Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[JuneBug67]

IMO, I don't think she did. When MS confessed to her that TB was "gone, gone" he also confessed that it wasn't the first time he killed and burned a body. I think that's likely when she maybe put it together, and that's what she subsequently told LE. Unfortunately, it wasn't admissible in court, for reasons I have yet to understand.

I can see how it would be prejudicial. They're not on trial for burning any body, they're on trial for burning a specific body. There is no evidence that the body MS referred to was LB's, so there would be no factual basis for a jury to associate his statement with Laura, but there is certainly a danger that they would.

 

[XFP]

CBC The National
http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/...r-at-the-laura-babcock-murder-trial-1.4445882

 

[DeaconBrodie]

I find it particularly fascinating to think about what criminal defence lawyers should do when they know their client is guilty. No matter what, the lawyer should strive to ensure their client has a fair trial. But when a lawyer knows for certain their client is guilty, how hard should they fight to sway a jury otherwise? IMHO there are some interesting ethical questions there.

Also, I don’t think a defence lawyer should ever support their client in lying. I’m not accusing TD of doing that, but there are indications that MS told lies during his testimony in the TB trial. For example, when he said DM told him the incinerator was just to burn garbage, or that nobody had ever been hurt in any of their criminal escapades prior to TB. It was argued that he could only say these things because certain evidence was inadmissible, and there were lengthy legal discussions about them without the jury in the room.

I agree with you that criminal law is a minefield of ethical issues that defence lawyers deal with on a daily basis and most people are totally unaware of.

Dealing with a couple of your points:

Defence lawyers can never 'know' that their clients are guilty.

That is something that judge must determine not the Crown or the defence. The best that they can often say is that there seems to be enough evidence that the judge will likely not have a reasonable doubt, but they don't know, because they weren't there a the requisite time.

Defence lawyers rarely believe what their clients tell them because they are always being lied to. That means that if a client says that he didn't do it, or says that he did do it, most defence lawyers look at it as just words. There are plenty of examples of false confessions out there.

If a defence lawyer isn't prepared to give everything that he or she has in order to convince a jury that he Crown has not met their burden of proof, then they should find different line of work.

 

[winter2017]

CN is named in the Bosma civil suit. If CN decides to live the remainder of her life outside of Canada, what restrictions will this have on CN if the Bosma's are successful? Can she come back for visits, etc.?

If she does not come back to Canada it could mean she will not have to pay the judgement. It would be good if she did not come back here, and if that could keep her out of this country that is a good thing.

 

[james9]

'
Unfortunately, Arthur Jennings did not divulge to Crime-Stoppers or call the police, that it was in fact TB's truck in the hangar, or where it was. Instead he ran to SS... who then tipped off DM...
AJ was a thin hair better than the others, but still of questionable character in my view.

"He said he asked Crimestoppers if it was Bosma's truck. The operator, he said, told him to call back in 45 minutes. "Yes, it is the truck," Jennings recalled the operator saying. "Please tell us where it is." He didn't. "I went in shock, walked outside and went inside my pickup truck and vomited," he said. He phoned his wife. Panic set in. So he calmed himself, returned to work and made it through the day. When he returned to work the next day, Jennings said he noticed the black pickup truck was gone. Sometime later that day, he called police and told them what he knew."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...rt-hangar-testifies-at-trial/article28553691/

 

[Tealgrove]

I suspect you learn very fast that if you want to be a successful criminal defence lawyer you need to check your ethics, morals, conscience etc. All that matters is winning - provided you keep in good standing with the bar association. If you want to contribute to the betterment of society you should be on the other side.

During the Douglas Garland trial this past year, we discussed a lot about how anyone could someone defend someone like Douglas Garland.

It all boiled down to due process and ensuring that the trial was fair. Doug Garland was guilty. There was no question. Everybody knew it and the trial was really a "thing" that had to happen because Garland pleaded NG.

Garland's lawyer knew his client was guilty. It was clear. But he made sure that all the i's were dotted and all the t's were crossed. And he did.

In Garland's case there was a lot of evidence - not circumstantial and not years later. In this case, the evidence has been largely circumstantial with the exception of a few witnesses who were able to testify about certain things. MS has been able to tell his lies, tell his story and fill in gaps with lies. Sometimes you can somewhat believe, and sometimes you can't. MS has always had some wiggle room. Garland had none and DM has none but Smich has got some.

