Lies point us to the truth #2

[Rain on my Parade]

Because he likely didn't eat from that bowl. Having family fingerprints on dishes in a house does not mean said family member was the last to touch it. The bowl was out and used a few days earlier per photo evidence.

FergusMcDuck,

What do the timing of the photos have to do with BR eating from the bowl? His prints along with PR prints are found on said bowl. No one else’s. PR can’t make BR pick up his wood shavings from the floor much less put up dishes!

JonBenet also ate grapes and cherries, which were found with the pineapple in her duodenum. There were no grapes and cherries in the bowl. The bowl also has a serving spoon in it. Schiler's book says that the victim advocates went out and bought bagels and fruit, and we see from the crime scene video that they were using dishes from the house to serve them. As far as I'm concerned, that explains the serving spoon.

I don’t recall ever seeing a crime scene video that shows fruit and dishes other then the one on the breakfast room table (the one JB ate from). Will you please share said video with us?

Some of those who examined the photos claimed that, yes. There wasn't a universal opinion that she was abused before that night.

This does not mean she was not abused. Please check out the reference to her hymen.

What stumps me with that number is the lack of swelling. A head wound bleeds profusely because damage to the brain causes the body to pump blood up there, bringing oxygen to the brain being the most essential part of the circulatory system. Since the skin didn't break there should have been massive amounts of blood and swelling up there, yet the head wound went unnoticed until the autopsy. The only thing I can think of that would harmonize the two is that if the strangling was very protracted, stifling the blood flow while not immediately killing her - and I'm not sure I want to think about that.

Have you considered that JB was initially strangled then immediately hit on the head with the flashlight. PR had to have known about the head bash as did BR as he told Dr.B. After all she added another pony tail to JB which was completely unnecessary act for getting ready for bed!

Photos show the snow being patchy and easily avoidable. There certainly wasn't any snow on the grate or in the window well. A flashlight could easily be used for illumination.

From the intact spider webs to the undisturbed leaves we can deduce the window wasn’t used as a planned entrance or exit point. This is merely staged. LHP entire family was down there Thanksgiving moving all those trees to the upstairs. They nor she noticed the window being broken.

It makes sense if the criminal's experience was all from watching movies and he thought using the stun gun would just drop her immediately. As for the train track, even if the spacing matched, how is one of those supposed to have created the abrasions on her skin? Abrasions that lasted for a whole day and more?

Not only that, but one of the marks was where the tape had been, and there is evidence that it was applied over the tape, a "micro-sized white substance located over the stun gun mark on JonBenet’s right cheek. The white adhesive is visible in this photograph. This is important information because it means JonBenet was stun-gunned over the duct tape on her mouth, which caused the adhesive on the duct tape to melt and adhere to her face.” - Injustice, Whitson

I would never say the stun gun theory is proven, but I do think it has a lot more going for it than the train track theory, which is just absurd in my opinion.

Apparently there is a male and female connector on the train tracks n which JB could have been poked with. As for the duct tape, my bet is it came from the back of an American girl doll whose stuffing was found on the wc floor.

So there's some uncertainty there still.

Here you are referring to the maglite. Both PR and JR stated it looks like the one they kept in a drawer @ the wet bar, but unrecognizable because of the fingerprint residue. So, we should ask ourselves why JR stated he put BR to bed that night using his flashlight.

Indictments are incredibly easy to get from a Grand Jury, that's where the whole "ham sandwich" comes from - a Grand Jury would indict a ham sandwich. The thing is all they have to establish is probable cause, and they rely on only what the police and prosecution show them. A prosecutor, however, has to show guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to win a case. Hunter obviously felt he couldn't do that, and given what we know now it's hard to disagree.

I believe the key here is they could not establish who did what.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

What do the timing of the photos have to do with BR eating from the bowl? His prints along with PR prints are found on said bowl. No one else’s. PR can’t make BR pick up his wood shavings from the floor much less put up dishes!

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.

I don’t recall ever seeing a crime scene video that shows fruit and dishes other then the one on the breakfast room table (the one JB ate from). Will you please share said video with us?

Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.

