Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

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And if so, why should he have that option???
Completely my line of thinking! He shouldn't have a choice IMO. He should be summoned and obligated to hear his sentencing from the Judge for the heinous acts he's committed.
 
Completely my line of thinking! He shouldn't have a choice IMO. He should be summoned and obligated to hear his sentencing from the Judge for the heinous acts he's committed.

I agree. He probably wants to avoid the tongue-lashing Justice Code has prepared for him.
 
I agree. He probably wants to avoid the tongue-lashing Justice Code has prepared for him.

I expect that he wants to avoid the humiliation of being a loser, especially in front of LB's parents.
 
Completely my line of thinking! He shouldn't have a choice IMO. He should be summoned and obligated to hear his sentencing from the Judge for the heinous acts he's committed.

Does he really have this choice? It is utterly ridiculous to me that he should have that option! He’s under the control of the correctional system, I’m quite sure he doesn’t have anywhere else to be....I don’t understand why they wouldn’t force him to be there. It seems to me that should be every bit as mandatory as his sentence will be.
 
[FONT=&amp]Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV 15m15 minutes ago
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]#LauraBabcock murder trial update: Feb. 12, 2018 set for sentencing hearing for Dellen Millard and Mark Smich. Millard has retained lawyer Ravin Pillay, who you'll remember from the Bosma trial, to represent him through this process.


Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV 16m16 minutes ago
Smich's lawyer, Thomas Dungey, plans to challenge a possible consecutive sentence for his client. The hearing is expected to take at least two days. #LauraBabcock




[/FONT]
 
I believe Judge Code said he had to bring an application if he did not want to attend the sentencing. I doubt very much that any such application would be granted.
 
I expect that he wants to avoid the humiliation of being a loser, especially in front of LB's parents.

Yes...this and it serves as a gesture of contempt for this body and all its representatives and participants that wouldn't bend to his will - not an experience he is used to.
 
[FONT=&]Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV 15m15 minutes ago
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]#LauraBabcock murder trial update: Feb. 12, 2018 set for sentencing hearing for Dellen Millard and Mark Smich. Millard has retained lawyer Ravin Pillay, who you'll remember from the Bosma trial, to represent him through this process.


Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV 16m16 minutes ago
Smich's lawyer, Thomas Dungey, plans to challenge a possible consecutive sentence for his client. The hearing is expected to take at least two days. #LauraBabcock




[/FONT]

When Dungey asked for the delay because of legal aid I suspect it was not out of greed but because he will need to pay research assistants to build a case for Smich. It's probably not the kind of case where a lawyer is going to be motivated to use his own funds to defend his client, but most defense lawyers are committed to their jobs enough to want to do the best they can.
 
For some reason, I'm under the impression that DM wished to be absent from the sentencing. Is this accurate?

IIRC, DM did want to be absent from his sentencing. Justice Code strongly tried to convince him otherwise, and then told him that if that was still what he wanted that DM would have to submit an application, which I am assuming (only my opinion) could be either accepted or rejected by Justice Code.


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I’m not sure how the contention that Smich is criminal but not psychopathic has been warped into the idea that he is “an innocent dupe” or special target for sympathy. Pointing out that these two different criminals are - wait for it - different criminals, is pretty self evident IMO.

It is an extremely common dynamic for criminal pairs to be made up of a psychopathic and a non-psychopathic person. Bernardo (scored 35 on the PCL-R with 30 required for diagnoses) and Homolka (scored 5, twice, 10 years apart via different assesors - a normal score) for example. Or Eric Harris (diagnosed as a psychopath) and Dylan Klebold (diagnosed differently).

This makes sense on statistics alone as psychopathy occurs at an extremely low rate of 1-3 % of the population. If you’re seeing psychopaths crawling out of the woodwork in this case from two relatively small overlapping friend groups in suburban Toronto, you might need to reassess. The reality is that when psychopaths do team up it’s usually because they meet in prison where the population of psychopaths is much higher statistically. Think Norris/Bittaker or Lucas/Toole.

What typically happens outside of prison is exactly what we see happened in this case – a psychopathic person co-opts people from the other 97-99% of the world to his or her needs and desires through efficient targeting of moral and psychological weakness and ruthless manipulation. Women like Homolka and the two teenaged accomplices in the case Inspector North mentioned yesterday don’t start out with an independent and burning desire to facilitate the rape of children for their boyfriends. They’re moved there in degrees. It’s Millard here who ends up with trucks, Bobcats, cement polishers, a murdered ex lover, being the master of “loot” distribution, on and on – and Smich who is at times literally begging for change for food(!) as he patiently waits for his music studio and rap album and to “take this world” with Dellen Millard.