Dungey did his job. He did what he is supposed to do. Our system allows the presumed guilty to have representation and then it's up to the Lawyer and client to decide how best to defend. Maybe Dungey believed his client was in the other vehicle when DM killed TB. Maybe he believed that his client was in his room downstairs with MM and wasn't party to LB's murder. Maybe.... In some cases, there's not much a lawyer can do other than make sure everything follows the Law.

I once wanted to be a Criminal Lawyer and then changed my mind. I didn't have the passion for the law that I felt I needed to defend criminals.

These Lawyers and Prosecuters have that passion and do what they do because of it. They have an incredible sense of right and wrong. It doesn't matter what side you are on, because there are Rights/Wrongs on both sides that need to be kept in check.

MOO

 

[clefk27]

If she does not come back to Canada it could mean she will not have to pay the judgement. It would be good if she did not come back here, and if that could keep her out of this country that is a good thing.

What a horror show it would be as a patient to find out that CN is your doctor. Imagine knowing what we know and lying in a hospital bed while Dr. CN injects something into your IV.

She could never get a job in a Canadian hospital before first passing a police check.

 

[Grey-St]

She is not the innocent person she made herself out to be. It is an act and she is good at it.
You can buy it all you want I don't at all. She is lucky that MS did not spill more about her, that is my opinion.
Maybe she is scared now to see where she could end up if she kept on the path she was going , that she could end up in prison, so she is too scared to continue on as she was.
Who knows and who cares. I could care less if she has seen the light or not. In all the photos of her with MS she looked very happy and having a good time even with the stuff she knew that he was doing, the drugs etc.
She is far , far from the innocent person she tried to portray.

I'm not "buying" anything winter2017. I work with at risk women, from my knowledge and from my own experiences, I'm entitled to my opinion. I never stated she's 100% innocent, or some angel, and she has never led a narrative that suggests that either. She kept bad company, wasn't in a good place in life, turned a blind eye to a lot of things, but she's not complicit in a murder. You're entitled to your opinion as well, but it just comes across as arbitrary. And for someone who states they could care less about MM, you've voiced your deprecating opinion of her all over the internet.

God forbid you ever make some bad decisions in your life, or take a wrong turn, or your children do, I hope people spare you their unfathomed, public opinions. Maybe give MM the same benefit you've now recently begun to give MS, considering he's the convicted murderer.

 

[JuneBug67]

"He said he asked Crimestoppers if it was Bosma's truck. The operator, he said, told him to call back in 45 minutes. "Yes, it is the truck," Jennings recalled the operator saying. "Please tell us where it is." He didn't. "I went in shock, walked outside and went inside my pickup truck and vomited," he said. He phoned his wife. Panic set in. So he calmed himself, returned to work and made it through the day. When he returned to work the next day, Jennings said he noticed the black pickup truck was gone. Sometime later that day, he called police and told them what he knew."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...rt-hangar-testifies-at-trial/article28553691/

Sometime later that day...which just happened to be the day police showed up at the hagar via the ambition tattoo. I don't think there is any particular reason to be sure he would have done the right thing without the case advancing without him. What if Tim had still been alive? Every second from the time he learned it was Tim's truck he put a stranger at theoretical risk. I do understand the pressures he would have perceived, but nobody will mistake him for a hero and he certainly could have done more, sooner.

 

[james9]

If he doesn't buy the eliminator, the steel, propane and everything else related to the Eliminator he could have practically bought Bosma's truck in cash - if that was financial motivated he needs a new accountant. MAYBE his dad was financial, the other two were clearly for the thrill of it.

Bosma's truck was just the beginning of his fantasy criminal enterprise... He thought he could turn this into a profitable business where he gets to satisfy his murderous needs while profiting from each kill. It's reprehensible.

 

[Errrr]

The bank can be court ordered to garnish her current/future wages. It's a special kind of hell that she likely deserves.

Doubt they could do that to earnings in Poland. Polish Drs licenses are extremely difficult to transfer to Canada in case she wants to come home.
I guess we know why now. They don't seem to mind doctors who don't give two pins for human life.

 

[XFP]

What a horror show it would be as a patient to find out that CN is your doctor. Imagine knowing what we know and lying in a hospital bed while Dr. CN injects something into your IV.

She could never get a job in a Canadian hospital before first passing a police check.

Maybe as a pathologist doing autopsies.

 

[Jealoushe]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2017/12/my-sweet-serial-killer-wrote-dellen-millards-girlfriend.html

I can't even.