This does not mean she was not abused. Please check out the reference to her hymen.

And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.

Have you considered that JB was initially strangled then immediately hit on the head with the flashlight. PR had to have known about the head bash as did BR as he told Dr.B. After all she added another pony tail to JB which was completely unnecessary act for getting ready for bed!

Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.

From the intact spider webs to the undisturbed leaves we can deduce the window wasn’t used as a planned entrance or exit point. This is merely staged. LHP entire family was down there Thanksgiving moving all those trees to the upstairs. They nor she noticed the window being broken.

From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).

Apparently there is a male and female connector on the train tracks n which JB could have been poked with. As for the duct tape, my bet is it came from the back of an American girl doll whose stuffing was found on the wc floor.

Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.

Here you are referring to the maglite. Both PR and JR stated it looks like the one they kept in a drawer @ the wet bar, but unrecognizable because of the fingerprint residue. So, we should ask ourselves why JR stated he put BR to bed that night using his flashlight.

Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.

I believe the key here is they could not establish who did what.

And that would make prosecution impossible.

 

[dgfred]

Nah... there were only two to prosecute. Both being there makes at least one a killer or cover-up suspect, same for the other. Whether participate or cover up still makes both guilty IMO.

 

[dgfred]

Like the bank robber/killer and the getaway driver both get convicted of the same thing.

 

[Case Cracker]

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.



Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.



And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.



Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.



From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).



Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.



Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.



And that would make prosecution impossible.

Hi, definitely a great thought to ponder on FergusMcDuck.. re the pineapple but it was found in the dining room with milk in it. My understanding is, that's more of a southern Pasty thing to serve pineapple and milk certainly not a Cororado tradition. Also take a look at the table, there is an empty glass with a tea bag in it and box of tissues. If people were putting out food to eat that day, why aren't the bagels etc in the dining room next to the pineapple and no partially or empty serving dishes ? That or you'd expect the pineapple (and milk in it) to be in the kitchen with everything else the victim support workers prepared and served on the kitchen bench. It doesn't make sense nor that they'd know to make a dish the why Pasty did... from her Prime of miss Jean Brody story.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Hi, definitely a great thought to ponder on FergusMcDuck.. re the pineapple but it was found in the dining room with milk in it.

See, that's the problem. I have not been able to find a proper source for there being milk in the bowl. All the early reports and books only speak of pineapple. Milk doesn't appear until much later, as far as I can tell, as in 20 years after the murder.

My understanding is, that's more of a southern Pasty thing to serve pineapple and milk certainly not a Cororado tradition.

I've never found a single source that said Patsy ever served that, or that the children liked it, or even that it is a "southern" thing. It just seems to be a myth that gets repeated enough that everyone accepts it as fact.

Also take a look at the table, there is an empty glass with a tea bag in it and box of tissues. If people were putting out food to eat that day, why aren't the bagels etc in the dining room next to the pineapple and no partially or empty serving dishes ? That or you'd expect the pineapple (and milk in it) to be in the kitchen with everything else the victim support workers prepared and served on the kitchen bench.

Obviously, I can't tell exactly how the serving was done, but there's more bowls at a table by the wall (next to the dining table where the pineapple bowl was). My guess is that the victim advocates were in the process of moving the (likely untouched) dishes back to the kitchen when something interrupted them. Or they just forgot some of them. They were there until lunch, according to Schiller, leaving for lunch just before JonBenet was found. I'll try to find it, but I do seem to recall the priest mentioning making tea for himself at the Ramseys, meaning the bag could be his, though I won't swear by it until I find the source.

It doesn't make sense nor that they'd know to make a dish the why Pasty did... from her Prime of miss Jean Brody story.

I do think that's where the myth started. Someone found a book Patsy had quoted from, dug up a reference to pineapple from it, and from there invented a hypothesis that Patsy had modelled her kid's dessert choices after the book. So the white mold and the bowl shining through the pineapple chunks in the photos/videos becomes a dairy product (even John seemed to have been fooled by this).

 

[Case Cracker]

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.



Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.



And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.



Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.



From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).



Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.



Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.



And that would make prosecution impossible.

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.



Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.



And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.



Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.



From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).



Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.



Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.



And that would make prosecution impossible.

Re the basement window. I have to agree with many of the experts here such as James Kolar. The grate which covers the small narrow confined window well was difficult to see from the alley as it ran behind the residence while a large covered bbq grill further obscured its view from the rear of the house. The window well was a confined space of just 77 inches length 16 inches in width, 45 inches deep. Inside the window sat 4 feet above the floor. Outside above basement level, the grate depicted clusters of pine needles, leaves and vegetation sitting atop of the grate . These certainly would of been displaced if the grate had been recently lifted. James Kolar Foreign Faction Pg 234. Furthermore as Kolar states in his book... The triangular cobweb was a significant size and very likely to of been destroyed if someone climbed through that small window. There are pictures online and in Kolars book that clearly show Smit who appears to be a small stature, entirely fills up the window area. However, police found the fragile cobweb was still in its entirely with no pine needles, nor leaves on the basement floor ( maybe someone cleaned up before they left.. just like how john initially stated he found a chair was placed in front of the basement room door despite that being impossible to do once you close the door behind you. I belive the house keeper would of noticed this broken window when she went down there to bring the Xmas trees up. Pasty stated Linda cleaned up the broken glass when John broke the window over summer yet Linda stated she didn't. The Basement Window -- Part 3

 

[Case Cracker]

See, that's the problem. I have not been able to find a proper source for there being milk in the bowl. All the early reports and books only speak of pineapple. Milk doesn't appear until much later, as far as I can tell, as in 20 years after the murder.



I've never found a single source that said Patsy ever served that, or that the children liked it, or even that it is a "southern" thing. It just seems to be a myth that gets repeated enough that everyone accepts it as fact.



Obviously, I can't tell exactly how the serving was done, but there's more bowls at a table by the wall (next to the dining table where the pineapple bowl was). My guess is that the victim advocates were in the process of moving the (likely untouched) dishes back to the kitchen when something interrupted them. Or they just forgot some of them. They were there until lunch, according to Schiller, leaving for lunch just before JonBenet was found. I'll try to find it, but I do seem to recall the priest mentioning making tea for himself at the Ramseys, meaning the bag could be his, though I won't swear by it until I find the source.



I do think that's where the myth started. Someone found a book Patsy had quoted from, dug up a reference to pineapple from it, and from there invented a hypothesis that Patsy had modelled her kid's dessert choices after the book. So the white mold and the bowl shining through the pineapple chunks in the photos/videos becomes a dairy product (even John seemed to have been fooled by this).

You only need to look at the photos and see the milk in the bowl and what is and isn't on the table.

See, that's the problem. I have not been able to find a proper source for there being milk in the bowl. All the early reports and books only speak of pineapple. Milk doesn't appear until much later, as far as I can tell, as in 20 years after the murder.



I've never found a single source that said Patsy ever served that, or that the children liked it, or even that it is a "southern" thing. It just seems to be a myth that gets repeated enough that everyone accepts it as fact.



Obviously, I can't tell exactly how the serving was done, but there's more bowls at a table by the wall (next to the dining table where the pineapple bowl was). My guess is that the victim advocates were in the process of moving the (likely untouched) dishes back to the kitchen when something interrupted them. Or they just forgot some of them. They were there until lunch, according to Schiller, leaving for lunch just before JonBenet was found. I'll try to find it, but I do seem to recall the priest mentioning making tea for himself at the Ramseys, meaning the bag could be his, though I won't swear by it until I find the source.



I do think that's where the myth started. Someone found a book Patsy had quoted from, dug up a reference to pineapple from it, and from there invented a hypothesis that Patsy had modelled her kid's dessert choices after the book. So the white mold and the bowl shining through the pineapple chunks in the photos/videos becomes a dairy product (even John seemed to have been fooled by this).

Take a look at the pics on A candy rose , you will see milk in the dish. I found reading James Kolar and Steve Thomas's book extremely enlightening as theyve worked on this case and have all information at their fingertips tips. Also reading what the FBI had to say regarding this case and never in history have they ever seen a Ransom note the size of this one nor anything like it.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.

