weight, her hair is also disheveled and she is wearing little to no makeup. While letting herself go could be a sign of depression or a troubled conscience, the expressions on her face suggest a cavalier attitude. To not even have a conscience for her involvement in whatever happened to Kyron, I do wonder if her unrefined appearance is an indication that she is being worn down. If so, again I doubt she is being worn down by a troubled conscience but more likely by being persistently bombarded with questioning about Kyron's disappearance .... from Kaine and Desiree, from strangers in public and maybe even from her own family, especially James. I can't help but wonder if James asks his mother periodically about Kyron and comments on how much he misses him. Maybe it wouldn't be enough to tug at a sociopath's heartstrings, but it's the idea that there is no place of refuge for Terri where she can escape the memory of Kyron. If she was thinking "out of sight, out of mind" she was very, very wrong.

Guilty or not, I would expect her to have deteriorated over these years. Being prime suspect would be as stressful as being guilty, IMO.

 

[ami]

Guilty or not, I would expect her to have deteriorated over these years. Being prime suspect would be as stressful as being guilty, IMO.

And, you know, "missing Kyron" as well. If she's not guilty then she's still grieving over the loss of her beloved stepson and inside she's dying for answers to what happened to him, but must hide those feelings. That would make a person look haggard.

And if she's not guilty she also must feel awful that she would ideally be the prime witness and great asset to the investigators, as the person who spent the most time with Kyron at school that day, but she "can't" help the investigation to find him. And her innocent reasons are so strong that she was forced to not only hinder the investigation, but give up her own baby. That would eat like acid in an innocent person thrust into that situation.

I'm curious why Terri's team hasn't done the standard "and now we will hunt for the REAL killer" gambit. Does that only usually happen after the indictment? I think so.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

There's a thread "downstairs" about the one case that members would like most to be solved. For me, that case would be Kyron Horman's disappearance. I keep hoping that something - or someone - will break in the case and that we will eventually learn what happened to Kyron, who took him from Skyline school, the motive for the abduction, and whether or not Kyron is still alive or was murdered by his captor/s.

I don't keep up with the case regularly these days but read here when I hear something in the media. I'm happy to know that Websleuthers are still searching for answers to Kyron's disappearance :blowkiss:

 

[human]

BBM
Rudy hasn't been deported, has he? I haven't seen it if that's the case. Would he be permitted to even get a Visa to leave the country since he may be a material witness in a criminal case?

TH knows that Rudy cooperated with LE when they used him in a sting to try to get a confession of the murder-for-hire from her. Interesting that RSE may have another chance to implicate TH on that count in a civil court. It would certainly be grounds for divorce and denying TH custody of Kiara but, if RSE does testify and incriminate TH of the murder-for-hire at the divorce proceedings, can we assume that RSE has no involvement in Kyron's disappearance?

Desiree dropped her civil suit against TH to avoid introducing testimony that could interfere with a potential criminal case against TH in Kyron's disappearance, so I'm sure Kaine would also avoid introducing any testimony into his divorce proceedings that could jeopardize a future criminal case against TH. Assuming this is true, I don't believe TH can be tried in a criminal court for the murder-for-hire, on testimony obtained in a civil proceeding, can she?

That takes me back to the original question of whether Rudy can leave the country, since he would not be considered a material witness in a criminal case (at least, relating to the Hormans) if: 1.) there is no evidence he was involved in Kyron's disappearance and 2.) TH can't be tried in a criminal court on the murder-for-hire charges. :waitasec:

He does not need a visa to leave the country. He only needs a passport.

Perhaps he has plans on taking a cruise to the Greek Isles for all we know.

He is providing info for a divorce case. Just picture this as an ordinary divorce case as Terri has not been charged with anything. He certainly isn't going to put his life on hold for a divorce.

 

[human]

Guilty or not, I would expect her to have deteriorated over these years. Being prime suspect would be as stressful as being guilty, IMO.

Then why doesn't she address it?

Why doesn't she say who the last person was to see Kyron?

Why doesn't she say that her life is an open book.

Picture yourself in this situation.

If you were inn cent, wouldn't you do anything to clear your name instead of putting up road blocks?

Shouldn't she tell why her phone pinged at Sauvie, which is a different location than where she told LE she was driving?

Shouldn't she tell who the last person was to see Kyron?