Anyone who thinks she is innocent needs a good firm shake. She not only knew everything, she revels in it. It gets her going. She still uses her social media to try and re live the excitement.

She is pure evil, just like DM. How anyone could know about these crimes, and not tell police tells you everything you need to know about her. Had they gotten away with it, she would have been right in there with him the next time.

As for DM and his jail interview. I'm disgusted they give him attention. He doesn't believe he is innocent, he believes if he plays this role forever he may some day get out. He is nothing but a fool.

 

[Grey-St]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2017/12/my-sweet-serial-killer-wrote-dellen-millards-girlfriend.html

I can't even.

Anyone who thinks she is innocent needs a good firm shake. She not only knew everything, she revels in it. It gets her going. She still uses her social media to try and re live the excitement.

She is pure evil, just like DM. How anyone could know about these crimes, and not tell police tells you everything you need to know about her. Had they gotten away with it, she would have been right in there with him the next time.

As for DM and his jail interview. I'm disgusted they give him attention. He doesn't believe he is innocent, he believes if he plays this role forever he may some day get out. He is nothing but a fool.

It's as if they forget Laura Babcock isn't available for comment.

 

[dar107]

I'm not "buying" anything winter2017. I work with at risk women, from my knowledge and from my own experiences, I'm entitled to my opinion. I never stated she's 100% innocent, or some angel, and she has never led a narrative that suggests that either. She kept bad company, wasn't in a good place in life, turned a blind eye to a lot of things, but she's not complicit in a murder. You're entitled to your opinion as well, but it just comes across as arbitrary. And for someone who states they could care less about MM, you've voiced your deprecating opinion of her all over the internet.

God forbid you ever make some bad decisions in your life, or take a wrong turn, or your children do, I hope people spare you their unfathomed, public opinions. Maybe give MM the same benefit you've now recently begun to give MS, considering he's the convicted murderer.

RBBM

Slightly off topic, sorry. 1st off I agree with you on your view of MM, and knowing your line of work I feel your opinion is an educated one, as I have family members who were lured into "the game" I completely understand how young girls with family issues and separation can be easily manipulated into situations and are starved for love and approval, and end up finding what they think is "love" in all the wrong places. Although I think MM made some serious mistakes, I believe she has true remorse, fessed up to what she did know and apparently has made an effort to turn her life around.

2ndly... I just want to personally thank-you for the work you do with these victims! I know from personal experience just how hard and frustrating that would be (and rewarding no doubt when you see a trafficked person get out of that situation!)

 

[DeaconBrodie]

One can never be faulted for having compassion for our fellow man (or woman).

 

[Grey-St]

RBBM

Slightly off topic, sorry. 1st off I agree with you on your view of MM, and knowing your line of work I feel your opinion is an educated one, as I have family members who were lured into "the game" I completely understand how young girls with family issues and separation can be easily manipulated into situations and are starved for love and approval, and end up finding what they think is "love" in all the wrong places. Although I think MM made some serious mistakes, I believe she has true remorse, fessed up to what she did know and apparently has made an effort to turn her life around.

2ndly... I just want to personally thank-you for the work you do with these victims! I know from personal experience just how hard and frustrating that would be (and rewarding no doubt when you see a trafficked person get out of that situation!)

Thank you, dar107! You have no idea how appreciative I am to hear that. You truly have made my day! :loveyou:
ETA: I sincerely hope your family members are doing well today, and that healing has begun.

 

[redheart]

Lisa Hepfner‏
@HefCHCHNews
The #LauraBabcock jury will be given options for the closing arguments they asked for. If they want to listen to them, it will take 8 hours (Millard 4, Dungey 2, Cameron 2 hrs) or they can wait until tomorrow noon when transcriptions can be available.


Jury coming now. #LauraBabcock

 

[redheart]

Shannon Martin‏
@ShannonMartinTV

The jury at the Laura Babcock trial is now in the courtroom. Code says he's providing them an index to his 338-page charge, to help them navigate the sections.
#LauraBabcock


As for their request to get a transcript of all three closing addresses, Code says there is some case law surrounding this. He tells them the court does not have transcripts immediately available. They can be ready by noon Thursday. #LauraBabcock

 

[redheart]

Lisa Hepfner‏
@HefCHCHNews

In the interim, Code reminds the jury that his 20-page heading "X" gives them a summary of the three closings. Otherwise they can come back into court and listen to the audio recordings of the three closings. #LauraBabcock