FergusMcDuck,
PR told LHP to pickup after BR because she refused to ask BR to do it.

Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.

I fail to see fruit as you mentioned in these photos. The spoon that was in the bowl was PR good silver. I am sure it was kept in the dining room or hutch in the breakfast room not in the kitchen. The advocates wouldn’t know to look in there.

And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.

The entire scene was staged to cover up the SA. Otherwise they could have taken JB to the ER.

Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.

Again, you really must go back to the drawing board.
Go to youtube 1997 interview. He states “He knows what happened”. *Note- this was 13 days after the murder took place.

The extra ponytail was an unnecessary procedure especially for a child that was so knocked out upon arriving home she didn’t wake when her mom undressed, redressed her and the put her hair in another ponytail with green garland in it!

Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

It is possible to produce those abrasions using the train tracks.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.

We aren’t guessing here:
Go to: www.forumsforjustice.org Jonbenet’s American girl doll and you can read all about the doll, the stuffing etc. You should really read up on this case more.

From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).

What is important here is that the spiders were dormant in the winter. You could not have crawled through the window without disturbing them.

As for the broken glass in the train room, you proved my point.

Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.

Go to YouTube -

Dr. Phil S15E02 (The JonBenet Ramsey Murder Part 2) Brother Burke and the Secret Interrogation Tapes​

Dr.P referencing JR stating he used the flashlight to put BR to bed that night.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Re the basement window. I have to agree with many of the experts here such as James Kolar. The grate which covers the small narrow confined window well was difficult to see from the alley as it ran behind the residence while a large covered bbq grill further obscured its view from the rear of the house. The window well was a confined space of just 77 inches length 16 inches in width, 45 inches deep. Inside the window sat 4 feet above the floor. Outside above basement level, the grate depicted clusters of pine needles, leaves and vegetation sitting atop of the grate . These certainly would of been displaced if the grate had been recently lifted. James Kolar Foreign Faction Pg 234. Furthermore as Kolar states in his book...

I linked to a video in my earlier comment, and if that was the spiderweb in question it was a lot smaller and avoidable than I would have guessed from the comments.

The triangular cobweb was a significant size and very likely to of been destroyed if someone climbed through that small window. There are pictures online and in Kolars book that clearly show Smit who appears to be a small stature, entirely fills up the window area. However, police found the fragile cobweb was still in its entirely with no pine needles, nor leaves on the basement floor ( maybe someone cleaned up before they left.. just like how john initially stated he found a chair was placed in front of the basement room door despite that being impossible to do once you close the door behind you.

I personally don't believe the killer left through the window, so that doesn't matter to me.

I belive the house keeper would of noticed this broken window when she went down there to bring the Xmas trees up. Pasty stated Linda cleaned up the broken glass when John broke the window over summer yet Linda stated she didn't. The Basement Window -- Part 3

Actually, she says she picked up the broken glass and had Linda sweep and/or vacuum down there.

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, yes. When I came back, you know, from the lake, I mean there was glass everywhere all over the floor, and I cleaned out -- picked up pieces of glass, you know. He never cleaned it up, obviously, and cleaned it up, and I had Linda sweep down there because the kids, the boys would sometimes play in here.

PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.

TT: Um hum.

PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.

TT: Okay.

PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.

Linda originally stated that she didn't remember:

The Ramsey housekeeper did not remember anything about the broken glass in the train room, the scuff mark on the wall or cleaning up glass underneath the broken window. (BPD Report #1-1068.)

You only need to look at the photos and see the milk in the bowl and what is and isn't on the table. View attachment 383884

Take a look at the pics on A candy rose , you will see milk in the dish.

You mean the white mold on top?

I found reading James Kolar and Steve Thomas's book extremely enlightening as theyve worked on this case and have all information at their fingertips tips. Also reading what the FBI had to say regarding this case and never in history have they ever seen a Ransom note the size of this one nor anything like it.

That depends on how far back they looked. Leopold and Loeb wrote a ransom note that was 310 words long (compared to the Ramsey note at 353) for a kidnapping of a child in 1924. The content and tone is similar to the Ramsey note. Also, just like in the Ramsey case, Leopold and Loeb killed the child immediately. They had always intended to do so.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,
PR told LHP to pickup after BR because she refused to ask BR to do it.


