Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[SnooperDuper]

You can keep insisting that this is just some kind of alternative rapper career goal that can be looked at in a vacuum along with other lifestyle alternatives, but it's not. Something has to have gone very wrong in your life to make you want to be a serial killer. And that something is very often childhood (sexual) abuse.

I think 24 still qualifies as young and dumb, especially if drugs are involved. That doesn't absolve anyone of any guilt but that often explains a part.

I guess a question is why did Smich stupidly brag about killing - what did he get out of it? That was very chatty of him and that act did come back to hurt him...but he did it so he could have some rap credibility in front of some boys, as if that was so important. He needed the neighbourhood kids to know that he was a Real Gangsta Rapper.

In my view, Smich simply and wholeheartedly believed in Millard - believed in his power, invincibility, ability. Millard was a golden child who thought the world revolved around him and Smich agreed. He wanted to be Millard's number one guy, and Millard couldn't pull off his plans without someone. And their thing was (according to Smich) that they were D-man and Say-10, the personas that did gangster things, that would get fully loaded and pull off a mission; and Dellen and Mark the rest of the time, as if they were playing a game.

I see that Millard had a very elevated sense of self-worth: "I am heaven sent", "become the lord". When I see chubby Millard at 14 becoming the youngest Canadian to pilot a helicopter and fixed-wing aircraft I think of stories like this: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ssica-dubroff-small-plane-lisa-blair-hathaway I wonder if being pushed to pick up death-defying skills at a young age makes changes in the brain, in fearlessness. He certainly thinks of himself as very, very special. He is capable, but he sees himself as incredible, like no one has ever told him he has a flaw. I wonder if Millard wrote MB's letter to the court, especially as his mother may not have had a Lion King moment at his birth as the franchise launched 9 years afterwards. In his own letters from jail he talks about how different and unique he is to everyone there. It's illustrative.

You have to consider the impact of drugs on the psychology of these guys. They were both heavy partiers and they were into everything. It's a tremendous fantasy to think you're going to break into the music business (or become an actress, for that matter) at 24. I think Smich (and LB) were more into pursuing a lifestyle than bona fide careers to be honest. I think drugs create a kind cartoonish world. You can do things with no awareness of the implications or believe in an extended fantasy. I imagine they'd boost Millard's self-esteem into delusions of grandeur territory, as if he though he were a god.

I don't know if these guys were truly soulless or just incredibly selfish and arrogant and full of drugs. I think Smich saw them as having alter egos and wanted Millard to share in his fantasy. Millard saw himself as a big boss of the world, and didn't need to take on a childish persona to do what he did. He just was that way.

 

[ABro]

I don't know if these guys were truly soulless or just incredibly selfish and arrogant and full of drugs. I think Smich saw them as having alter egos and wanted Millard to share in his fantasy. Millard saw himself as a big boss of the world, and didn't need to take on a childish persona to do what he did. He just was that way.

Once again, Smich posed proudly in front of the incinerator as Laura's remains burned. He wrote a rap to boast about it. In other raps not entered into evidence, he talked about raping women with guns. He and Millard celebrated Tim Bosma's death.

If that doesn't qualify as "soulless" to you, nothing will.

You have to consider the impact of drugs on the psychology of these guys.

And you have to consider more than just the drugs. I'm sure the drugs didn't help, but they aren't the cause of what happened.

How many strung out druggies are convicted of first degree murder? Can you even name one case?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Once again, Smich posed proudly in front of the incinerator as Laura's remains burned. He wrote a rap to boast about it. In other raps not entered into evidence, he talked about raping women with guns. He and Millard celebrated Tim Bosma's death.

If that doesn't qualify as "soulless" to you, nothing will.

Well, what can I say. Just exploring the idea that Smich's problems were the character flaws common to youth and drugs, or something deeper.

And you have to consider more than just the drugs. I'm sure the drugs didn't help, but they aren't the cause of what happened.

How many strung out druggies are convicted of first degree murder? Can you even name one case?

