Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.08.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 2

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Lisa Hepfner’s tweet:

The jury could find #Millard and/or #Smich guilty of first or second degree murder or of manslaughter, or it could find one or both of them not guilty. #LauraBabcock lunch break now until 2:15pm.

BBM
 
I can’t thank everyone participating in these discussions enough for all their time and expertise in explaining the finer points of law, opinions and reasoning. As well, all the time spent copying tweets so we can follow along. Each one of you is just amazing.

I just cannot wrap my head around the discussions/opinions/perspectives that it hasn’t been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that MS is guilty of M1.

I won’t list all the circumstantial evidence here that pertains to MS because we are all well aware of it. It seems like a wealth of evidence to convict MS to me, if I apply the Judge’s charges so far, because I simply cannot see any evidence whatsoever that would logically explain away a single element of the evidence presented, let alone the totality of the evidence against MS. I realize that he is innocent until proven guilty. To me all the factors that the Crown has presented are the most reasonable, logical conclusion I can draw from all the evidence presented. What other reasons could there possibly/probably be for all this circumstantial evidence against MS? Coincidence ... I think not.

I must be missing something.

Thoughts?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think a comprehensive listing of just the circumstantial evidence against MS for this murder only would be helpful. For me, a lot of the circumstantial evidence seems to be overlapping between this and the TB murder and the "next level missions" that we still have no idea what was supposed to be involved.

MOO
 
If anyone could pick up Lisa Hepfner's tweets after the lunch break, that'd be most helpful. I'm not sure I will have any time to devote to doing tweets later this aft. Sorry!
 
I can’t thank everyone participating in these discussions enough for all their time and expertise in explaining the finer points of law, opinions and reasoning. As well, all the time spent copying tweets so we can follow along. Each one of you is just amazing.

I just cannot wrap my head around the discussions/opinions/perspectives that it hasn’t been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that MS is guilty of M1.

I won’t list all the circumstantial evidence here that pertains to MS because we are all well aware of it. It seems like a wealth of evidence to convict MS to me, if I apply the Judge’s charges so far, because I simply cannot see any evidence whatsoever that would logically explain away a single element of the evidence presented, let alone the totality of the evidence against MS. I realize that he is innocent until proven guilty. To me all the factors that the Crown has presented are the most reasonable, logical conclusion I can draw from all the evidence presented. What other reasons could there possibly/probably be for all this circumstantial evidence against MS? Coincidence ... I think not.

I must be missing something.

Thoughts?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think that what you have stated is likely what the jury will come back with as well.

You will need to carefully read Justice Code's instructions on reasonable doubt when he gets there. I suggest to you that "the most reasonable logical conclusion" does not meet the test for proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
I just heard about this Supreme Court of Canada decision and wonder what effect it will have on this case - if not now, in terms of future appeals.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...should-be-considered-private/article37267893/

and

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supreme-court-texting-privacy-1.4437469

Without the text evidence, the case against MS is significantly weaker. Don't think it would make much difference re DM considering all the other factors.

If this is retroactive, Judge Code Might as well stop.
There would be no case without the text messages in this case and the TB case.
Could they appeal and walk on this SCoC. ruling?
 
To All participants

Holidays is the most difficult time for families that lost their loved one...I was thinking - would it be appropriate showing support to Laura's parents to come over to court to give them a card and a small 'care' gift...thoughts?
IT would be very appropriate and very nice gesture. I am sure they know how many people want Justice for their daughter.
 
To All participants

Holidays is the most difficult time for families that lost their loved one...I was thinking - would it be appropriate showing support to Laura's parents to come over to court to give them a card and a small 'care' gift...thoughts?

What an beautiful and awesome idea...faith in humanity restored! Thank you for that :). I am not anywhere near Toronto, but I would be so happy to donate to that!
 
If this is retroactive, Judge Code Might as well stop.
There would be no case without the text messages in this case and the TB case.
Could they appeal and walk on this SCoC. ruling?

"However, the court cautions that much depends on the facts of a case, and that the outcome might be different in other circumstances.

In a second ruling today, the Supreme Court dismissed an appeal of gun and drug convictions in a case where police had a production order to seize text messages stored on a Telus server."

Please don't stop Justice Code!
 
"However, the court cautions that much depends on the facts of a case, and that the outcome might be different in other circumstances.

In a second ruling today, the Supreme Court dismissed an appeal of gun and drug convictions in a case where police had a production order to seize text messages stored on a Telus server."

Please don't stop Justice Code!