I fail to see fruit as you mentioned in these photos. The spoon that was in the bowl was PR good silver. I am sure it was kept in the dining room or hutch in the breakfast room not in the kitchen. The advocates wouldn’t know to look in there.

The bagels are there, and a paper bag. As for the spoon:

TOM HANEY: The spoon, where is it kept?

PATSY RAMSEY: In the silverware drawer in there in the kitchen to the right of the range. But, see, if the kids were making a snack for themselves, even if they were, that is a huge serving spoon. They, you know, they use a little spoon. Now, I don't know if some of those women, you know, Priscilla and them were there that morning, it was early, and I don't know whether they were, you know, fixing things for people to eat, but that doesn't look right to me.

The entire scene was staged to cover up the SA. Otherwise they could have taken JB to the ER.

Do you mean the SA that night? Or the hypothetical earlier SA? If the former, she was assaulted with part of a paintbrush, another part of which was used to make the garrote. It seems unlikely that the two were separate in time and space.

If the latter, Patsy took JonBenet to the doctor on more than two dozen occasions in the year prior. I don't think they felt anything needed covering up.

Again, you really must go back to the drawing board.
Go to youtube 1997 interview. He states “He knows what happened”. *Note- this was 13 days after the murder took place.

Sure, but "he knows what happened" could easily mean he knew she was killed, not just dead. He obviously didn't know the cause of death since he talked about stabbing as well as hitting on the head with a hammer.

The extra ponytail was an unnecessary procedure especially for a child that was so knocked out upon arriving home she didn’t wake when her mom undressed, redressed her and the put her hair in another ponytail with green garland in it!

I think the green garland is easier to explain by the killer carrying JonBenet down the spiral staircase.

It is possible to produce those abrasions using the train tracks.

Is it? Because the difference between a stun gun and a piece of train track is that there is electricity coming out of the prongs of the former. That's what causes the abrasions seen on both JonBenet and the other photo I linked to earlier. Poking someone with a train track might cause bruising. If you stab with it hard enough it might even break skin and cause bleeding (depending on whether the prongs are sharp or not). However, neither of those were what was found on JonBenet. Also the white film on one of the marks on JonBenet's face right where the tape would have been can be explained by a stun gun applied over the tape, but not by a train track.

We aren’t guessing here:
Go to: www.forumsforjustice.org Jonbenet’s American girl doll and you can read all about the doll, the stuffing etc. You should really read up on this case more.

I mean it is guessing. No shame in it, I'm doing the same here. Since we don't have all the info, that's what we have to do to envision complete scenarios.

I read up on the doll theory, and I don't find it persuasive.

Go to YouTube -

Dr. Phil S15E02 (The JonBenet Ramsey Murder Part 2) Brother Burke and the Secret Interrogation Tapes​

Dr.P referencing JR stating he used the flashlight to put BR to bed that night.

Yes, I know about that. However, I was asking for where John had said it. Because, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust Dr Phil to relay facts correctly in any matter.

 

[Case Cracker]

I linked to a video in my earlier comment, and if that was the spiderweb in question it was a lot smaller and avoidable than I would have guessed from the comments.



I personally don't believe the killer left through the window, so that doesn't matter to me.



Actually, she says she picked up the broken glass and had Linda sweep and/or vacuum down there.





Linda originally stated that she didn't remember:





You mean the white mold on top?



That depends on how far back they looked. Leopold and Loeb wrote a ransom note that was 310 words long (compared to the Ramsey note at 353) for a kidnapping of a child in 1924. The content and tone is similar to the Ramsey note. Also, just like in the Ramsey case, Leopold and Loeb killed the child immediately. They had always intended to do so.

White mould ???? Seriously??? Pineapple ( and if we take your thoughts here that it didn't have milk or cream in it ..unlike what others state) Pineapple alone...would not grow white mould within 1 or 2 days. Looking at these answers here, I strongly make the same recommendation as another poster has to you in doing further research. James Kolar who worked on the case has an excellent book full of facts just like Steve Thomas.