Justin Bourque was a heavy pot user and became really paranoid and killed 3, wounded 2. Cody Legebokoff was a heavy crack and cocaine user that killed 4. Bruce McArthur was into amyl nitrate and killed...6. Jeremy Steinke drank and did a gram of cocaine before killing Jasmine Richardson's parents and brother. Some of the worst first degree murders are drug-fueled.

 

[jash]

DM will be in court tomorrow morning (361 University). Or at least his lawyer will be.

Party Name: MILLARD, DELLEN
Case Number: CR-16-50000176-0000
Short Title of Proceedings: R. v MILLARD
Time: 08:30 AM
Room: MOTIONROOM H
Appearance/Event Type: PRE-TRIAL

Party Name: MILLARD, DELLEN
Case Number: CR-16-50000176-0000
Short Title of Proceedings: R. v MILLARD
Time: 09:30 AM
Room: COURTROOM 4-7
Appearance/Event Type: TO BE SPOKEN TO

I'm not sure if we can start a new thread for the Wayne Millard murder trial, or if the mods have to. Anyone know?

 

[canadiangirl]

The men who collect welfare, sponge off Mama and sell drugs don't usually have a mother who worked fulltime, bought an Oakville house, and a father who was an engineer. That's what makes Smich's situation so unusual. It would be much easier to understand if he grew up in the projects as part of a multigenerational welfare family.

Smich was in a downward spiral long before he met Millard.

Are you certain about that or is it your opinion? Many many European children live at home until their 30s or until they are married. Mom still cooks for them and does their laundry. JMO from my experience in European families

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

 

[Forest_Wood]

Just like DM s mother blamed it all on other things that DM became a murderer. MS lived in a good neighbourhood in Oakville. Many of the families are professionals and kids go to private schools. I think he knew the gun dealer when he lived in Mississauga and he kept friends with him. Probably the gun dealer sold drugs also.
he was troubled before he moved to Oakville since he was good friends with a gun dealer.
They try to depict him as a doing very minor things to break the law, but he was going around to high school selling cigarettes and probably dealing drugs.
He was already in trouble before he met DM and even without DM I believe he would have got into more serious criminal things.
His father had a history of violence to the mother and daughter. I guess the traits were passed onto to MS.
MS made the choices he did and there is no one to blame but him.

Where did you learn about the father being violent towards the sister? I believe it was Dungey who said that the father had knocked the mother down stairs while she was pregnant with Mark. That in itself is horrific. That’s all I’ve read about the violence. I don’t know what age Mark was when the father left the family. Maybe the father was violent with them all. Certainly violence leaves its impact on the family unit with feelings of helplessness, fear, worthlessness and so on. Coping with all of that can lead to drug/alcohol abuse and other negative coping strategies. I noticed that the drug abuse was hardly focused on at all, and I think the drugs and alcohol have a lot to do with the choices they made.

 

[Forest_Wood]

I personally believe both Smich and MIllard experienced serious abuse as children, which is not in any way an excuse for their crimes. Many people who are abused do not go on to murder others for thrills. But serial killers almost always come from situations where they were abused, often sexually, as children.

I believe the same thing about Millard. When I first saw the photo of DM when he was a boy in the plane sitting on his father’s knee, I sensed something was not quite right about it. Can’t put my finger on it. I did not know that serial killers often come from abusive situations. Children with a history of being sexually abused often become promiscuous later on, not understanding the difference between love and sex. Millard was having sex with every woman that crossed his path, so it seemed.

 

[winter2017]

DM will be in court tomorrow morning (361 University). Or at least his lawyer will be.

Party Name: MILLARD, DELLEN
Case Number: CR-16-50000176-0000
Short Title of Proceedings: R. v MILLARD
Time: 08:30 AM
Room: MOTIONROOM H
Appearance/Event Type: PRE-TRIAL

Party Name: MILLARD, DELLEN
Case Number: CR-16-50000176-0000
Short Title of Proceedings: R. v MILLARD
Time: 09:30 AM
Room: COURTROOM 4-7
Appearance/Event Type: TO BE SPOKEN TO

I'm not sure if we can start a new thread for the Wayne Millard murder trial, or if the mods have to. Anyone know?

