Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[clefk27]

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread the way I would have liked, but could you enlighten me as to how 'it sounded like MS participated in the killing'? Just curious, because in the sections that I was able to keep up with, I didn't see anything to indicate his participation in the murder.

Admittedly all circumstantial. MS was at the house evening of July 3. The text from DM after picking up LB: “Don’t be out front” so MS was likely in on the plan. The absence of texts between DM and MS for 4 hrs while murder allegedly took place.
Truth is no one is certain MS participated. It just sounds plausible.

 

[ABro]

Admittedly all circumstantial. MS was at the house evening of July 3. The text from DM after picking up LB: “Don’t be out front” so MS was likely in on the plan. The absence of texts between DM and MS for 4 hrs while murder allegedly took place.
Truth is no one is certain MS participated. It just sounds plausible.

Truth is the jury was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Smich was guilty of first degree murder. That's way more than "it just sounds plausible." IN fact if they just thought, "yeah it kind of fits, guess he did it," the law requires them to find him not guilty. This was spelled out in the judge's instructions.

Truth is the judge was also convinced, which is why he gave Smich a consecutive sentence.

Truth is circumstantial evidence is no less valid than direct evidence.

 

[winter2017]

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread the way I would have liked, but could you enlighten me as to how 'it sounded like MS participated in the killing'? Just curious, because in the sections that I was able to keep up with, I didn't see anything to indicate his participation in the murder.

The crown were able to show that MS and DM suddenly stopped sending any texts once Laura arrived at WM 's home. They said that the reason was because DM and MS were together while putting the plan to murder Laura into action. It was many hours they did not send texts and up to DM arriving at the house with Laura they had been texting. when you look at all the evidence before and after it is reasonable to assume MS was very involved in helping murder Laura.

 

[winter2017]

Truth is the jury was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Smich was guilty of first degree murder. That's way more than "it just sounds plausible."

Truth is the judge was also convinced, which is why he gave Smich a consecutive sentence.

Truth is circumstantial evidence is no less valid than direct evidence.

The crown showed that MS and DM suddenly stopped sending any texts once Laura arrived at WM 's home. They said that the reason was because DM and MS were together while putting the plan to murder Laura into action. It was many hours they did not send texts and up to DM arriving at the house with Laura they had been texting. when you look at all the evidence before and after it is reasonable to assume MS was very involved in helping murder Laura.

 

[Grey-St]

Oh Karla has been called a psychopath alright! By lots and lots and lots of people! It doesn’t make her one, and that it doesn’t make her one doesn’t mean she caused any less pain, grief and destruction than she did.

She had the PCL-R administered to her twice in prison, once close to the beginning of her incarceration and once close to the end. The test was administered by two different clinicians and she received the same low score of five in both instances. When the state was trying to impose extraordinary conditions on her release they secured the view of another doctor that said she was a psychopath, but the judge disregarded that evidence because that doctor formed the opinion without seeing her or interviewing her in person.

We can tend to use the term psychopath as shorthand for anybody that does terrible things seemingly without conscience. But psychopathy is not just that, it is a constellation of things that almost always exist together and have to be present in specific qualitative and quantitative ways. It’s not situational and is persistent over time. That’s why Millard and Bernardo still act like like morally blind lunatics 5 and 17 years after their crimes respectively.

I know the Homolka case really well, and I’d bet my life savings that psychopathy was not her problem.

I don't know the case in the depth that you do, I was only old enough at the time to be aware of what happened, but I would bet my life savings that a true psychopath or sociopath could "pass" those tests with flying colours. They manipulate everyone and everything around them, clinicians included.

 

[peedoffinny]

The crown were able to show that MS and DM suddenly stopped sending any texts once Laura arrived at WM 's home. They said that the reason was because DM and MS were together while putting the plan to murder Laura into action. It was many hours they did not send texts and up to DM arriving at the house with Laura they had been texting. when you look at all the evidence before and after it is reasonable to assume MS was very involved in helping murder Laura.

I really believe they both sexually assaulted Laura before the murder. I would love to wrong, but i dont think I am. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

 

[Maple1]

Would someone post the link to the Smitch family letters written in his behalf for sentencing. Tried to google with no luck and must of missed in the previous posts.
Thanks in advance.

 

[redwing7225]

Would someone post the link to the Smitch family letters written in his behalf for sentencing. Tried to google with no luck and must of missed in the previous posts.
Thanks in advance.

https://youtu.be/2i5mKZorG88

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Forest_Wood]

https://youtu.be/2i5mKZorG88

It’s interesting to read the letter from Mark’s family, where they refer to his childhood being marred with abuse. If his father was not in his life, then who was the abuser. There’s lots of blame in those letters (the father, Millard, the school system, the community, those around him). At the same time, they speak of his remorse and seem to accept his guilt.