Why was Telus keeping those messages on its servers? That I think a real breach of privacy. Unless it was documented somewhere somehow in the contract
 
I'm still thinking about the phone ping evidence we finally got to see yesterday.:thinking:

Remember how there are those messages from CN to DM at about 10:20 pm on July 3? - the ones where she says "have fun doing big things."

I thought I should be able to see some pings on DM's phone when he received those texts, but I don't see them. Do you think maybe DM was using two phones? Or do you think the ping data is just selected data? Or am I just not looking at the right thing?

Here is a screenshot with the text messages and one with the ping data from the relevant timeframe:
CN message July 3 vs DM phone pings.jpg

It's got me scratching my head!:waitasec:

MOO
 
Hello and thanks to all that play your varied roles - from researcher, to scribe, empath, instigator... ;) I've been reading every post since the beginning of TB's trial and only registered today. I appreciate the time all spend here, particularly those that move the discussion and facts forward. Apologies for the long post but I've been holding my thoughts all this time!

IMO, Millard meets M1, however my theory is different from what I often see here. I agree the eliminator was intended as an 'evidence disposal device', whether a body, personal contents of a stolen vehicle, or whatever other post-mission evidence might need to go away, but unlikely purchased with Laura in mind. They were always on missions. It was just another flashy ego-stroking grand-plan purchase that may or may not have been fully thought out despite the work and money spent on it, (like the jeep, the excavator in the mud, etc.). Yes it seems more nefarious than the rest, but we still question the excavator's purpose and it's reasonable to believe there are other dark happenings not reflected in the texts or witnesses we've seen.

I believe Laura's death was planned, but more hastily. We've heard she had a tendency to provoke or lash out at friends when under stress, there's a suggestion that DM had some unknown issue with her to 'handle', and after having asked her to keep her distance, there was an escalation of multiple calls and desperation on her part. Whether she was trying to stir something up or only desperate for a place to stay, I believe she was a nuisance he'd had enough of and quickly handled. DM "takes what he wants" and I don't see him waiting weeks/months to plan Laura's murder. She unfortunately just fell in the way of this dangerous DM lifestyle she likely hadn't been privy to.

Cause of death? Can't hazard a guess, but doubt MS was needed. IMO, MS knew the incinerator's purpose but did he know any plan to murder Laura? Millard would have no reason to keep it from him, but he may not have had the opportunity that day. 'Don't be out front' may imply pre-knowledge by MS, or just that DM wanted to get on with it or didn't want a distraction or suspicion, since MS and Laura weren't often (ever?) together in social situations. IMO, MS was brought back into the picture that night (if he wasn't already) and they planned next steps. So ... if MS knows the purpose of the incinerator but without a specific plan for a particular person, doesn't participate in the actual murder, but assists in disposal of the body, is that M1? But the incinerator is not the cause of death - does he need to have procured a weapon or discussed a plan to complete the act even if that weapon or plan wasn't the one put into place? I suppose that is where the Abetting comes in. I will have to re-read the charge carefully.

Here also is an interesting finding from Nov 30 I don't think has been raised in this group yet.
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...viction-that-relied-partly-on-rap-lyrics.html

Finally, a note on witnesses and family members. There are some I'm sure we love to hate, and some behave so differently than we ever would it helps us make sense of it by assigning motives of malevolence to understand their actions. However I have empathy and understanding for MB, MM, AM and others - this is a horrible situation for them too and despite their obvious failings I can't in any way put them in the same light as DM/MS. Even CN for example, though I shared the same disgust and irritation as she took the stand for TB, is IMO simply self-focused and over-confident with her immature theories and grand plans and letter-hoarding. True she is the same as DM in that way but I think the fact that he segregated his friends and girlfriends from his DM-MS personae was wise because there is a big line to cross between the drug scene and 'softer' missions and the sort of missions reserved for MS. I don't think CN was bothered how exactly Laura went away because she didn't care. That doesn't necessarily translate to being an accomplice, just self centred and shallow.

I hope I've brought some value to the dialogue. Now I'll go back to Mostly_Listening, however I welcome any challenges to my opinions based on the evidence or impressions and would be happy for a healthy debate! I really do hope some good can come of this trial whether it be peace for Laura's family and friends, consideration of missing persons follow up, or outing other dark characters involved in this and other crimes.
 
I think that MS knew that escalating their missions and "taking things right from the source" meant that they would eliminate the "source" if need be (as in the case of TB) I'm still not sure if he had any idea DM was planning to eliminate LB and whether just knowing what the incinerator's purpose was for, in missions down the road, is enough for him to get M1 for LB.

