Leslie Van Houten up for parole again

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Tuffgong said:
Yeah, but that evolution was a long time in the making. Kind of like with Manson. His message was well received in the community at first.
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BBM:

The community of lemmings, you mean?

I don't think people who get sucked into "Groupthink" should be given a pass for opting out of using their critical thinking skills.

Then again, I'm not a bobblehead, so there's that.

LVH is a bright human being. She does not have an intellectual disability.

She absolutely had the capacity to anticipate how "way leads unto way."

She chose her path, destructive as it was...where she finds herself now is via her own deliberate, violent, evil actions.

JMO.
 
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Has Leslie paid her debt to society? She's been in a loooong time. If she stays longer will she prevent someone else from committing the same type of crime or bring any of the victims back? NOPE. Is she likely to commit the same type of crime if she's released? Possible but doubtful. Is she entitled to spend her remaining days outside a prison wall?

I don't like Leslie. I understand why someone close to the murders wouldn't want her released. After twenty years, I had to ask myself these same questions about my stepson's murderer this year after fighting every five to three years to be certain he stayed in prison. She is entitled to parole. As is he. I don't have to like it. I don't like it but I do understand and accept.
 
GordianKnot said:
BBM:

The community of lemmings, you mean?

I don't think people who get sucked into "Groupthink" should be given a pass for opting out of using their critical thinking skills.

Then again, I'm not a bobblehead, so there's that.

LVH is a bright human being. She does not have an intellectual disability.

She absolutely had the capacity to anticipate how "way leads unto way."

She chose her path, destructive as it was...where she finds herself now is via her own deliberate, violent, evil actions.

JMO.
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I don't buy this at all. Their were so many communes during the Beatnik days and even more during the counterculture. None of those communes were associated with murdering people. Manson emulated those communes and drew people in. The first years were all about drugs and free love. Once again, the introduction of acid/LSD and mind control techniques made this arrangement different. I will go back to the culture of the time, people were going to these communes to escape the world that they had seen their parents "screw up" as they believed. I did not say lemmings. People are taken in by a charismatic leader, they are introduced to a new way of life, they are introduced to mind altering drugs, they are conditioned using the mind control techniques currently used by Scientology, etc. To imply that everybody, regardless of their background and history could properly protect themselves from what was happening is a bit naive. Nobody joined the family thinking I want to break into homes and murder people. That was something not posed to them. I think we are hitting an impasse here. But I have read extensively about how cults work, and it is not always losers and lemmings that get taken in and changed.
 
Tuffgong said:
I don't buy this at all. Their were so many communes during the Beatnik days and even more during the counterculture. None of those communes were associated with murdering people. Manson emulated those communes and drew people in. The first years were all about drugs and free love. Once again, the introduction of acid/LSD and mind control techniques made this arrangement different. I will go back to the culture of the time, people were going to these communes to escape the world that they had seen their parents "screw up" as they believed. I did not say lemmings. People are taken in by a charismatic leader, they are introduced to a new way of life, they are introduced to mind altering drugs, they are conditioned using the mind control techniques currently used by Scientology, etc. To imply that everybody, regardless of their background and history could properly protect themselves from what was happening is a bit naive. Nobody joined the family thinking I want to break into homes and murder people. That was something not posed to them. I think we are hitting an impasse here. But I have read extensively about how cults work, and it is not always losers and lemmings that get taken in and changed.
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RBBMFF:

Tuff, there's a reason the whole hippie movement got the tag "counter-culture."

The "Make Love, Not War, Hell, No, We Won't Go," tie-dye and moccasins bunch were not representative of the prevailing social norms of American society at the time. And the vast majority of that counterculture movement didn't go on murdering rampages, so there's that.

Re: people who join communes/cults like Manson's, in the bolded section above, if I replace the word "introduced" with the words"choose to pursue" then I agree with your statements.

See, we're not at such an impasse! There are just some points on which we respectfully agree to disagree.

The point of debate and argument is not to win, IMO. It is to learn.

It's obvious that you have studied cults a great deal, so I'm definitely processing what you're saying....not agreeing, but ingesting it as food for thought.
 
As a child of the 60’s although I was a college student , my husband did live in the Haight now and again because his friend had come back from Vietnam and was a mess.

The Haight was not all love and peace. It was filled with kids with huge issues. Lots of girls who ran away from home and now became the target of predators.

Lots of kids took drugs. How many became murderers?

If Helter Skelter is true, then it took a an unusual personality to join up with Manson. It is a good book to read.
 
human said:
As a child of the 60’s although I was a college student , my husband did live in the Haight now and again because his friend had come back from Vietnam and was a mess.

The Haight was not all love and peace. It was filled with kids with huge issues. Lots of girls who ran away from home and now became the target of predators.

Lots of kids took drugs. How many became murderers?

If Helter Skelter is true, then it took a an unusual personality to join up with Manson. It is a good book to read.
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I enjoyed the book Helter Skelter, but it is hardly an expose on the family or motivations for why what happened. In fact, Bugliosi's whole Helter Skelter concept was hogwash. Guinn's book The Life and Times is vastly superior in gaining an understanding of this event.
 
Perhaps if she had been an African American activist that killed a cop in Philadelphia we could all get behind her? She has served longer than 90% of people convicted of murder. If parole is for rehabilitated prisoners then she meets the qualifications AND THE PAROLE BOARD HAS SAID THIS! It is a politically motivated Governor that is stopping this from happening.
 
<modsnip>The woman has spent the vast majority of her life in prison for an event that happened when 65% of the population today was not even born.
 
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And can someone tell me what the point of parole boards is? Seriously, why do we have them?
 
Tuffgong said:
I enjoyed the book Helter Skelter, but it is hardly an expose on the family or motivations for why what happened. In fact, Bugliosi's whole Helter Skelter concept was hogwash. Guinn's book The Life and Times is vastly superior in gaining an understanding of this event.
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Why do you say that?
 
I can only assume that being a member of the parole board requires greater qualifications and expertise than anybody on this board, including me, has. I would imagine they make sure to act with caution. I would imagine if there were any question as to whether someone should be released, they would not release them. I would imagine that their knowledge of this case and the inmate in question goes beyond anybody's. So, if that body, unanimously believes Leslie should be released, she probably should be released. That is all I am saying.
 
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