The trial for WM 's murder begins in April.

 

[winter2017]

Where did you learn about the father being violent towards the sister? I believe it was Dungey who said that the father had knocked the mother down stairs while she was pregnant with Mark. That in itself is horrific. That’s all I’ve read about the violence. I don’t know what age Mark was when the father left the family. Maybe the father was violent with them all. Certainly violence leaves its impact on the family unit with feelings of helplessness, fear, worthlessness and so on. Coping with all of that can lead to drug/alcohol abuse and other negative coping strategies. I noticed that the drug abuse was hardly focused on at all, and I think the drugs and alcohol have a lot to do with the choices they made.

At the sentencing hearing, I am sure one letter in support of MS said the daughter had been abused by the father and did an injury to her. I am on a group and the moderator posted the tweets from the hearing.

 

[ABro]

Well, what can I say. Just exploring the idea that Smich's problems were the character flaws common to youth and drugs, or something deeper.



Justin Bourque was a heavy pot user and became really paranoid and killed 3, wounded 2. Cody Legebokoff was a heavy crack and cocaine user that killed 4. Bruce McArthur was into amyl nitrate and killed...6. Jeremy Steinke drank and did a gram of cocaine before killing Jasmine Richardson's parents and brother. Some of the worst first degree murders are drug-fueled.

. I’m not going to google all those people because in the two that cases that I know about, the murderer (Justin Bourque) and alleged murderer (Bruce McArthur) were not strung out druggies at all.

Bourque appears to have mental health issues and McArthur was functioning at a level that allowed him to fool people for years.

I have no quarrel with the idea that criminals may be bigger users of drugs than non-criminals. My difference of opinion with you is I think their problems drive them to drugs and crime rather than drugs causing their problems and criminality. It’s a chicken/ egg question.

 

[ABro]

Are you certain about that or is it your opinion? Many many European children live at home until their 30s or until they are married. Mom still cooks for them and does their laundry. JMO from my experience in European families

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

There’s a difference between a functioning employed or studying child who lives at home into their 20s and a druggie loser who’s never held a job and sells drugs from the front porch and stores his gun in the washing machine. There’s almost certainly a reason why Smich’s family tolerated this kind of behaviour and didn’t expect more of him.

 

[jash]

The trial for WM 's murder begins in April.

I realize that, but I thought it might make sense to post/discuss DM's appearances for the upcoming trial in a dedicated thread rather than cluttering up the thread for Laura.

 

[SnooperDuper]

. I’m not going to google all those people because in the two that cases that I know about, the murderer (Justin Bourque) and alleged murderer (Bruce McArthur) were not strung out druggies at all.

Bourque appears to have mental health issues and McArthur was functioning at a level that allowed him to fool people for years.

I have no quarrel with the idea that criminals may be bigger users of drugs than non-criminals. My difference of opinion with you is I think their problems drive them to drugs and crime rather than drugs causing their problems and criminality. It’s a chicken/ egg question.

The idea that problems (trauma) lead to drug use (self medication) is only one metaphor of addiction. There are also the disease model and the choice model. For some people the initial problem they are trying to cure is boredom, and it's pointless to search for trauma in their lives.

Bourque's mental health issues probably arose (according to his psychiatric report) from the despair that comes from marijuana withdrawal. I count that as a murder under a drug's influence. He was a chronic pot smoker. Maybe time to look again at cases you know.

 

[winter2017]

I realize that, but I thought it might make sense to post/discuss DM's appearances for the upcoming trial in a dedicated thread rather than cluttering up the thread for Laura.

It is a good suggestion.

 

[nuff]

There’s a difference between a functioning employed or studying child who lives at home into their 20s and a druggie loser who’s never held a job and sells drugs from the front porch and stores his gun in the washing machine. There’s almost certainly a reason why Smich’s family tolerated this kind of behaviour and didn’t expect more of him.