Honestly, you couldn’t have the contrast between psychopathy and non-psychopathy more gift wrapped and tied up with a bow that we have with the ability to observe and contrast these two defendants.

In contrast to Millard, Smich has a normal emotional baseline - he gets emotional talking about family and friends, according to Adam Carter he got emotional and searching looking at MM in the first trial, he has exhibited situationally appropriate fear and nervousness at various points, and the presence of his family in court demonstrates a typical familial bond. DM? An uncle angry at him to the point of irrationality, no family in court, and not a single shred of evidence of a real bond with anyone.

On impulsivity and judgement: Smich has a clear ability to control himself in court and take legal advice, sitting stone still much of time, even through DM’s constant staring and goading in the first trial. DM meanwhile is waving at witnesses, spinning around to look at the gallery, making various obvious noises and faces and presumably ignoring all legal advice in choosing to represent himself in a murder trial. He is utterly clueless about what he has done when he blames Laura’s parents in his closing. Clueless.

On lying and manipulation: a lot of criminals lie in an attempt to avoid prison, both on and off the stand. That’s what Smich did, and it’s pretty standard stuff. With DM it’s a whole other level of treating people in his entire life like chess pieces. Running them up to their faces and down to others to achieve emotional and psychological power over whoever was in front of him at the moment. The extreme manipulation on multiple fronts observable in his letters to Christina. Smich gave an utterly normal interview to a reporter (where he again welled up speaking about family and friends) while DM was busy taking about the moon, philosophy and the “preciousness” of a visit from media. Ugh level grandiosity and manipulation. Having done a ton of reading about the disorder over the years, it’s that early interview that had me say to myself for the first time in this case “this guy is a psychopath”.

In their lives before arrest Smich was a boilerplate dropout, lazy, sleep until 3 pm, drug slinging, graffiti scribbling, **** and rapper wannabe. DM on the other hand had a classic psychopath profile of multiple things started and not finished, being kicked out of school for cheating, proneness to boredom and constant need for stimulation – often high risk, impulsive and careless behaviour that saw enormous amounts of money disappear - the Baha Jeep, the excavator in a swamp.

It’s all THIS stuff that is the bones of psychopathy, not just the ruthless criminal behaviour shared by both defendants.

And finally, have you noticed how many people have talked about Millard’s eyes or gaze? That is psychopathy 101. A fixed, cold or predatory stare is a favourite tool and unwitting giveaway. It was noted in AC’s excellent ‘Wayward Son’ article, and recently noted here in an anecdote from a guard who talked about the disturbing nature of Millard’s eye contact. We know that not once, but twice, he stared down victims in this case after verdicts were delivered. And Millard himself talked about using his stare in a perceived power struggle with a prison worker in the letters. If anybody is talking about the “Smich stare” I’ve certainly missed it.

I could probably go on for another 8 paragraphs – the difference between these two is that obvious and well evidenced to me – but this is already too long. The PCL-R is scored out of 40 and there is a lot of real estate between a normal score in the low single digits and 30 where psychopathy is diagnosed. Smich no doubt would have a score more elevated than most of us, but it’s not a matter of both of these men being psychopathic with Millard perhaps being a bit more psychopathic. Psychopathy is by definition an extreme personality structure, and a rare one. If you are a psychopath your behaviour is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Dellen Millard is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Mark Smich participated in horrible, ruthless crimes. There is a difference.
This has got to be one of my all-time favourite posts here. Well done JuneBug.
 
I’m not sure how the contention that Smich is criminal but not psychopathic has been warped into the idea that he is “an innocent dupe” or special target for sympathy. Pointing out that these two different criminals are - wait for it - different criminals, is pretty self evident IMO.

It is an extremely common dynamic for criminal pairs to be made up of a psychopathic and a non-psychopathic person. Bernardo (scored 35 on the PCL-R with 30 required for diagnoses) and Homolka (scored 5, twice, 10 years apart via different assesors - a normal score) for example. Or Eric Harris (diagnosed as a psychopath) and Dylan Klebold (diagnosed differently).