 

[winter2017]

https://youtu.be/2i5mKZorG88

It’s interesting to read the letter from Mark’s family, where they refer to his childhood being marred with abuse. If his father was not in his life, then who was the abuser. There’s lots of blame in those letters (the father, Millard, the school system, the community, those around him). At the same time, they speak of his remorse and seem to accept his guilt.

Just like DM s mother blamed it all on other things that DM became a murderer. MS lived in a good neighbourhood in Oakville. Many of the families are professionals and kids go to private schools. I think he knew the gun dealer when he lived in Mississauga and he kept friends with him. Probably the gun dealer sold drugs also.
he was troubled before he moved to Oakville since he was good friends with a gun dealer.
They try to depict him as a doing very minor things to break the law, but he was going around to high school selling cigarettes and probably dealing drugs.
He was already in trouble before he met DM and even without DM I believe he would have got into more serious criminal things.
His father had a history of violence to the mother and daughter. I guess the traits were passed onto to MS.
MS made the choices he did and there is no one to blame but him.

 

[ABro]

His father had a history of violence to the mother and daughter. I guess the traits were passed onto to MS.
MS made the choices he did and there is no one to blame but him.

There's zero proof the father had a history of violent abuse. It's something Dungey said in court. There's nothing to back it up in any of the letters. What lawyers say is not evidence.

Also, as mentioned by Forest_Wood above, the father was supposedly not in Smich's life so it's reasonable to ask who abused Smich if the father wasn't around.

I personally believe both Smich and MIllard experienced serious abuse as children, which is not in any way an excuse for their crimes. Many people who are abused do not go on to murder others for thrills. But serial killers almost always come from situations where they were abused, often sexually, as children.

Smich's family's on-going tolerance of his **** lifestyle and laziness suggests to me that they felt they couldn't ask him to behave like a normal adult and become a productive member of society. Their unwillingness to specify what happened to him is pretty normal in these circumstances, where people often feel a strong sense of shame about what went on even if they were in no way responsible for it.

While Smich's father being absent didn't help the problem, I'm far from convinced he was the source of it.

Also, people seem to overlook the fact, as testified to in court, that Matthew Ward-Jackson was a friend of Smich's older sister and would be at the house to visit her.

https://twitter.com/ShannonMartinTV/status/933394165571997699

 

[SnooperDuper]

I personally believe both Smich and MIllard experienced serious abuse as children, which is not in any way an excuse for their crimes. Many people who are abused do not go on to murder others for thrills. But serial killers almost always come from situations where they were abused, often sexually, as children.

But they appeared friendly gregarious and well-adjusted to so many other people - Millard a leader - these are not victim type personalities at all. They were quite dominant among their friends.

Maybe they just thought that what they were doing was "cool", in the case of LB and TB. WM was killed so that Millard could choose his own path in life instead of being an extension of another life, as he described it. I don't see victims doing things like this. These are strong personalities that did this.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Smich's family's on-going tolerance of his **** lifestyle and laziness suggests to me that they felt they couldn't ask him to behave like a normal adult and become a productive member of society. Their unwillingness to specify what happened to him is pretty normal in these circumstances, where people often feel a strong sense of shame about what went on even if they were in no way responsible for it.

There's no shortage of young men who collect welfare and live with their mama and sell drugs. It's the career path for those that flunked school but don't want to do physical labour or work at McDonalds on the highway. Perhaps if he was meeting his bills and not asking people for cash, and others didn't hear about the rest of it, others saw no problem. The bar is different: as long as you can pay your own way, you're productive enough.

The question is what made Smich so different from any of the thousands of other young men in his situation. He hooked up with Millard and the two bred a mob mentality among themselves. I think they were very willing to play the game understanding that they maximum penalty was 25 years. They faced no problem they couldn't handle in life until they got 50 years to parole.

 

[ABro]

But they appeared friendly gregarious and well-adjusted to so many other people - Millard a leader - these are not victim type personalities at all. They were quite dominant among their friends.

Maybe they just thought that what they were doing was "cool", in the case of LB and TB. WM was killed so that Millard could choose his own path in life instead of being an extension of another life, as he described it. I don't see victims doing things like this. These are strong personalities that did this.

It's a well known and documented fact that abusers almost always come from abusive families or home situations.

These people are victims as children and then go on to make victims of others.

The fact that you were a victim makes you more not less likely to victimize others.

ETA: Also, I'm also not sure where you're going here given that the numerous letters supporting Smich say he was a victim of abuse although they're all vague about it. Are you suggesting this isn't the case, that perhaps it was just a ploy for sympathy?

If you accept the allegations of abuse in the letters, then you need to reconcile them with your impressions of Smich as a leader of his dysfunctional posse and further accept the fact that victims actually do transform into victimizers. And those with strong personalities, who follow this path, are the ones who will likely inflict the most damage.