If some people feel she is protecting her family because of sone death threat to them, wouldn't it just be easier to take Terri out and eliminate any potential threat?

 

[ami]

Then why doesn't she address it?

Why doesn't she say who the last person was to see Kyron?

Why doesn't she say that her life is an open book.

Picture yourself in this situation.

If you were inn cent, wouldn't you do anything to clear your name instead of putting up road blocks?

Shouldn't she tell why her phone pinged at Sauvie, which is a different location than where she told LE she was driving?

Shouldn't she tell who the last person was to see Kyron?

If some people feel she is protecting her family because of sone death threat to them, wouldn't it just be easier to take Terri out and eliminate any potential threat?

What gets me is that if she actually WAS innocent, then at best her actions are impeding the investigation to work out the most critical moments of the day Kyron vanished. And sokay she has the legal right to do that - legally she has the right not to help find a missing child. But morally? As the stepmother who raised him? WHY would she hinder the investigation, as an innocent person?

And yeah, I get that by cooperating to find a missing child, she would have the spotlight of the investigation temporarily on her, and through some detail that has never been released to the public this spotlight MIGHT cause her to look guiltier than she does now of kidnapping or murder, even though she was somewhere else at the time, and even though Kyron was seen with someone else after she left. But is that possibility - the possibility of a complete misunderstanding that could not be cleared up through openness and hard facts - enough to lose your baby over? As well as lose your marriage, your home, your reputation, your future employment potential? And enough to hinder the search for a missing child whom you loved? All of that, your entire life on hold, two children gone from you - all of that in exchange for avoiding the possibility that something you did in that particular day might have inadvertently looked guilty? And that nothing at all you did, said, accomplished, explained or demonstrated would innocently explain the thing you did that made you accidentally look guilty of kidnapping or murder?

Also I wonder - LE isn't charging her because with all the evidence they have now, they can't guarantee a conviction. If she talks to them, what does she think they will find that will convince LE they can secure a guilty verdict? I just can't wrap my head around that one question. What EXTRA piece of evidence does she think they can find that would secure a conviction? I know this has been asked before, but I simply can't imagine what innocent thing she could have said or done - something LE does not know about yet - that, if revealed, would convince them they could convict her?

 

[Kdube]

You know what I don't get about this case, is that the detectives told the father that T.H. had try to hire a hit man to kill him in the months leading up to the disappearance. If nothing at all, book her for that and hold her until she gives the whereabouts of Kyron. LE has a duty to protect. Not arresting Josh Powell was a fatal mistake. Laws need to change. Now, Ayla Reynolds is back in the news. She has not been found, however we know how this ends up and who is responsible. I hate to rant, but I am sickened about all of these children dying at the hands of a loved one. Parents have a responsibility as well..

 

[human]

They tried to get evidence with a sting in the murder for hire. Otherwise, it is a he said. She said thing. They cannot lock her up for that.

How would you like to be one of Kyron's loved ones, knowing she has the key and won't tell!

 

[Karmady]

BBM
Rudy hasn't been deported, has he? I haven't seen it if that's the case. Would he be permitted to even get a Visa to leave the country since he may be a material witness in a criminal case?

TH knows that Rudy cooperated with LE when they used him in a sting to try to get a confession of the murder-for-hire from her. Interesting that RSE may have another chance to implicate TH on that count in a civil court. It would certainly be grounds for divorce and denying TH custody of Kiara but, if RSE does testify and incriminate TH of the murder-for-hire at the divorce proceedings, can we assume that RSE has no involvement in Kyron's disappearance?

Desiree dropped her civil suit against TH to avoid introducing testimony that could interfere with a potential criminal case against TH in Kyron's disappearance, so I'm sure Kaine would also avoid introducing any testimony into his divorce proceedings that could jeopardize a future criminal case against TH. Assuming this is true, I don't believe TH can be tried in a criminal court for the murder-for-hire, on testimony obtained in a civil proceeding, can she?

That takes me back to the original question of whether Rudy can leave the country, since he would not be considered a material witness in a criminal case (at least, relating to the Hormans) if: 1.) there is no evidence he was involved in Kyron's disappearance and 2.) TH can't be tried in a criminal court on the murder-for-hire charges. :waitasec:

There aren't any charges pending, so even if he might be somewhat constrained in the case of a pending criminal case (I don't know whether that's true or not), he wouldn't be constrained in this situation.