 

[Case Cracker]

The bagels are there, and a paper bag. As for the spoon:





Do you mean the SA that night? Or the hypothetical earlier SA? If the former, she was assaulted with part of a paintbrush, another part of which was used to make the garrote. It seems unlikely that the two were separate in time and space.

If the latter, Patsy took JonBenet to the doctor on more than two dozen occasions in the year prior. I don't think they felt anything needed covering up.



Sure, but "he knows what happened" could easily mean he knew she was killed, not just dead. He obviously didn't know the cause of death since he talked about stabbing as well as hitting on the head with a hammer.



I think the green garland is easier to explain by the killer carrying JonBenet down the spiral staircase.



Is it? Because the difference between a stun gun and a piece of train track is that there is electricity coming out of the prongs of the former. That's what causes the abrasions seen on both JonBenet and the other photo I linked to earlier. Poking someone with a train track might cause bruising. If you stab with it hard enough it might even break skin and cause bleeding (depending on whether the prongs are sharp or not). However, neither of those were what was found on JonBenet. Also the white film on one of the marks on JonBenet's face right where the tape would have been can be explained by a stun gun applied over the tape, but not by a train track.



I mean it is guessing. No shame in it, I'm doing the same here. Since we don't have all the info, that's what we have to do to envision complete scenarios.

I read up on the doll theory, and I don't find it persuasive.



Yes, I know about that. However, I was asking for where John had said it. Because, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust Dr Phil to relay facts correctly in

White mould ???? Seriously??? Pineapple ( and if we take your thoughts here that it didn't have milk or cream in it ..unlike what others state) Pineapple alone...would not grow white mould within 1 or 2 days. Looking at these answers here, I strongly make the same recommendation as another poster has to you in doing further research. James Kolar who worked on the case has an excellent book full of facts just like Steve Thomas.

So you honestly believe an intruder is going to carry a 6 years old child down a challenging narrow spiral staircase? When there was a normal staircase in the house. Green garland was in the basement from storing the Xmas trees also could of come from the lounge floor.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

White mould ???? Seriously??? Pineapple ( and if we take your thoughts here that it didn't have milk or cream in it ..unlike what others state) Pineapple alone...would not grow white mould within 1 or 2 days. Looking at these answers here, I strongly make the same recommendation as another poster has to you in doing further research. James Kolar who worked on the case has an excellent book full of facts just like Steve Thomas.

Yes, seriously. The pictures were taken after several days, and mold doesn't grow on a schedule, but depends on the surface, the temperature and the environment. It can appear after only a day, or it can not appear at all.

Who are the others stating there was milk or cream in it? I have looked all over, but can't find anyone. Not Steve Thomas, not Lawrence Schiller, not anyone involved in the actual case. There's no mention in any police or expert reports. If you have any source for this, I'd be delighted, but just like the idea that Patsy or the kids liked or served this dish, it appears to be a myth.

 

[Case Cracker]

I linked to a video in my earlier comment, and if that was the spiderweb in question it was a lot smaller and avoidable than I would have guessed from the comments.



I personally don't believe the killer left through the window, so that doesn't matter to me.



Actually, she says she picked up the broken glass and had Linda sweep and/or vacuum down there.





Linda originally stated that she didn't remember:





You mean the white mold on top?



That depends on how far back they looked. Leopold and Loeb wrote a ransom note that was 310 words long (compared to the Ramsey note at 353) for a kidnapping of a child in 1924. The content and tone is similar to the Ramsey note. Also, just like in the Ramsey case, Leopold and Loeb killed the child immediately. They had always intended to do so.

Lou Smit of small stature filled up the entire window frame while struggling to get in. There is no way even a s mall cobweb would still be intact after such. Not any of the numerous leaves, dirt and pine needles entering the room after standing in the window well trying to get through that small window . No evidence whatsoever bought in on the intruders shoes.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

So you honestly believe an intruder is going to carry a 6 years old child down a challenging narrow spiral staircase? When there was a normal staircase in the house. Green garland was in the basement from storing the Xmas trees also could of come from the lounge floor.

