Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[paris_paris]

Not sure exactly what he said, but being the businessman that he is, I doubt that foul language was the issue. The rules for a victim impact statement seem pretty well defined in that you can only express how the crime affected you. I'm guessing that SL stepped way outside those parameters.

If I remember correctly, Rodney Stafford was given the option to re-write his statement and he did. I wonder if SL's statement made reference to his thoughts about TPS.

 

[musicaljoke]

100% with Cameron here. How is this even an issue? It's too bad the legislation doesn't make the sentence automatic consecutive with the finding of 1st degree murder. Then maybe let them (Smich and Millard) argue about why they shouldn't. It does almost seem as though Code has some disagreement with what the jury found. Wasn't this relatively new legislation brought in because public was sick of the do one murder, get one free result of concurrent sentencing? Why is Justice Code trying to circumvent this?

It might be just "court speak", to show on the record that Justice Code considered both concurrent and consecutive sentences, and didn't jump to his answer without thought. Sentencing is something that can be appealed, so he may just be covering the details. ... I hope.

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay refers to the Bosma trial as a "lengthy, antagonistic trial." He says there's no way of determining what the jury decided in that case as to who fired the gun that killed Tim Bosma. The jury was told in that case that they didn't need to make that decision.
by Adam Carter 12:54 PM

Pillay says it's impossible to go through all the minutiae from all the testimony in the Bosma case.
by Adam Carter 12:58 PM

Pillay says the Crown is also "selectively" placing before the court items of evidence.
by Adam Carter 12:58 PM

Pillay is arguing that the sentencing here should focus on the current offence, and not on any prior offences.
by Adam Carter 1:00 PM

The fact that the jury found that Bosma was shot and killed and that it was deliberate is the only thing that could possibly considered here, Pillay says. And that has to be "carefully circumscribed," he says.
by Adam Carter 1:02 PM

Justice Code says what is relevant here is we have two murders that are 10 months apart, and are "factually intertwined by the use of the incinerator."
by Adam Carter 1:03 PM

 

[Kamille]

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
13m13 minutes ago
Parsing the letter of the law. Offence or offences? Pillay says this court can't even consider consecutive sentences. "Not just consequence of wording of section," he says

Says judge can't determine facts at a prior trial, ie the Bosma trial

Pillay going over competing theories at Bosma trial including evidence Smich shot Tim Bosma

Pillay's argument is essentially that Code can't give consecutive sentences because he wasn't Bosma trial judge. Calls Crown's presentation of Bosma evidence "selective" and "dangerous"

Says Smich's contention that Bosma trial showed Millard led many people into crime is "completely improper."

Code is having a bit of a coughing fit

Nothing to do with what Pillay is saying. He's had a bad cold

"Where there's any ambiguity (statute) has to be interpreted in charter friendly way," says Pillay, adding, "not that there's any ambiguity."

Bosma evidence can only be considered vis a vis character, says Pillay

"This limited consideration must be carefully circumscribed," says Pillay. "I'm nowhere near knowing what I'm going to do," says judge

 

[chaines]

Millard's lawyer Ravin Pillay is now giving his submissions on sentencing.
by Adam Carter 12:43 PM

Pillay is arguing that Millard should serve his sentences concurrently, as opposed to the consecutive sentences the Crown is seeking. "Such a sentence is unduly harsh, and is not necessary in this case," Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 12:44 PM

Pillay says "It is in society's interest to not definitively close the door on that possibility [of parole after 25 years], and to not crush whatever hope an offender may have to one day be released."
by Adam Carter 12:46 PM

Pillay is now arguing that the facts of the Bosma case should not be considered in sentencing here.
by Adam Carter 12:47 PM

To clarify -- Pillay is arguing that an offender's hope of release shouldn't be "crushed," because that possibility is an incentive for rehabilitation.
by Adam Carter 12:49 PM

Personally I couldn't care less if the offenders hope of release is crushed, because the hope of the Bosma and Babcock family to have a happy life has already been crushed.

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews
4m4 minutes ago
Cameron made a powerful point with the 3500 text, judge says. “As soon as they did one murder they were planning the next.” The problem, says #Millard’s lawyer, is that the text was not allowed at trial.

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
3m3 minutes ago
The infamous July 9 BBQ, 3500 puzzle text message comes up again. Pillay says because it never went before Bosma jury, it can't be used. "We don't know what it means," he says

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews
2m2 minutes ago
Pillay says crown is piecemealing the evidence & asking judge to make a judgement about the #Bosma trial. “I object that you can consider that at all,” says Pillay of the text about the incinerator being “the last piece of the 3500 puzzle.”

 

[Kamille]

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
2m2 minutes ago

Are you saying the evidence is not properly before me at this sentencing hearing or that I ought not to make findings of fact re Bsoma case, asks judge

"I don't think you can make any findings of fact based on evidence from the Bosma case, period," says Pillay. July 9 text message is really a finding about the Bosma murder, he adds.

Ironic, because Goodman excluded text on grounds it was related to Babcock murder not Bosma murder

 

[canadiangirl]

Justice Code sounds very on the fence re: Smich. I find that interesting. Remember when us fence sitters were also on the fence? Lol guess we weren't so crazy after all. MOO

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

 

[chaines]

Pillay is arguing that the sentencing here should focus on the current offence, and not on any prior offences.
by Adam Carter 1:00 PM

Ok fine, since the offences are separate, let the sentences be separate. I am going to be furious at our justice system if they don't get consecutive

 

[musicaljoke]

I watched the Larry Nassar victim impact statements. They are much different in the US. Lots of hatred there. And rightfully so. MOO

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

Wanting someone to go to prison for a long time, because "I hate the guy" isn't allowed, and understandably so because we want the justice system to be just, from beginning to end, and hating a person isn't just cause for a lengthy prison sentence. It's not the same when the Babcocks express that they were not hateful people, but the two monsters taught them what it was to hate. The Babcocks expressed it as a victim impact, in that their beautiful human love and benevolence in life was destroyed forever.