And speaking of taking things right from the source...poor WM. :notgood:

MOO
This is the thing, If I were on the jury I might be so swayed by the evidence that their missions were going to escalate a big monstrous ton, that I wouldn't loose sleep in over-convicting MS of his roll in the actual murder of LB.
It's almost enough for me that he knew where they were headed in the near future as a team. Convinced that I am saving lives.
(although) I do say this with TB evidence in mind. Often looking at billandrews time line some of TBs evidence is a shame it's not in LB trial & thankfully some is in.
Without seeing it completely - I just feel it. I also hate my mind going to what was going on in the HOURS their phones were not in use.
So I just see guilty as charged. Only because I do, I would be swayed, if something was shown to me that actually was convincing me away from that belief. I don't feel I am an adamant person, just practical or the likes.
 
What an beautiful and awesome idea...faith in humanity restored! Thank you for that :). I am not anywhere near Toronto, but I would be so happy to donate to that!

I will try my best to come over to court on Monday morning to deliver a sympathy card and a small gift package....not sure how we can arrange for others to contribute but I am open to any ideas - perhaps meet over the week-end somewhere in downtown Toronto or Toronto West end...just let me know....
 
I just cannot wrap my head around the discussions/opinions/perspectives that it hasn’t been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that MS is guilty of M1.

I won’t list all the circumstantial evidence here that pertains to MS because we are all well aware of it. It seems like a wealth of evidence to convict MS to me, if I apply the Judge’s charges so far, because I simply cannot see any evidence whatsoever that would logically explain away a single element of the evidence presented, let alone the totality of the evidence against MS. I realize that he is innocent until proven guilty. To me all the factors that the Crown has presented are the most reasonable, logical conclusion I can draw from all the evidence presented. What other reasons could there possibly/probably be for all this circumstantial evidence against MS? Coincidence ... I think not.

I must be missing something.

Thoughts?

I would feel very confident giving a M1 verdict to MS...I use my common sense and see no other logical explanation. But it DID take me a while to get there, and I can understand people viewing it as not enough evidence.

Part of the problem is that DM was such a focus during this trial. The evidence IS there for MS (IMO) but I think you have to work/think harder to get to it.

If I was a juror though, I'd be stressing those evidences and texts and work really hard at helping other jurors to see a guilty verdict IS possible with MS.

I predict a M1 for MS...but I wouldn't hold it against the jury if they can't find that way...I wouldn't say they were incorrect...just wrong :p
 
My thoughts exactly. The evidence against MS are thin. Rap, admission and incinerator photos are not enough IMO. AATF it is, as it's all after the fact.

There is this one SMS from DM to MS about "No go" because the incinerator is not ready. That's probably the main one that points to MS having prior knowledge and participating in planning. But then, it's not a statistical exercise. One evidence should be enough. Can it even be admitted against MS?

MS knew about the plan, he helped build the incinerator trailer afterall! This wasn't an "oh you killed someone? Let me help you clean it up" issue.

Enough for AATF. But viewed in isolation doesn't necessarily imply prior knowledge.

The judge specifically said time and time again that viewing the evidence as pieces was wrong, and you have to look at the whole picture.

If this is retroactive, Judge Code Might as well stop.
There would be no case without the text messages in this case and the TB case.
Could they appeal and walk on this SCoC. ruling?

This means searching a phone without a warrant. Text messages etc can still be used as evidence, just not if they take a phone and do not obtain a warrant.
 
I will try my best to come over to court on Monday morning to deliver a sympathy card and a small gift package....not sure how we can arrange for others to contribute but I am open to any ideas - perhaps meet over the week-end somewhere in downtown Toronto or Toronto West end...just let me know....
Reminds me during TB trial I was hoping to put together a WS golf team in support of the cause that SB has yearly now :) although not everyone is near T.O. It is nice to see Torontonians pull together like a small town would. :)
 
I'm still thinking about the phone ping evidence we finally got to see yesterday.:thinking:

Remember how there are those messages from CN to DM at about 10:20 pm on July 3? - the ones where she says "have fun doing big things."

I thought I should be able to see some pings on DM's phone when he received those texts, but I don't see them. Do you think maybe DM was using two phones? Or do you think the ping data is just selected data? Or am I just not looking at the right thing?

Here is a screenshot with the text messages and one with the ping data from the relevant timeframe:
View attachment 127519

It's got me scratching my head!:waitasec:

MOO

DM had an iPhone so it would switch from cellular to wifi iMessage for messaging when he was in range of his home wifi. Law enforcement retrieved many of his iMessages from his phone and from his Itunes backups.
 
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