Yes, I see no reason it wouldn't work. The spiral staircase is the closest descent from JonBenet's room and doesn't take her close to Burke's room or right beneath the parents.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The bagels are there, and a paper bag. As for the spoon:

Yes, but you mentioned the advocates also brought fruit.

TOM HANEY: The spoon, where is it kept?

PATSY RAMSEY: In the silverware drawer in there in the kitchen to the right of the range. But, see, if the kids were making a snack for themselves, even if they were, that is a huge serving spoon. They, you know, they use a little spoon. Now, I don't know if some of those women, you know, Priscilla and them were there that morning, it was early, and I don't know whether they were, you know, fixing things for people to eat, but that doesn't look right to me.

Okay, I will give credit where it is due. But, doesn’t it make more since that BR or JB grabbed the oversized spoon? Especially because BR prints are on the glass and the bowl. I.e. no advocates latent prints. I don’t know why they haven’t given results for the spoon prints otherwise, unless they belonged to JB?

I mean it is guessing. No shame in it, I'm doing the same here.

Sure there is so much about this case that is sitting in a vault somewhere. Wouldn’t it just be phenomenal if we could just insist on opening those doors?

Poking someone with a train track might cause bruising. If you stab with it hard enough it might even break skin and cause bleeding (depending on whether the prongs are sharp or not). However, neither of those were what was found on JonBenet. Also the white film on one of the marks on JonBenet's face right where the tape would have been can be explained by a stun gun applied over the tape, but not by a train track.

Keep in mind that the autopsy report speaks of abrasions; there is no reference to burns.

Kolar used a female subject to test his theory
One of my female officers, Christine Sandoval, volunteered to be a beta tester
[snip]
The pins of the track left red marks when sufficient pressure was applied, and I suspected that the twisting motion of the twin outside rails could have been responsible for the appearance of an abrasion, especially when considering that the target area was the soft skin of a 6-year-old girls back.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 385 386

There is a photo on page 386 of kolars book that shows a scaled one-to-one image of the abrasions with an overlay of the track ends (with the middle pin missing, it was said that the pins fall out of these easily) found on JB's back. Looks to be a match.


Cynic: Right. That is why I think the taser company knew these marks were not caused by a stun gun, and why the ME did not mention a burn. Because the marks were not caused by something that had electricity or a current, ie a stun gun.

Do you mean the SA that night? Or the hypothetical earlier SA? If the former, she was assaulted with part of a paintbrush, another part of which was used to make the garrote. It seems unlikely that the two were separate in time and space.

If the latter, Patsy took JonBenet to the doctor on more than two dozen occasions in the year prior. I don't think they felt anything needed covering up.

McDuck,
There was cellulose material found in JB vault. I do not recall a mention of it originating from the ligature paintbrush. Would you provide, please?
Sure PR took JB to the doctor many times over. There has to be other reasons beside bubble bath. And the good Dr. deposed of her records. Isn’t that unlawful and punishable?

I read up on the doll theory, and I don't find it persuasive.

Even though you behead the doll, remove the stuffing, and given directive to put duck tape on the back of the doll, to keep the cords down, that kept her head on?
I don’t think the woman that (worked at the call center) took the order/orders, was lying.

Yes, I know about that. However, I was asking for where John had said it. Because, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust Dr Phil to relay facts correctly in any matter.

Not finding this. Will have to research further. Nevertheless, he did say it. It’s a part of this history.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Yes, but you mentioned the advocates also brought fruit.

Yes, that was stated in Lawrence Schiller's book. The victim advocates went out to get "bagels and fruit". We then see a setup with bagels on a plate, and a bowl with fruit and a serving spoon.

Okay, I will give credit where it is due. But, doesn’t it make more since that BR or JB grabbed the oversized spoon? Especially because BR prints are on the glass and the bowl. I.e. no advocates latent prints. I don’t know why they haven’t given results for the spoon prints otherwise, unless they belonged to JB?

If one of the children wanted to eat it, I'd question them grabbing any of the utensils. Dumping all the pineapple in a bowl and eating with an oversized spoon seems less likely to me than just eating out of the container, especially if this was some secret night snack (as it would have to be).