This makes sense on statistics alone as psychopathy occurs at an extremely low rate of 1-3 % of the population. If you’re seeing psychopaths crawling out of the woodwork in this case from two relatively small overlapping friend groups in suburban Toronto, you might need to reassess. The reality is that when psychopaths do team up it’s usually because they meet in prison where the population of psychopaths is much higher statistically. Think Norris/Bittaker or Lucas/Toole.

What typically happens outside of prison is exactly what we see happened in this case – a psychopathic person co-opts people from the other 97-99% of the world to his or her needs and desires through efficient targeting of moral and psychological weakness and ruthless manipulation. Women like Homolka and the two teenaged accomplices in the case Inspector North mentioned yesterday don’t start out with an independent and burning desire to facilitate the rape of children for their boyfriends. They’re moved there in degrees. It’s Millard here who ends up with trucks, Bobcats, cement polishers, a murdered ex lover, being the master of “loot” distribution, on and on – and Smich who is at times literally begging for change for food(!) as he patiently waits for his music studio and rap album and to “take this world” with Dellen Millard.

Honestly, you couldn’t have the contrast between psychopathy and non-psychopathy more gift wrapped and tied up with a bow that we have with the ability to observe and contrast these two defendants.

In contrast to Millard, Smich has a normal emotional baseline - he gets emotional talking about family and friends, according to Adam Carter he got emotional and searching looking at MM in the first trial, he has exhibited situationally appropriate fear and nervousness at various points, and the presence of his family in court demonstrates a typical familial bond. DM? An uncle angry at him to the point of irrationality, no family in court, and not a single shred of evidence of a real bond with anyone.

On impulsivity and judgement: Smich has a clear ability to control himself in court and take legal advice, sitting stone still much of time, even through DM’s constant staring and goading in the first trial. DM meanwhile is waving at witnesses, spinning around to look at the gallery, making various obvious noises and faces and presumably ignoring all legal advice in choosing to represent himself in a murder trial. He is utterly clueless about what he has done when he blames Laura’s parents in his closing. Clueless.

On lying and manipulation: a lot of criminals lie in an attempt to avoid prison, both on and off the stand. That’s what Smich did, and it’s pretty standard stuff. With DM it’s a whole other level of treating people in his entire life like chess pieces. Running them up to their faces and down to others to achieve emotional and psychological power over whoever was in front of him at the moment. The extreme manipulation on multiple fronts observable in his letters to Christina. Smich gave an utterly normal interview to a reporter (where he again welled up speaking about family and friends) while DM was busy taking about the moon, philosophy and the “preciousness” of a visit from media. Ugh level grandiosity and manipulation. Having done a ton of reading about the disorder over the years, it’s that early interview that had me say to myself for the first time in this case “this guy is a psychopath”.

In their lives before arrest Smich was a boilerplate dropout, lazy, sleep until 3 pm, drug slinging, graffiti scribbling, **** and rapper wannabe. DM on the other hand had a classic psychopath profile of multiple things started and not finished, being kicked out of school for cheating, proneness to boredom and constant need for stimulation – often high risk, impulsive and careless behaviour that saw enormous amounts of money disappear - the Baha Jeep, the excavator in a swamp.

It’s all THIS stuff that is the bones of psychopathy, not just the ruthless criminal behaviour shared by both defendants.

And finally, have you noticed how many people have talked about Millard’s eyes or gaze? That is psychopathy 101. A fixed, cold or predatory stare is a favourite tool and unwitting giveaway. It was noted in AC’s excellent ‘Wayward Son’ article, and recently noted here in an anecdote from a guard who talked about the disturbing nature of Millard’s eye contact. We know that not once, but twice, he stared down victims in this case after verdicts were delivered. And Millard himself talked about using his stare in a perceived power struggle with a prison worker in the letters. If anybody is talking about the “Smich stare” I’ve certainly missed it.

I could probably go on for another 8 paragraphs – the difference between these two is that obvious and well evidenced to me – but this is already too long. The PCL-R is scored out of 40 and there is a lot of real estate between a normal score in the low single digits and 30 where psychopathy is diagnosed. Smich no doubt would have a score more elevated than most of us, but it’s not a matter of both of these men being psychopathic with Millard perhaps being a bit more psychopathic. Psychopathy is by definition an extreme personality structure, and a rare one. If you are a psychopath your behaviour is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Dellen Millard is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Mark Smich participated in horrible, ruthless crimes. There is a difference.