What you seem to be saying is that strong personalities can't be victims, which we all know is simply not the case.

 

[ABro]

There's no shortage of young men who collect welfare and live with their mama and sell drugs. It's the career path for those that flunked school but don't want to do physical labour or work at McDonalds on the highway. Perhaps if he was meeting his bills and not asking people for cash, and others didn't hear about the rest of it, others saw no problem. The bar is different: as long as you can pay your own way, you're productive enough.

The question is what made Smich so different from any of the thousands of other young men in his situation. He hooked up with Millard and the two bred a mob mentality among themselves. I think they were very willing to play the game understanding that they maximum penalty was 25 years. They faced no problem they couldn't handle in life until they got 50 years to parole.

The men who collect welfare, sponge off Mama and sell drugs don't usually have a mother who worked fulltime, bought an Oakville house, and a father who was an engineer. That's what makes Smich's situation so unusual. It would be much easier to understand if he grew up in the projects as part of a multigenerational welfare family.

Smich was in a downward spiral long before he met Millard.

 

[SnooperDuper]

The men who collect welfare, sponge off Mama and sell drugs don't usually have a mother who worked fulltime, bought an Oakville house, and a father who was an engineer. That's what makes Smich's situation so unusual. It would be much easier to understand if he grew up in the projects as part of a multigenerational welfare family.

If Smich came from a welfare background he might be happy living for today and being able to cover his expenses, but he came from more than that and wanted to be more than that. He wanted to be a famous gangster rapper and killing people (apparently, he imagined) is just one of the things you have to do to be that. He still wanted to excel and achieve. He wanted to be famous and notorious. He had a lot of ambition too.

 

[ABro]

If Smich came from a welfare background he might be happy living for today and being able to cover his expenses, but he came from more than that and wanted to be more than that. He wanted to be a famous gangster rapper and killing people (apparently, he imagined) is just one of the things you have to do to be that. He still wanted to excel and achieve. He wanted to be famous and notorious. He had a lot of ambition too.

Normal people -- including the vast majority of rappers -- don't want to gain fame by killing people. Something has to have gone very wrong for someone to aspire to behave the way Smich did. And it wasn't just that Millard came into his life. Millard tried very hard to groom Michalski and he couldn't turn him into a killer. He recognized that Michalski wasn't going to go there while Smich was.

You can keep insisting that this is just some kind of alternative rapper career goal that can be looked at in a vacuum along with other lifestyle alternatives, but it's not. Something has to have gone very wrong in your life to make you want to be a serial killer. And that something is very often childhood (sexual) abuse.

 

[winter2017]

There's zero proof the father had a history of violent abuse. It's something Dungey said in court. There's nothing to back it up in any of the letters. What lawyers say is not evidence.

Also, as mentioned by Forest_Wood above, the father was supposedly not in Smich's life so it's reasonable to ask who abused Smich if the father wasn't around.

I personally believe both Smich and MIllard experienced serious abuse as children, which is not in any way an excuse for their crimes. Many people who are abused do not go on to murder others for thrills. But serial killers almost always come from situations where they were abused, often sexually, as children.

Smich's family's on-going tolerance of his **** lifestyle and laziness suggests to me that they felt they couldn't ask him to behave like a normal adult and become a productive member of society. Their unwillingness to specify what happened to him is pretty normal in these circumstances, where people often feel a strong sense of shame about what went on even if they were in no way responsible for it.

While Smich's father being absent didn't help the problem, I'm far from convinced he was the source of it.

Also, people seem to overlook the fact, as testified to in court, that Matthew Ward-Jackson was a friend of Smich's older sister and would be at the house to visit her.

https://twitter.com/ShannonMartinTV/status/933394165571997699

i am mistaken I thought the gun dealer was MS's friend.

 

[winter2017]

Normal people -- including the vast majority of rappers -- don't want to gain fame by killing people. Something has to have gone very wrong for someone to aspire to behave the way Smich did. And it wasn't just that Millard came into his life. Millard tried very hard to groom Michalski and he couldn't turn him into a killer. He recognized that Michalski wasn't going to go there while Smich was.

You can keep insisting that this is just some kind of alternative rapper career goal that can be looked at in a vacuum along with other lifestyle alternatives, but it's not. Something has to have gone very wrong in your life to make you want to be a serial killer. And that something is very often childhood (sexual) abuse.

Something must have gone terribly wrong with him. His mother was hard working supported three children and he lived in a good neighbourhood in Oakville. I agree that he was was in trouble way before he met DM.

 

[ABro]

Something must have gone terribly wrong with him. His mother was hard working supported three children and he lived in a good neighbourhood in Oakville. I agree that he was was in trouble way before he met DM.

Again, careful with the details here. The father always paid child support.

And MWJ was a friend of both Smich and the sister over the course of many years. He testified that during the time period in question he was at the house to see the sister.