And that reason would be ...? It puzzles me that the family tolerated his behaviour, even to the point of letting MM move in. Were they afraid of him?

 

[Grey-St]

But they appeared friendly gregarious and well-adjusted to so many other people - Millard a leader - these are not victim type personalities at all. They were quite dominant among their friends.

Maybe they just thought that what they were doing was "cool", in the case of LB and TB. WM was killed so that Millard could choose his own path in life instead of being an extension of another life, as he described it. I don't see victims doing things like this. These are strong personalities that did this.

I don't know where I stand on the notion that MS or DM were abused, but what I do know is that when your power has been taken away due to any form of abuse, it's very common for victims to then find ways to empower themselves later on. It's actually a form of self preservation. Sometimes this empowerment can be healthy, in terms of advocacy or helping others, and other times it can be extremely unhealthy, in terms of victimizing others, as it's familiar territory and in fact easier than persevering in positive ways.

Just my two cents.

 

[Grey-St]

The idea that problems (trauma) lead to drug use (self medication) is only one metaphor of addiction. There are also the disease model and the choice model. For some people the initial problem they are trying to cure is boredom, and it's pointless to search for trauma in their lives.

Bourque's mental health issues probably arose (according to his psychiatric report) from the despair that comes from marijuana withdrawal. I count that as a murder under a drug's influence. He was a chronic pot smoker. Maybe time to look again at cases you know.

For the most part, chronic drug use/addiction most certainly stems from trauma. If you're a healthy individual with no trauma history, you won't turn to substance use due to boredom. Even if someone chooses to use substances recreationally, it won't usually turn into chronic use/addiction. When it does, there's something else there.

I also find it hard to believe Bourque committed his murders because he smoked pot. He was a sick individual first, a pot smoker second.

 

[Grey-St]

And that reason would be ...? It puzzles me that the family tolerated his behaviour, even to the point of letting MM move in. Were they afraid of him?

I think what's being suggested is that he may have been subjected to some form of trauma. His family may have sympathized or empathized with him, giving him some leniency on his choices or behaviours.

 

[Forest_Wood]

For the most part, chronic drug use/addiction most certainly stems from trauma. If you're a healthy individual with no trauma history, you won't turn to substance use due to boredom. Even if someone chooses to use substances recreationally, it won't usually turn into chronic use/addiction. When it does, there's something else there.

I also find it hard to believe Bourque committed his murders because he smoked pot. He was a sick individual first, a pot smoker second.

I think many people underestimate the effect that intoxicants (toxic substances=poisons) have on a person’s thinking. Their on-going use changes a person’s thinking, feelings and behaviours.

Imagine drinking poison every single day from the age of say, 15 through 25. Imagine the downward spiral in thinking, reasoning and decision-making. Any mood-altering substance changes a person, even the THC in cannabis or Magic Mushrooms is another example of an hallucinagen.
A substance is used to help change a mood, to get excited, to come down, to get up, to sleep, to get excited, to change perception and so on.

Add to that everything else going on during those formative years (the brain developing until age 25, understanding sexuality, video-gaming, becoming an adult and on and on) and we have a cocktail of unpredictable actions that can, and do, take place. Substance (ab)use has become so normalized that we no longer question their impact.

I absolutely believe it plays a huge factor in people’s behaviour, just as trauma, family dynamics, abuse, and the list goes on.

 

[SnooperDuper]

For the most part, chronic drug use/addiction most certainly stems from trauma. If you're a healthy individual with no trauma history, you won't turn to substance use due to boredom. Even if someone chooses to use substances recreationally, it won't usually turn into chronic use/addiction. When it does, there's something else there.

I also find it hard to believe Bourque committed his murders because he smoked pot. He was a sick individual first, a pot smoker second.

Google "boredom substance abuse" and you'll find there is a whole lot written on the topic. I think people can have a really romantic view of addiction sometimes when the truth is far simpler.

Bourque ran out of money to buy pot (which was making him paranoid) and went into a downward mood spiral as a result and decided to take people out. Sure Bourque had issues to begin with, but pot is what tipped the balance.