The thing about fingerprints is that they don't appear as often as we think, and when they do they are often partial or smudged. I don't think we can judge anything from their abscence, nor do I think we can judge much from prints being present on household objects from the family living there. If there were Ramsey prints on the flashlight, though? Or maybe even on the baseball bat.

Sure there is so much about this case that is sitting in a vault somewhere. Wouldn’t it just be phenomenal if we could just insist on opening those doors?

I absolutely agree, and I hope the cold case team can do something here.

With regards to the Stun Gun, forensic pathologist Michael Doberson who had done work with stun guns on pigs for a case in 1994, was convinced the marks on JonBenet were "most consistent" with a stun gun. Also this:

When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenét’s face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun. - Lawrence Schiller: Perfect Murder, Perfect Town ch 21

McDuck,
There was cellulose material found in JB vault. I do not recall a mention of it originating from the ligature paintbrush. Would you provide, please?

That was a hypothesis from the experts' examinations. I don't think it was ever proven to be so, though I personally find it likely.

Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet's vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards. Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator's finger before he or she penetrated JonBenet vaginally. It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her. - Lawrence Schiller: Perfect Murder, Perfect Town ch 30

Sure PR took JB to the doctor many times over. There has to be other reasons beside bubble bath. And the good Dr. deposed of her records. Isn’t that unlawful and punishable?

Patsy almost died of cancer not long before JonBenet's murder. I don't find it weird that she was hyperobsessive over her children's health. I don't know about the records - a lot of that is pretty murky, with what the police got and what they didn't.

Even though you behead the doll, remove the stuffing, and given directive to put duck tape on the back of the doll, to keep the cords down, that kept her head on?
I don’t think the woman that (worked at the call center) took the order/orders, was lying.

Sorry, still don't see a connection. As I recall, the tape was produced fairly close to the murder.

Not finding this. Will have to research further. Nevertheless, he did say it. It’s a part of this history.

I'd appreciate it. I've been digging around for a long time and coming up empty.

 

[proust20]

Denials of the timeline and even denials of actual evidence, such as the autopsy, is an all too common approach by the Rs to divert attention from difficult questions, e.g., Who knew about the extra size 12s and where to find them? Why would intruder(s) put tape over JonBenet"s mouth after death? How did Patsy's fibers become enmeshed in the ligature fashioned with her own paintbrush? What was the business meeting in GA that John wanted to fly out to after finding JB?

Indeed, the Rs cannot be straight forward even about the seemingly minor detail of the packages with torn wrapping.

The Maglite was recognized by LHP, and others. JAR knew he gave it to them. Why would the Rs at first try to squirm out of this admission? Did the intruder(s) wipe its batteries clean?

Burke's fingerprints were also on the glass with tea next to the bowl. He introduced the knife into the events in his interview with Dr. Bernhard. ("I know what happened.") He demonstrated whacking JB on the head.

BR changed the story to JonBenet walking upstairs into the house. Take our pick. He also altered events to going back downstairs for a toy. At what time was that? Did he go into the kitchen? Apparently he was not tired.

Much evidence remains unreleased, particularly about the final assault. We do not know what was presented to the GJ. The GJ knows more about the case than anyone, outside of LE. Dismissing their decisions as prefunctory does them a disservice. Child endangerment for each parent! Things in their view had crossed the line. What if the parents themselves had appeared before the GJ? lol The unseemly pageants are an indication of JonBenet's treatment and given identity within the extended family.

The Rs were never tried in court; and so, it cannot be determined if the case were winnable or not. At trial, the facts and testimony that led to the indictments would come out. Who can say what they are? Of course, a DA office which does not want a conviction is a good indicator of the outcome. Money you got lots of friends crowding round your door.

 

[proust20]

JonBenet was the victim of three violent crimes in a matter of hours. Around these atrocities an elaborate staging was constructed. Part of this involved a bizarre RN. The motivation for the enormity is obscure.

All of this is enough to consider. The over-all arc of what occurred on Christmas night is the main focus.