That said, trial preservation depositions are taken sometimes even if the person just might be on vacation or visiting family or whatever. I was thinking more along those lines, or that he might decide to move back to Mexico for whatever reason. Not that he was about to be deported. And sometimes they are taken "just in case."

There's also the fact that trial objections have to be asserted at the preservation deposition just as though you were at trial. That can have some tactical advantages, as well.

all jmo

 

[rosesfromangels]

Several people have commented on the change in TMH's appearance. Well no wonder. She knows what happens to child killers in prison. I'd look old and worried too.
Just my opinion, of course...

 

[SurfieTX]

You know what I don't get about this case, is that the detectives told the father that T.H. had try to hire a hit man to kill him in the months leading up to the disappearance. If nothing at all, book her for that and hold her until she gives the whereabouts of Kyron. LE has a duty to protect. Not arresting Josh Powell was a fatal mistake. Laws need to change. Now, Ayla Reynolds is back in the news. She has not been found, however we know how this ends up and who is responsible. I hate to rant, but I am sickened about all of these children dying at the hands of a loved one. Parents have a responsibility as well..

Just like in Sky Metalwala's case. Julia admitted to leaving the 2 young children home alone for TWELVE hours while she went to mediation and yet, no charges for endangerment or anything!!! It just baffles my mind that LE doesn't charge either one of these two "women" for their other crimes.

 

[blefuscu]

They tried to get evidence with a sting in the murder for hire. Otherwise, it is a he said. She said thing. They cannot lock her up for that.

How would you like to be one of Kyron's loved ones, knowing she has the key and won't tell!

I couldn't tell you on here what my actions would be if Kyron was my child, as I know what I want to do to her now, and he isn't mine. Put it this way, Desiree has shown one heck of a lot of restraint!

 

[Shadowboy]

They tried to get evidence with a sting in the murder for hire. Otherwise, it is a he said. She said thing. They cannot lock her up for that.

How would you like to be one of Kyron's loved ones, knowing she has the key and won't tell!

ITA! What lured me into this case (aside from Ky’s smiling, proud face in front of his tree frog exhibit) was the MFH thing. Bottom line: LE can’t prove it … No “how to kill” logistics or money was exchanged, as far as we know. Without that, as I understand, the criminal investigation of the MFH plot is dead. Result: No further need to ask why TH hasn’t been arrested or charged re: MFH. Also no need to wonder why the MFH plot is no longer part of a “criminal investigation”.

Here’s the deal regarding the MFH “sting” that leaves me wondering. The night of the MCSO (stupid, IMO) sting, a truck pulled into the Horman driveway. And TH immediately – immediately – reported ‘it’ (the truck) as a threat via 911. Then (according to the Media) the reported “threat” (the person in the truck) was demanding 10K.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97989739.html

PORTLAND, Ore. - Terri Moulton Horman, the stepmother of missing Kyron Horman, made three 9-1-1 calls the day her husband took their daughter and left their home, sources said Wednesday.
Two of the calls were made in the early evening and then another late at night on Saturday, June 26, according to the sources.

One source said the first call made by Terri came in as a Priority Three call at 5:18 p.m. and was about someone in a truck threatening her. Moments later Terri made the second call and said a man wanted $10,000. But there was no explanation given for why he wanted it.

>>>>

Why … oh why … did TH report “someone in a truck threatening her” prior to (apparently) that same person approaching her and talking to her, demanding 10K? Did she recognize the truck as a threat? If not the truck, how did she recognize “someone in the truck” as an immediate threat?

I know this has been discussed here at WS. My bad. This question just 'wonks' me.

 

[cf0319]

... I think depression is responsible for her weight gain (which I also don't think is a huge change from before) and depression, in my opinion, having suffered it myself for many years, stops her from exercising. Knowing exercising will help your depression does not automatically motivate you to do it, that's for sure.

Terri is showing all the signs of deep depression from the loss of her daughter. But also, it takes a ridiculous amount of money to get your hair colored and cut at a salon (at least to me, maybe not to richer folks), and she has no source of income. I'm sure she doesn't want to burden her parents with that cost.

I don't understand why she still hasn't received spousal support. She contributed to that household too and they were a family. I don't think that she can work anywhere in public due to the danger. Some people have openly posted that someone should kill her.