Thank you for pointing this out, JuneBug. I have utmost respect for the wonderful well-considered insight that you kindly share with us.

Yes, there is a difference in levels/ratings or whatever they are called when gauging psychopathy. But to me the bottom line is that they both committed the exact same horrifically vile acts, seemed to enjoy what they were doing, did it at least two times that we are aware of, and each had a mind of their own. They both chose, without a 2nd thought, to take two dear souls’ lives away, regardless of what their ratings would in the PCL-R.

I cannot see how their different levels of psychopathy should engender any feeling that one is “more humane” than the other. What does it matter? Sadly and tragically each as individuals blessed with capable minds of their own, chose to end dear people’s lives to satisfy their own sick kicks and take nothing but glee from their atrocious acts. And neither show remorse.


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[FONT=&amp][14] [/FONT][FONT=&amp]According to Mr. Fraser, contrary to the defence position, the most significant text message sought to be introduced by the Crown to advance an available inference for the jury that there was evidence of joint planning and deliberation in July, 2012 (and even further back as shown by the gun and ammunition purchase and “nab a 3500”). The July 9, 2012 text message reads:
[/FONT]

“BBQ is the last piece of the 3500 puzzle. July mission” - Millard

“I like BBQ”
- Smich

“And I like 3500” - Smich

[15] The Crown says that counsel for Millard introduced in the cross-examination of Meneses and Daly that Smich told both these persons, “I ****ed up…..I ****ed up”. By contrast, counsel for Smich established in the cross-examination of Meneses that “Dell did everything…Dell murdered him…” and Smich was “just there”. On either version there is an assertion of the absence of joint planning and deliberation.

From this document:
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=9
 
Thank you for pointing this out, JuneBug ... yes, there is a difference in levels/ratings or whatever they are called when gauging psychopathy. But to me the bottom line is that they both committed the exact same horrifically vile acts, seemed to enjoy what they were doing, did it at least two times that we are aware of, and each had a mind of their own. They both chose, without a 2nd thought, to take two dear souls’ lives away, regardless of what their ratings would in the PCL-R.

I cannot see how their different levels of psychopathy should engender any feeling that one is “more humane” than the other. What does it matter? Sadly and tragically each as individuals blessed with capable minds of their own chose to end dear people’s lives to satisfy their own sick kicks. And neither show remorse.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It matters to prospects for rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is a goal of the Canadian justice system.

A few disparate lines from this link:



An offender's "positive potential for rehabilitation" should be to the benefit of the accused on sentence.

In a situation of co-accused, the roles of the parties will be considered as well as their personal circumstances. [11]

The principle of parity does not require equal sentences for participants in the same offence. Rather, they must "only [be] understandable sentences when examined together."[12]
 
Sorry...it won't take my link! Those interested can copy and paste this manually hopefully:

en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Sentencing/Purpose_and_Principles_of_Sentencing#Rehabilitation_-_s.718(d)
 
Does he really have this choice? It is utterly ridiculous to me that he should have that option! He’s under the control of the correctional system, I’m quite sure he doesn’t have anywhere else to be....I don’t understand why they wouldn’t force him to be there. It seems to me that should be every bit as mandatory as his sentence will be.
Are the families of the victim at sentencing allowed to give a victim impact statement.? DM I am sure does not want to be confronted by the families of the impact his actions had. It is there chance to get to say something to his face.
 
*Respectfully snipped

It is an extremely common dynamic for criminal pairs to be made up of a psychopathic and a non-psychopathic person. Bernardo (scored 35 on the PCL-R with 30 required for diagnoses) and Homolka (scored 5, twice, 10 years apart via different assesors - a normal score) for example.

Hi JuneBug67

I remember the video (I believe W5) when Karla was brought back to the house, and she was only concerned with her material "stuff". She sure came across as someone with at least a sociopath behavour IMO. I'm not sure about how accurate scores like PCL-R or even an IQ test, IMO. if Karla was not a psychopathic person, she was a sociopath IMO. There is a lot of grey when it comes to psychopathic person, and IQ.

I know there has been a lot of progress in the field of psychiatry, but the story of serial killer Edmund_Kemper made my blood run cold when he told the story about killing two women, and putting their heads in the trunk of his car. Then goes to his psychiatric evaluation, only to fool the psychiatrists to lift his restriction to own a weapon. He bragged about how he fooled them.

Are we being fooled by MS, or Karla?

"It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care."
 

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