 

[chaines]

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews
4m4 minutes ago

This was not a murderous rampage, this was two separately planned murders. Justice for Laura #Babcock demands a consecutive sentence, otherwise why bother with her trial, crown says.

EXACTLY. and also the reason behind the revised sentencing legislation ! Please don't screw this up Justice Code

 

[andreww]

If I remember correctly, Rodney Stafford was given the option to re-write his statement and he did. I wonder if SL's statement made reference to his thoughts about TPS.

Possibly. That would obviously be out of bounds.

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay is saying the Crown pulled out "one text message" in an "ocean of evidence" to prove its point without evidence. He's referring to the "3500 mission" and "I like BBQ" texts.
by Adam Carter 1:06 PM

"Evidence from the Bosma case ought not to be included," Pillay says, adding that he doesn't believe that the judge can make findings of fact based upon that evidence.
by Adam Carter 1:09 PM

"The difficulty with that whole argument Mr. Pillay ... is the July 9 text is getting all tied up with the Babcock murder," Code says. He's referring to the 3500 and I like bbq texts again. They were excluded from the Bosma case because it happened five days after Babcock's death. "The reality is it looks like the two are coming together."
by Adam Carter 1:16 PM

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner@HefCHCHNews
12s13 seconds ago
Judge notes the 3500 text message was withheld from #Bosma trial because it was too close to the #Babcock murder, and now Pillay wants it removed from #Babcock sentencing because it’s too specifically about #Bosma murder.

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
3m3 minutes ago
Judge noting irony of July 9th text. Excluded from Bosma trial as too much Babcock. Now Pillay wants it excluded here because it's too much Bosma

 

[Kamille]

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
54s55 seconds ago
Pillay now discussing other texts re "broader criminal conspiracy." Some relate to firearms trafficking

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
1m1 minute ago
Unfortunately, we don't see texts he's now referring to as they're not on screens

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
25s25 seconds ago
Pillay saying if texts weren't before jury, it's questionable whether they should be considered now

 

[Kamille]

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
now26 seconds ago
"There was something more going on here. There was a larger conspiracy," says Code of the texts, most of which he excluded

As most of us have suspected all along. Too bad we don't get to see those texts.

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay is now zeroing in on text messages the Crown has submitted about weapons trafficking, "broader criminal conspiracy," and how Millard and Smich treated women. Pillay is arguing that if they are to be considered, they would have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
by Adam Carter 1:19 PM

He is also saying that because he wasn't a lawyer for the trial, he isn't sure what messages were presented before the jury and what weren't. Pillay says those that were included before the jury could be considered. He's taking issue with new ones being introduced here. "We're dealing with snippets of a conversation taken without proper context," Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 1:21 PM

"There is something more going on here. There was a larger conspiracy going on," Code says, about Millard and Smich's conduct, dealing with the theory of "criminal conspiracy."
by Adam Carter 1:25 PM

"It's relevant to your client's character," Code says. "The fact that there was some kind of broader criminal conspiracy going on that I can't pin down seems to be relevant to his character."
by Adam Carter 1:26 PM

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It's always been a fine line with Victim Impact Statements. Most people would like to see them used as a vehicle for the victims to tell the convicted person just what they think of them and what they did. To release the anger that they feel towards the person who hurt them so badly. The law does not allow for this however, it only allows for the victim to express how the crime affected them and to express their extreme sadness and loss.

Personally, while I don't think they should be used to hurl insults and abuse at a convicted person who has no choice but to sit and listen, they should allow for some measure of anger towards the convicted criminal to be expressed, within reason. In some cases, the VIS as they stand now just give the convicted criminal more pleasure IMO.

MOO

I understand the rules, that is why I was so shocked to see the Olympic young women speak it Larry nassar's sentencing. It was something I had never seen before.

So cathartic for everyone

 

[andreww]

Ok fine, since the offences are separate, let the sentences be separate. I am going to be furious at our justice system if they don't get consecutive

I think the outcome here will depend a lot on the judge's view on what the prison system is there for. You and I see it as punishment, thus we favour consecutive sentences. The judge likely feels that prison is for rehabilitation. If he honestly feels that and is committed to that ideology, then 50 years would likely seem counterproductive to him. I think he has already pegged Millard as the instigator here. The truck was for Millard, getting rid of Babcock was to solve Millard's GF problems. Smich, in all likelihood, would never have become a killer if he wasn't groomed for it by Millard. Millard on the other hand probably would have, because lets face it, Dell does what Dell wants. I don't think the judge is under any illusions that Millard will ever be rehabilitated. He killed his own father FFS.

 

[Kamille]

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
3m3 minutes ago
"The extent of his dangerousness is very much tied up with his character," says Code.

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
2m2 minutes ago
Code says the conspiracy he can't pin down is likely related to Millard's character. Getting very hard to understand judge due to his cold

Ann Brocklehurst@AnnB03
16s17 seconds ago
Your contention is exact nature, scope of broader conspiracy has never been proven and therefore limits how I can use it regarding Millard's character, Code asks Pillay. That's right, Pillay answers

None of this makes sense. If I understand correctly, Pillay is saying that there was a large overall conspiracy to commit murder and mayhem and therefore it's all intertwined? Is that what he's trying to say? Because he's probably right with regards to TB's murder and future murders that thankfully were thwarted. But LB's murder still stands alone IMO so there is really no argument...I think? :waitasec:

MOO

ETA: On second thought, it looks like Pillay is just trying to get texts that show bad character on the part of his client omitted.